Ep. 108: How to get your Authorization to Carry - ATCThis is an addendum to the popular Silvercore Podcast 107 episode. Make sure to download if you haven't already. In addition to his massive success in business, Sean Zubor is an aspiring pilot and trapper and seized the opportunity quiz Travis. - How can a person get an authorization to carry a handgun in Canada? - Can handguns still be purchased in Canada? - Are hunters and firearms owners doing enough to advocate for themselves? - What is the role of Canada's advocacy groups and how can we all work together? Tune in for insight that hasn't been publicly discussed in the past.
How to get your ATC -Pro Discussion
[00:00:00] Travis Bader: I'm Travis Bader, and this is the Silvercore podcast. Silvercore has been providing its members with the skills and knowledge necessary to be confident and proficient in the outdoors for over 20 years. And we make it easier for people to deepen their connection to the natural world. Very often on a podcast S ends, the conversation continues.
[00:00:33] Travis Bader: That was the case here, and we decided to press record on a candid conversation where Sean asked me questions he was curious about for the complete conversation that led to this discussion. Make sure to download episode 107 where Sean shares the secrets that led to his success as an industry leader.
[00:00:50] Travis Bader: If you enjoy the Silver Corp podcast and you'd like to see more, the biggest thing that you can do to help us grow is to like, comment and share with others. It's a small effort, but it makes a massive difference to the growth of the show. Thank you. All right,
[00:01:07] Sean Zubar: brother. I got a question for you. Yeah. Okay.
[00:01:09] Sean Zubar: So why this, why this
[00:01:12] Travis Bader: You know, it's one of these things I, I looked at what was happening in my sphere and my business, and there, there was a hell of a lot of negativity that you see, whether it be on a social side from, uh, firearms or hunting and people against that. Uh, whether it be within the industry itself, you know, you're in the real estate industry.
[00:01:33] Travis Bader: I'm sure there's all different types of characters and there's those that will strive hard to build the biggest building and build a community around them to build it up. And there are also those that will try and torch everybody else's building so that there's looks the biggest. And I was encountering that numerous times.
[00:01:52] Travis Bader: And I thought, this is what I know. This is what I do. Do I want to just endeavor in a different direction or do I want to see if I can be the person to bring some positivity and change into an industry where I'm experiencing, uh, difficulty and negativity? So that, that was the advent of the Silver Corp podcast.
[00:02:13] Travis Bader: It was specifically designed to bring positivity into the industry and to highlight people's passion and share that passion with others.
[00:02:22] Sean Zubar: What do you feel that. Let me rephrase, business or people, people that are out there, like a very similar question to what you've asked me earlier is like, what are some of the changes you feel that we need, we need to be doing as a society to better, you know, gun advocacy and all the other kinds of things that you're involved in and we've been talking about.
[00:02:43] Travis Bader: It's similar to what you're talking about before, which is to have an open mind, to separate the individual from the idea, to realize that. A lot of us are all striving to get to the exact same place. We're just taking different paths to get there. And that place that we're trying to get to, if we can take a step back and look at that and say, is that worthwhile?
[00:03:05] Travis Bader: Is that a place where we want to be? And if so, are we able to be tolerant of these other paths? And in fact. Is there a way we can work together to get there? And that one piece of the puzzle that work together to get there is a one piece of the puzzle that I found to be lacking in so many areas, because the person who wants to work together the most will oftentimes find themselves being the one who does the majority of the work, who gets taken advantage of or forgotten, uh, if, if things start to get.
[00:03:33] Travis Bader: Tough or difficult. So I think it's a process of realizing that's human nature and then surrounding yourself with the right quality of person.
[00:03:44] Sean Zubar: And so right now, how we find ourselves, um, Let's just say in like the whole firearms community and what's happening, like, I know there is lawsuits between major organizations and all these other kinds of things.
[00:03:57] Sean Zubar: Are we cannibalizing ourselves? What are, what are some of the things that as a community, because you're in this community more than anybody I know, what are some of the things that we should be doing? To kind of, you know, help to be that one foot forward. Like how, how do we bring these people together when you have people with the exact same minds, one might just be a little bit more extreme than the other or whatever it is, right.
[00:04:22] Sean Zubar: For lack of a better word. But how, how do we bring these communicated? Cause I feel like if we're bickering and fighting, we're definitely not moving forward.
[00:04:29] Travis Bader: No, and you're not. And then you, and if I'm to extrapolate from lawsuits and community, you're probably talking about different advocacy groups that are out there.
[00:04:37] Travis Bader: And the power struggles that have happened. And really none of them are blameless. There is no one single white knight in all of this, and some of them have weaponized their, their followers in the hopes of getting more followers and to try and defeat others. I think that that is one area that has been so disheartening when you look at it is the amount of, of infighting.
[00:05:02] Travis Bader: And you'll find that at every level, at the high levels, at the low levels, whether it's your local club and they get in there and says, well, I don't care that about this law that's coming through. Cause I'm not a pistol shooter. I don't have restricted or prohibited, or I'm only black powder. And I think the biggest.
[00:05:20] Travis Bader: Uh, benefit that this community in general, whether it be the firearms community or the hunting community can look at is what is our guiding light? Do we have an overarching goal that we're looking to get towards? Like if people say, nope, for my cold, dead hands and they ain't getting just one. And okay, that's one stance.
[00:05:41] Travis Bader: That's one way you can go towards it. Yeah. But you also realize you're going to alienate a hell of a lot of people in the process. Um, but if you have that one guiding light and then the resources for people to be able to be essentially empower themselves, because most people. Have that ability already.
[00:06:02] Travis Bader: They just don't realize it. So waking people up to the fact that they have that ability and maybe just providing them resources where you can say, you don't need an organization to go and do these things for you. In fact, all of you individuals are so much more powerful on your own. That organization, lean on them and make them work.
[00:06:20] Travis Bader: Have them provide you as individuals with the, uh, the tools so that you can go out there and sing from the same song sheet and approach in a similar way. I think that would probably affect the greatest amount of, of, uh, change and compassion. Be compassionate because what you're looking at. Is something that can negatively, some people have been negatively affected by firearms and never in a million years, am I going to try and tell them that guns are a good thing or try and endeavor in some sort of rational argument on an emotional, uh, level.
[00:06:56] Travis Bader: It's, um, you're not doing them or yourself or anybody, any favors, be compassionate, realize that there are different ways that people look at these things. And maybe it's. Surrounding ourselves with the right community and then working together.
[00:07:10] Sean Zubar: That's actually, I was going to ask you that as well, cause I'm, I'm in the community, like I'm part of the wild sheep society and so on and so forth, but, and I go, I'm a member at the POCO gun range and mission gun range and so on and so forth.
[00:07:22] Sean Zubar: So I try to be around it as much as I can, but I'm the first one to say, like, I never go to general meetings or do any of these things. So, you know, I got, I got a.
[00:07:30] Travis Bader: Practice. Yeah. Why would you? They're boring, right? Yeah. There you go. And is,
[00:07:34] Sean Zubar: is there, is there a lack of community that might help these things?
[00:07:38] Sean Zubar: 'cause like you said, and I've, I've generally heard this and I've seen these on these BC hunting forums and all this other kind of stuff, like, oh, I don't give a rat's ass if they don't, if they take all pistols or black guns away, they're only just machismo guys trying to be cool anyways. And you know, I use my gun for hunting.
[00:07:55] Sean Zubar: They'll never take that away. And then, Sure enough, they take away, you know, 10, 000 jewel or whatever, you know what I mean? And it does start affecting them. Is that because we have separated ourselves within and created micro communities? I think in general, most of these, what's the best way to say firearms owners or whatever, I feel like a lot of us are very.
[00:08:16] Sean Zubar: Independent individuals. And, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm somebody that goes in the woods. I can take care of myself. I don't need everybody kind of thing. You know what I mean? Um, so does that play in the fact of why we haven't come together and been so cohesive in the movement? Like, what are some of the things that.
[00:08:32] Sean Zubar: You think we can do to bring this to, to bring everybody together, more or less, and kind of bring us on the same page and have that, that empathy and compassion for each other's sports and firearms in general, versus just like, this is mine and only
[00:08:46] Travis Bader: mine. I think it comes down to normalization. And I think you talk about these micro communities.
[00:08:54] Travis Bader: And they're there. There's always going to be, doesn't matter what activity people get into. You're going to have golfers and then you're going to have people that get right, right into it and the, all you, you know, doesn't matter what group or organization you're with. But. I think that the firearms community has been, and I'll put my air brackets up here for the people that are listening, under the gun for such a long period of time that a lot of them have decided, you know, if we're quiet, if we don't poke our head up, we just do our thing.
[00:09:24] Travis Bader: We're not going to sit here and try and convince other people, uh, it'll all go away. But there's, there's just a massive machine behind the, uh, Whether intentional or otherwise, the anti gun or anti hunting movements, some of it's very much intentional. Some of it, maybe not so much, you know, firearms are glorified in.
[00:09:47] Travis Bader: In media, uh, people think of a police officer and, you know, give me a couple objects that a cop is, they don't think of a pen and paper. They don't think of, uh, uh, all the things that a cop is. They think about that very small thing, which is a gun on the hip, right? Badge, gun, right? Firefighter is going to be hose and bucket, right?
[00:10:07] Travis Bader: Um, the gun has been glorified. And in ways through media, and it's been vilified in a way that, uh, I think it's become a part of the argument as opposed to like, people will say, well, I love my guns, right? I, you're not going to take one and I'm going to fight for every last gun. And then the other side might say, no, every gun should be gone.
[00:10:33] Travis Bader: But what are we actually talking about? Like, what's the end goal? Like if, if you ask any gun owner out there, they'd say, yeah, we don't want to see shootings. We don't want to see gangsters out there running around with them. We don't want to see kids taking them to school. I don't know any gun owner in the world that would say that.
[00:10:48] Travis Bader: And it's the same sentiment of what other, uh, people who'd want to get rid of guns. So. What is it we're actually looking to work towards? And if you can start identifying that and maybe just take the gun out of the equation for a second, just put it on the side, say, not a problem. We can talk about that and do our best to take the emotion out of it and say, well, you know, is there such a thing as a bad gun?
[00:11:09] Travis Bader: Right. And sure, we can talk about that, but. What effect is that going to have if we get rid of them? Like what effect of getting rid of drugs do? Um, well, people still got drugs. Prisons are the easiest place to get them, right? People are still having problems. Are we looking at harm reduction? Are we looking at something that'll actually move our society to the place where we're not seeing these, these negative things that are being spun out in the
[00:11:35] Sean Zubar: media?
[00:11:36] Sean Zubar: Do you feel like it's maybe a fact that, uh, the gun, and I don't know if it's necessarily our place to have to do this anyways, but the gun advocacy groups, firearm advocacy groups are not creating enough solutions for the problems that may be out there. And they're just sort of saying like, Hey, not over my dead body.
[00:11:58] Sean Zubar: Are you taking these guns away from me? And what I mean by as an example is, um, and just like you mentioned earlier. If somebody is shot, let's say you lose a son or a family member or something from a firearm. Right. There's a lot of emotion attached to that, obviously, right. It's hardship and everything attached to that.
[00:12:17] Sean Zubar: And is it, did the firearm, like any reasonable person is going to know this, the firearm jump off the table and shoot somebody. No, there was somebody behind that, that did that action and so on and so forth. Right. Um, but. It is very easy for somebody to say, well, if there were no guns, or if you don't have a gun, then that wouldn't, nobody would be able to grab that.
[00:12:37] Sean Zubar: They don't necessarily think, well, just like England, you can go get a knife and stab somebody, or you can drive a truck or, you know, if somebody wants to kill you, unfortunately,
[00:12:44] Travis Bader: that's. And England's still got guns and they're an Island. And if you can't keep them off this Island, how do you expect to keep it out of, let's say Canada, which is right next door to the largest arms manufacturer in the world.
[00:12:55] Sean Zubar: Exactly. Right. So. Is it maybe that we are not coming up with enough solutions as, um, as a movement in, in whole, like, are we coming, like, are, are we going out there and just saying, Hey, listen, guns don't kill people, kill people, kill people. Okay, it's the truth, right? But by saying that you are also not giving any, well, this is what we should do and how it would be an effective harm reduction policy.
[00:13:24] Sean Zubar: Does that make
[00:13:25] Travis Bader: sense? Kind of like that old book, uh, getting to yes, negotiating agreement without giving in. Yeah, exactly. Here's my line in the sand and I'm not going to go past it as opposed to saying, well, okay, I've got this line here, but I'm willing to move that line for you. If we get this and.
[00:13:40] Travis Bader: Basically come into some sort of an accord or an understanding.
[00:13:43] Sean Zubar: Or, or even, uh, I'll give you an example, right? I think one of the things that I don't see any of our advocacy groups, like whoever they may be mentioning, you know, in, in. In the United States, for example, all of these mass shootings that you've had, I saw the entire list of it, and I'm sure you guys can all Google it and see it yourself, but almost every single one, no, not almost every single one of these kids that did these mass shootings were all on some kind of antidepressants, all on some kind of drugs, all on some kind of mind altering.
[00:14:15] Sean Zubar: Not one of them wasn't. Um, and so do, do we, as advocacy groups talk enough about the preliminary causes and okay, no problem. We can do background checks. We can do it. And the funny thing is, is, you know, you give an inch and then they ask for not even a mile in this case, many times, 10, 20, 30 miles, but. Um, I think most Canadian firearm owners that I've met are okay with background checks, are okay with some reasonable prejudice, just like you got to get a driver's license for a car, right?
[00:14:49] Sean Zubar: I think most of us are okay with certain things, right? Where it draws the line is, is that We are getting everything taken away without any reasonable reason for it, right? No mass murders with AR 15s, no nothing. And then all of a sudden, all these responsible owners that are the most vetted Canadians, right?
[00:15:08] Sean Zubar: Are getting all of their firearms and personal property taken away from us. And so obviously we're rightfully angry, right? Are we doing enough to. You know, tell the world as an advocacy, as a group, as an organization on the actual causality of what is causing these people, people to do these horrific things, you know, the gun is the tool.
[00:15:29] Sean Zubar: Obviously, and that's what they keep bringing up. But do you feel as a society, we're doing enough to, you know, educate the world on what is actually happening? I just don't see a lot of that
[00:15:38] Travis Bader: out there. You know, the word reasonable is always going to be a difficult one, right? Surely you're open to some reasonable restrictions.
[00:15:47] Travis Bader: You're open to some reasonable measures. Oh yeah, I'm open to reasonable measures. Right. Well, where does that reason start to begin with, if, if it is in fact that all of these shooters in the States, mass shooters were on some sort of mind altering drug, wouldn't it be reasonable to start there as opposed to looking at, they also all wore blue shoes, right, or whatever it might be.
[00:16:10] Travis Bader: Yeah. Um, the firearms got the ability to do some serious damage in a short period of time. And there's no. Doubt about that. I don't think that everybody should have a God given right to have access to any type of level of whatever it might be. Nuclear, right? Like you, what is that fake Latin saying absolutum infinitum, right?
[00:16:32] Travis Bader: You just, you take the argument to the absolute infinite. Uh, does it make sense over there still? If so, then maybe you've got a good argument. If it doesn't like, why are we, where are we drawing these arbitrary lines? I think that the. Um, uh, there's a lot of very well meaning people out there. Most of these people want the exact same thing.
[00:16:54] Travis Bader: They don't want to see people get hurt. People want to feel safe. They don't want to be feeling threatened in their communities. And some people look at it as a firearm, as a way to feel safe. And other people look at getting rid of the firearm as a way to feel safe. But it also will be a very easy tool because it's got such an emotional attachment associated with it to pull those emotional strings.
[00:17:20] Travis Bader: If you want to just manipulate or control, or if I want to get votes in a certain area, I'll say, well, look at my opponent wants to make it easier for you to get guns. Right. And vice versa. You want to get votes in another area to say, my opponent wants to take away your, your right to be able to protect yourself.
[00:17:38] Travis Bader: Yeah. Well, neither of those are really true, right? The, the end result of that, but it sure gets people fired up. The minutiae of it can get boring for people. What you mean we have to actually talk to our children and raise them in a certain way. And there's some things that we can do as a society and as family to be able to look out for these pre fight indicators or pre threat indicators and.
[00:18:02] Travis Bader: We have to start providing people, um, necessities. Like a lot of times these things are happening. People are drawn to a life of crime, typically not because they come from the most affluent backgrounds and have all, all the niceties in life would offer. They might be drawn there because they are at risk to begin with.
[00:18:23] Travis Bader: Should we be looking at, at, at those areas? It gets a little tougher and the conversation isn't quite as easy to have. So I think that's where. The, the major disparity happens between the two sides. One, because it's such a polarizing topic. It's two, because it's very emotional three, because it's intentionally used by both sides to be able to take them apart.
[00:18:47] Travis Bader: But are we doing enough to be able to educate people on other reasons? I think people have to be open to hearing that first.
[00:18:56] Sean Zubar: How do we know though, if we're not saying it or are we saying it? I'm just missing it.
[00:18:59] Travis Bader: I mean, the information is there. Yeah. If a person is a gun owner can find it, a person is a non gun owner can find it too.
[00:19:05] Travis Bader: But what did Israeli say? And I don't even think it was Israeli. There's liars, damn liars and statisticians. Right. Um, you know, people can make stats sing to whatever, whatever way they wish it. To go, but there are some underlying trues to things, right? There are some things that they can be able to extrapolate in a similar way to what you're talking about before of how you operate your business and you're doing your constant oodle loop.
[00:19:30] Sean Zubar: So how do we, how do we go ahead and, you know, tell the general public this, because I think where, and just, just by being an outsider, that's in the. More along the firearms community as a participant, not as a, you know, working in it or whatever, have you, um, I, I don't see, uh, unless for myself, like I've, I've been able to bring a few people into the community because I, I show myself shooting on Instagram or, you know, I'm, I'm like showing how much I enjoy doing these activities.
[00:20:03] Sean Zubar: Right. Um, but do we, as a community, you know, Are we proactively putting it in commercials? Are we proactively out there trying to get this message across? And I know it could be a double edged sword because then all of a sudden, you know, they're going to loop us into what's in the States and you have the whole NRA and whatever, you know, the, the, the gun, most powerful committees, whatever you want to call it.
[00:20:27] Sean Zubar: The point is, is are we doing enough to educate or do you feel like that might. Us going out there as a CCFR, for example, going out there and putting these things out there, that's going to all of a sudden backfire and say, Hey, these gun lobbies are just trying to brainwash
[00:20:42] Travis Bader: you or whatever. Well, anything could backfire or be used in the, in the, uh, as a propaganda tool to be used against a person.
[00:20:49] Travis Bader: I don't know if, uh, telling people. Is necessarily the approach to take. I really don't have an answer to it, but I do know what I'm doing. And it's similar to what you just said. You know, that's showing I'll show people, I mean, through my social media, through how I dress, how I comport myself to, I'm not running around decked out, head to toe and in Vietnam era, camouflaged with bandoliers of bullets and I loves me guns.
[00:21:20] Travis Bader: Right. You know, I'm doing my best just to be a normal individual who contributes to the community and works really hard to bring everybody else up around them into a better place and to, uh, assist those who are worth assisting and open to assistance to, to, to be a better. Better person for, for themselves without making the gun or whatever the cause be, the focus of the attention, it just so happens to be an ancillary by product of it.
[00:21:47] Travis Bader: And, you know, Shane Mahoney is a, um, renowned conservationist out of, uh, out of Newfoundland, a very good orator, well spoken. And he says, you know. One thing for the hunting movement is to find something that has the public's attention, rather than saying hunting's good. And this is why, and here's all the stats on the animals and people like they tune out.
[00:22:10] Travis Bader: They like, I just saw a picture of a, of a wolf and it looks like my dog and it was shot and I feel bad. Right. It says, well, why don't we look at a movement that's gaining popularity and has been for some time. And that's just, you're eating local and the hundred mile diet and all the rest. And we'll just.
[00:22:27] Travis Bader: Emphasize that hunting also happens to be a part of that, but, but we're not trying to force it down somebody's throat. I don't think that, uh, we exclude those who want to forcibly try and stand up and say, this is a way, like, I don't think there's just one way, but I think for the general population, the masses, if, if they just realize that, you know, our doctors, our lawyers, our judges, our, our, uh, police officers, our professionals in our community, teachers out there.
[00:22:59] Travis Bader: They hunt, they have firearms and they're productive members. And I think that sort of a, uh, approach would perhaps paint a different picture than what people typically see, which is six o'clock news. And here's, here's the gangbanger out there. Right.
[00:23:19] Sean Zubar: So it's more, uh, of a normalization of showing that like, this is something that everybody does.
[00:23:24] Sean Zubar: It's funny that you mentioned that because I don't want to tell you the exact, cause I'd be lying, the exact stats on it, but Ohio and Idaho and all these things in Utah, the amount of, uh, tags that have gone, gone, uh, or been applied for because of Joe Rogan and because of Cameron Haynes and because of all these guys saying like, that's all I eat is elk now.
[00:23:46] Sean Zubar: Right. You know, like, and it's going, and it's been this, instead of hunting. It's lifestyle. It's like, I only eat organic. I train every day. I do cold showers or cold baths. I do this and I eat elk. Yeah.
[00:23:59] Travis Bader: Right. And they're contributing members of the society who are doing something that's productive and they're an aspirational figure that other people say, you know what, if they can do it, I can do it too.
[00:24:09] Sean Zubar: So maybe is that one of the next steps then? Is that something you're saying that these people that. Our normal contributing members of society should be just a little bit more outspoken. Is that something that we could
[00:24:19] Travis Bader: ask for or hope for? Uh, perhaps I think the biggest thing is just don't get baited into the argument that you didn't want to have to begin with, because there's, there's a losing proposition on, on some of these arguments and guns are bad, guns are good.
[00:24:31] Travis Bader: Well, guns are neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so right. Yeah. To, to misquote Shakespeare. That's true. Uh, yeah, I, I, I think the argument has just been wrong for a very long time, both intentionally and unintentionally. I think that people should, uh, they don't have to force their opinions and beliefs down people, but they also have to realize that those who are trying to force their opinions and beliefs, there should be a check and balance in that process and not get baited into being the opposition of a certain thing, but you're opposing.
[00:25:08] Travis Bader: Someone's ability to force their will or opinion on you without the ability to have a reasonable, uh, retort
[00:25:16] Sean Zubar: back. Right. Well, that kind of leads to a question I have for you. Okay. So. I've been looking at getting, um, a trapline. I was looking at, I'm getting my pilot's license and hopefully my float designation.
[00:25:32] Sean Zubar: How do I get
[00:25:32] Travis Bader: an ATC? That's an excellent question. I'm glad you asked that one. And, uh, yeah, float plane. Awesome. My, my son is working towards his pilot license at the moment now, and we're, we're, I know he's going to want floats as well. He's sick. Where, where is he doing it? Um, Charlie Zulu, bravo, bravo here at Burnaby.
[00:25:50] Travis Bader: Yeah, or Boundary Bay, sorry. Very cool. Um, but yeah, he's, uh, done his ground school a couple of times. He's only 14 right now, but. Oh, wow. That's very cool. Yes. He's done ground school a few times. He's just working up his hours now, done his tests, got everything under his belt and he's just got to finish up his hours and get himself through, but.
[00:26:08] Travis Bader: It's, it's such
[00:26:09] Sean Zubar: an amazing experience. There's, um, I've been boating my whole life. I have my motorcycle license, all that kind of jazz, but flying. A, I way underestimated how much work it is. It's a lot of work. Holy cow. And like what you have to memorize and, and it makes sense, but I just thought, I'm just trying to like fly a Cessna with floats.
[00:26:28] Sean Zubar: Right. And what, what work do I have to do?
[00:26:30] Travis Bader: And they're dead easy to fly, right? Really when you're up there, but it's a hell of a lot of work. Well, and
[00:26:35] Sean Zubar: the thing is what you have to learn is basically 75 or 80% of what the pilot does, because if you don't know how to do that stuff, you're going to. Drop the plate out of the sky, all this stuff kind of goes in there.
[00:26:43] Sean Zubar: So I way underestimated the amount of work it would take, but, um, yeah, what I'm looking to do is obviously go hunting, looking at guiding, trap line, something is, you know, down the line, not to say retirement gig, but other gig. Yeah. Um, yeah. What do I do to get an ATC, man?
[00:27:00] Travis Bader: So ATC, authorization to carry, few different ways you can get one in Canada.
[00:27:04] Travis Bader: One, you can be, uh, your principal activity is a transport of cash or negotiables. So armored car guards, they get ATCs. They don't have a Queen's commission like the police have. Police don't have firearms licenses unless they go out personally and get one, a little bit different rules there. Just like the, our army doesn't need firearms licenses to go out.
[00:27:27] Travis Bader: And is
[00:27:27] Sean Zubar: it, sorry to interrupt, is it true that, cause I've heard this, I think, like RCMP can't carry outside of duty? Yes and no. Oh, okay. Depending, I guess, on what their
[00:27:38] Travis Bader: role is or something, I guess. Technically they're not supposed to be carrying outside of duty. If they get authorization from a supervisor, they can now carry outside of duty.
[00:27:47] Travis Bader: Um, yeah, so, uh, there, there's a yes and no, and there's a bit of a gray area. I think there is a, uh, When the, the laws keep coming in and changing, there's always going to be levels to try and placate those who are going to be enforcing the laws as well, too. Right.
[00:28:03] Sean Zubar: It was just weird to me that a police officer that that's their job, they walk around with a firearm, can't conceal carry or something like that.
[00:28:10] Sean Zubar: It's just. One doesn't make sense for the other. That's all, but I, I guess it is
[00:28:14] Travis Bader: what it is. It's laws. It's Canada. There's a lot that might not make sense, but yeah, so your principal activity is to transport a cash or negotiables, armor car guard. You got to go through some training. You got to realize that there's going to be less violent means available and how you can take them.
[00:28:29] Travis Bader: They don't really have intermediary taser.
[00:28:36] Travis Bader: They go from empty hand defense to lethal force. Right. So they've, uh, they don't really have the same force continuum that, uh, a police officer would have, mind you, their role is to leave, to run away. Yeah. So about a week long course, week to two weeks, depending on who you're doing the training with and the level of training that they're getting.
[00:28:58] Travis Bader: Uh, If your life is in danger, right? If there's a legitimate threat on your life, and the key word I think is police protection isn't adequate. Okay. You can get yourself an ATC for that. We've worked with some and the final hurdle for some individuals who had legitimate. Threats on their life who were requiring the ability to carry a firearm was, we need you to get something from your local chief of police, piece of paper saying that their protection is not adequate.
[00:29:32] Travis Bader: Well, good luck finding that, right? Yes.
[00:29:36] Sean Zubar: Could you give me an example of like who would qualify for that? Like not, obviously don't give me exactly who they were, but like what kind of position would that be in? Is that like. Cause obviously it's not going to be like, Hey, you're a gangster. So you can qualify
[00:29:48] Travis Bader: yourself, right?
[00:29:49] Travis Bader: The law is not, it doesn't qualify the individual. They just say that there's going to be some imminent risk to, uh, death or grievous bodily harm and police protection is inadequate. So that could, could be the gangster, right? Technically, uh, under the law, typically it's something that's going to be given to, let's say a judge during a, uh, Period of time when they're working on a trial and there's been threats on their life.
[00:30:15] Travis Bader: And the police aren't, you know, maybe they have a protective detail on them, but, uh, they can't be everywhere all the time for them. So that, that's generally been from my understanding where the few and far between on the protection of life, uh, outside of your cash negotiables has been, uh, issued. But then there's someone that you're talking about and people call it a WATC or wilderness ATC.
[00:30:40] Travis Bader: Yep. So they keep changing rules on that. And every time they change a rules, we here at Silvercore have always been the forefront of certifying new individuals who qualify to meet whatever the new rules are, I think it was around 96, put person through and 2000, they change the rules, put them through.
[00:30:59] Travis Bader: And, and there's essentially, it comes down to you're working in a remote wilderness area and you require. A restricted firearm or a pistol to protect yourself, yourself, your life from predatory animals. What's a remote wilderness area. I don't know. Right. Uh, that's somebody living in the city, maybe going out to a little bit into the bushes, remote wilderness.
[00:31:24] Travis Bader: If somebody lives well outside of the city, maybe they feel that's pretty populated. So that that's pretty open to interpretation. Mind you, when we've had people come through for the ATCs, we leave that wide open, any area within BC, which is considered remote wilderness. Uh, working is one, uh, that the, is, is sort of a key word and they, uh, the issuing body being the Canadian Firearms Program looks at working as actively employed or self employed.
[00:31:53] Travis Bader: It doesn't look at it as, Hey, I'm working on the roof of my cabin, right? They have to see some sort of employment. So, uh, if you've got a trap line, that would be okay, that's what I'm doing for work. They might ask you for municipal. Authorizations saying, Hey, you've got a business license. And I know when I had to apply for one, I had to get a letter from the city of Delta saying, we have no authority over remote wilderness areas throughout BC.
[00:32:20] Travis Bader: But, but that was one of the checks and balances they had to go through. And, uh, it has to be, you know, if it's funny, because there is a desire to not issue these wilderness ATCs. And I talked to my American friends and they're like, this is absolutely ridiculous. How can you not? Uh, like Brad Brooks out of Idaho, he is out in Alaska and he's hunting and he's, um, uh, he's got his pistol in his hip because he is got his, he's doing some archery.
[00:32:46] Travis Bader: He's like, how can you guys go out there and not have something? Right.
[00:32:50] Sean Zubar: Well, it's crazy that you mentioned that actually. Speaking of Alaska. Yeah. So I did the research. I can literally drive to the Alaska border. Yep. And with my hunting license that I purchased from Alaska, which is free. Which is free. I can, or no, it's, sorry, $10.
[00:33:04] Sean Zubar: Yeah. Sub-board, more or less free. Right. Yeah. I can just say that I'm hunting small bird, which will allow me to bring over my firearm and I can conceal carry or open carry in Alaska. Wait, there's another permit that I have to apply for, but that is the preliminary effect for that permit. So I can literally conceal carry.
[00:33:24] Sean Zubar: In Alaska and not
[00:33:25] Travis Bader: in British Columbia. Well, that was see the, the, in the States, they have different rules. They call it a CCW. So concealed carry weapon. And I remember Utah, they had a, when they had reciprocity and a whole bunch of other states, including Alaska, And Washington and the, they had this guy coming around and he was just raking in the money, right.
[00:33:44] Travis Bader: He was going to all the local clubs here in Canada and I'll put you through, you're going to get your Utah license. And I was one of them. I went through and I got my Utah CCW. And when I went in the States, you were able to bring it across. I had my Alaska license and I went into Washington. Okay. I mean, fair enough.
[00:33:59] Travis Bader: You got your Alaska. So you met all the protocol. And, um, I went down there for a training courses I was doing in the States, but, uh, there's a lot of little workarounds. I don't know if I would want to be on the arguing end of a workaround like this, if push came to shove. Um, but for Canada, you're, you're willing to say TC, they're going to require you a.
[00:34:22] Travis Bader: That you do some sort of proof of proficiency. Okay.
[00:34:25] Sean Zubar: Um. And that you can take the course through yourself, right? There's a course that
[00:34:28] Travis Bader: you do get. You can do that through yourself. I found it kind of funny because they say, well, proof of proficiency, the people who can sign off on you, if they're a range officer or a firearm safety course instructor, neither of those people necessarily have any background in, in being able to.
[00:34:45] Travis Bader: Provide proof of proficiency or qual courses. Right. For individuals, maybe they're a range officer and they're good at turning the light on and off and calling the range safe or not, or dealing with deactivated firearms or disabled firearms on a safety course. But that's where the process is. So you have to show that you can shoot it.
[00:35:01] Travis Bader: You're supposed to be using the same. Ammunition that you'd be using on an animal. So you can't use lighter loads. Gotcha. Uh, question on that is what police officers do you know that qualify on ammunition that's going to be the same as what they're using and carrying? And the answer is, well, probably close to none because most of them are using cheaper FMJs or frangibles on their, uh, their ranges and not hollow points, but, um, you meet that criteria, prove that you're working and you can do that with your trap line.
[00:35:32] Travis Bader: And then there's going to be caliber restrictions. They say that you want to have something that's going to be, have enough power.
[00:35:39] Sean Zubar: So just random questions, the Glock 20, the 10 millimeter sufficient. Cause I know a lot of guys up North are
[00:35:44] Travis Bader: using those. Yeah. And I got one for a 40 Cal. I think I was the first one to be issued one for 40 Cal and I would argue nine millimeter as well, because previously they were saying, you know, uh, it has to be a revolver, it's gotta be minimum.
[00:35:59] Travis Bader: Uh, I think it was minimum 357 Magnum. I said, well, how does an animal go down? It's not always going to be bears that you're protecting yourself from, right? There's other predatory animals out there that. Uh, or other dangers that you'd be having a problem with and, you know, a nice, powerful round does nothing if you miss it, right?
[00:36:18] Travis Bader: If you have 10 rounds in your magazine, you have more chances to hit it. You have more chances. You're either going to be disabling an animal through an interruption of the central nervous system, the spine or brain, or through inducing massive hypovolemic shock through cardiopulmonary decompression. And the.
[00:36:35] Travis Bader: Fastest way to do that is more holes. Yeah. So anyways, was successful on all of those fronts. I have seen people denied the ability if they're out in their trap line, or if they're out working at remote wilderness area. And they say, well, right now I'm carrying my shotgun with me everywhere. And they say, oh, well, you don't need a handgun then.
[00:36:54] Sean Zubar: And that's what I was going to ask you, because I've, I've heard of actually, no, two guides that, um, guide out of Muncho Lake up there and they applied for it and they were denied because they were told. That, well, you can carry a, uh, a shotgun, you can carry, um, a rifle or whatever it is. Right. But they, you know, they're not excuse, but why they wanted one is the fact that they're packing all the time.
[00:37:20] Sean Zubar: They're doing this, how are they going to be able to access that shotgun? If the thing's attacking them while they're packing meat on the back of their horses. Um, so I don't know if they've successfully been able to. Reapply or whatever the case has been a while since I talked to them. But so there is no specific, like, these are the jobs that you can do.
[00:37:37] Sean Zubar: These are the, it's just if it's a, and that specific job, cause like, that's one of the things I've heard as well. There's quite a few helicopter pilots that have it out there because at the end of the day, they're in forestry or whatever. They're communicating quite and they crash quite often, unfortunately, not.
[00:37:57] Sean Zubar: It happens. Yeah. Not, not, uh, Lethal in most cases, but it happens. And, um, so that's, that's the only way that they have no room to put a shotgun or whatever it may be in there. So they're carrying, so there is no specific. No. Job
[00:38:10] Travis Bader: requirement or anything. Remote willingness area. What is that? That's up to you to define, um, working.
[00:38:17] Travis Bader: What is that? Well, that's going to be a conversation. They're going to want to have a talk with you, which is a good opportunity for them to say, well, now you've been disqualified based off of our talk. Yeah. And I remember when I went through, um, every time they change the rules and they make it different, they say, well, come on in, let's have a little conversation about it.
[00:38:37] Travis Bader: I'm like, why don't you send it to me in an email? I'm more than happy to, because I want to document the process, right. Because I want to be able to assist others. So that they can go in the same route, not to cheat the system, not to scam it, not to find a workaround, but to know exactly what it is that's required and what isn't.
[00:38:55] Travis Bader: I would think from a government agency standpoint, they'd want that level of systemization. And so it finally reached a point where they refused to do the, uh, to provide the questions by email. Cause they said it could be dynamic. It could be changing. I said, okay. Not a problem. I got you on phone now.
[00:39:12] Travis Bader: Yeah. Let's do this. You can ask me all the questions you want. They said, okay, question number one. I write it down. I said, that's a really good question. I'll get back to you by email. What's the next question? I went through the entire list and I on guys, quit playing this game. Um, so anyways, got all the questions.
[00:39:30] Travis Bader: They now have a written form as well that you'll answer and you'll put out, uh, uh, your, your questions do know that there are some firearms officers out there that will try to disqualify you based on your questions. So the more succinct you can be when you answer them to the point, truthful, obviously.
[00:39:49] Travis Bader: The, the less you're providing for them to try and pick holes in.
[00:39:53] Sean Zubar: And so now with this new, uh, can't transfer cell by handguns, how has this thrown a wrench into the whole thing? Like, like, uh, fortunately I do have a 357. Fortunately I do have. You know, 10 millimeter Glock. Fortunately, I have all those things.
[00:40:10] Sean Zubar: However, um, if I didn't, and I needed an ATC, how would I go about doing that? Or is that just null and void now?
[00:40:18] Travis Bader: Well, they've, they keep making provisions, right? Um, is it null and void? No, there's always a way like for someone to, to deny you the ability to protect your life. And I think that's one of the things that should.
[00:40:32] Travis Bader: An approach that an individual should take. I definitely, I would take is to put that onus on the issuing party. Rather than them putting the onus on you and say, well, you didn't meet the requirements, put the onus on them to be able to say, how are those requirements sound? And now you're, if I get mauled and killed out there, based on you and my inability to have anything else out there, you're going to wear this, right?
[00:40:55] Travis Bader: Very few people want to wear that one. They'll try and find a way to pass it back. Um, and There are provisions for people who are working for them to be able to get handguns that are written in, but we've also got an election apparently coming up that's, uh, that's being rumored. So we'll see what happens there.
[00:41:13] Travis Bader: Yeah. Hopefully that changes a lot. And you know, I guess the other side would be too for businesses, there's nothing stopping an individual from starting a business. Right. If you want to have all of the, there's, there's always a way for people to be able to do things. If somebody says, Oh man, I really want to shoot full auto and I want to have silences and I want to have, and they go through the whole list of things that they want to do a little bit of hard work.
[00:41:37] Travis Bader: You can set up a businesses. There are businesses out there that do all of those things. And now you're able to do it. Provided you're not just doing it for your own. Yeah. Right. And you, you can actually justifiably say this is a business thing that I'm doing, go nuts. I mean, the requirements for a business are in some cases, less stringent than for an individual, like for an individual, if you have to, uh, lock up your firearms, right.
[00:42:02] Travis Bader: Your restricted firearms and trigger lock and a locked box, right. Separate from your ammunition or in a safe. And for a business, this has got to be, your firearms have to be separate. In an area not readily accessible to the general public. Every window and every door has to have the ability to be locked.
[00:42:16] Travis Bader: Doesn't even say it has to be locked . Right. And, um, there has to be an electronic alarm. And like, what is that? Is that one of those little motion sensor frogs that ribbits when you go by? Is it a monitored alarm? Is it a siren? I mean, they, they don't stipulate. Yeah. So it, it, it gets a little, a little silly.
[00:42:33] Travis Bader: There's a lot of generalizations in there. There is, yeah. Yeah,
[00:42:37] Sean Zubar: man. Okay. So I'm going to definitely try to apply for my ATC. I've got to figure out, I wonder if I could, uh, open Stonehouse in a remote location, but how would I, how would I defend
[00:42:47] Travis Bader: myself? Would you be ever working as a real estate agent in remote wilderness locations?
[00:42:51] Travis Bader: I actually do right now. There you go. That's working.
[00:42:57] Sean Zubar: Do you think that
[00:42:57] Travis Bader: would be approvable though? It all comes down to the individual. Yeah. I mean, from the letter of the law, absolutely. And it comes down to the individual, the circumstances, the firearms officer that you're dealing with. Cause keep in mind, you have to make it easy for them to say yes.
[00:43:12] Travis Bader: Yeah. Or hard for them to say, no, if you want to paint a person to the corner and they got nowhere else to go. I mean, you're, you're, you're not doing yourself any favors, but if you paint them into a corner and give them a door out, most civil servants don't want to take that level of responsibility. And if they can find a way to pass it on to somebody else and still do their job and do what they have to do, not a problem.
[00:43:32] Sean Zubar: Fair enough. So let me ask you this. So with your ATC, could it, it's not defined by a specific area. I guess it would only be defined if it's, um, like wilderness, I guess, but, um, it's not defined because what I've been told is that you can, if you have a trap line. And you're applying it for your trapline.
[00:43:53] Sean Zubar: You can only wear it on your trapline. And I even read somewhere that it has to be locked up while you're on like the quad or something like that. And that once you get off the quad, then you can put it, and there's only a certain type of holsters that you can wear. You can't wear like I. From what I've been told and read, and obviously probably wrong, but that there's a whole bunch of stipulations, uh, attached to it.
[00:44:16] Sean Zubar: But I guess maybe that's just how the application
[00:44:17] Travis Bader: was or. I mean, if you want to put stipulations on, you can, and if they ask you to put stipulations on and you do, they will gladly comply with that. Yeah. But it's similar to your authorization to transport. ATT. Then it was brought in as part of your license, but they would ask you a whole bunch of questions on there.
[00:44:37] Travis Bader: What range do you belong to? What time do you think you're going to be transporting it? Um, what days would you be transporting it on? And people would fill it out and like, well, geez, I'm, I wouldn't go there on a weekday, maybe in the evenings in the weekday. Right. But not through the day and Saturdays and Sundays.
[00:44:53] Travis Bader: And, um, And on the form it says, um, I think at the time it was a one, two or three year license. What, what do you want it for? For how long? Like, why would I put, oh, I just want it for a year. I just need it for a week. And so, uh, background 94, 95 put out a form and it said to all approved gun clubs and ranges, uh, from 2, 400 to 2, 400 every day of the week.
[00:45:17] Travis Bader: I want it for the maximum three years. Like the, I get the intention behind some of these laws and rules. They don't want to see gangbangers running around with handguns and without proper permission, and it gives them another tool. So they can say, are you right? Or are you wrong? But. As a licensed firearms owner, who's gone through proper training and criminal record checked and background checked and reference checked.
[00:45:41] Travis Bader: And now that reference checks and all those checks go for a person's lifetime. What's the difference between them carrying a rifle, which is far more dangerous pistol or a shotgun. So, you know, sometimes the logic kind of goes out the window and I think the firearms program looked at that. They'll make forms sometimes the only, the only.
[00:46:02] Travis Bader: Um, teeth that some of these laws really have, or some of these rules that are in place fall in place on the form, because there's an order prescribing forms and licenses, and they'll say it's asked on the form. And so you have to fill it out, but there's nowhere in the law that says you have to put these things out.
[00:46:21] Travis Bader: So it's, it's a very. It's a very interesting sort of thing. And it's, um, uh, I mean, we, we advocate for people's ability to be able to use things lawfully and safely, uh, not to be cutting corners and skirting, skirting the, uh, the rules here, but in the same breath, that there are rules that you're supposed to be playing by.
[00:46:40] Travis Bader: It's important people know what they are. Yeah.
[00:46:43] Sean Zubar: So, um, so just to clarify then, so let's say I get an ATC. Yep. You're on your trapline. And I'm on my trapline and I haven't specifically said that this is going to be for my trapline. This is going to be for, uh, trapping, but not specifically for that area only.
[00:46:59] Sean Zubar: Let's just put it that way. Um, now does it have to be used in a On the job per se, like only, or can I, can I go hunting later on that day with a bow and carry my
[00:47:14] Travis Bader: handgun with me? I think if you look at these things, there's two places that I'd put myself in two positions. Number one. Um, CYA, can you articulate, right?
[00:47:25] Travis Bader: Can you articulate to a conservation officer or police officer or whomever it might be that you are complying with the conditions of which your license was, uh, provided. Right. And number two, is this a position that you'd want to defend in court? Right. Right. So. Uh, if the answer is yes to both of those and then so be it.
[00:47:46] Travis Bader: Right. But, uh, if you're a little hazy on some of them, then I'd say I probably wouldn't because the ends don't justify the means. And is that really worth it for you? Uh, For some of the people who are getting their licenses, they're going to be working, who knows, anywhere out in remote wilderness areas in BC, uh, or whatever province they're in.
[00:48:09] Travis Bader: And, uh, maybe they're, maybe they're a free miner. They don't have a set trap line, or maybe they're, they're looking for new trap lines. They're going to be setting up and they need to explore these areas just because you have a trap line and that's your one. Doesn't mean it's going to preclude you from looking at other areas and staking places out.
[00:48:26] Travis Bader: So, uh, I would say.
[00:48:32] Sean Zubar: But the letter of the law basically says that it should be during the job, I guess, or, uh. It says working. Okay. So it's not just that I have to have that. And once I have a job and I use it for my job, I can use it for everything
[00:48:44] Travis Bader: else too. I mean, if your job's as a guide, you might have a, uh, have an argument there, right?
[00:48:48] Travis Bader: Right. Um, if your job is, uh, scouting as a guide, maybe you have an argument there, right? It's just, uh, It's one of these things where people tend to do things cause that's how it's always been done. And it's okay to ask questions and to push back and sometimes it just costs you your time. Sometimes it costs your money, but whatever you do, I would highly encourage anybody if they have it and they feel that they're in the right, make sure they've got a way to be able to.
[00:49:17] Travis Bader: Articulate afterwards. And what I like to do is I'll get things in writing and oftentimes they don't want to offer things in writing. So maybe I'll just do the reverse of that and I'll send them something in writing and say, here's what I'm planning on doing and reverse that onus. If this is not within the prescribed rules.
[00:49:34] Travis Bader: Please let me know, right. Otherwise I will proceed like ABC and here's a timeframe you can get ahold of me and all the rest and give it a reasonable time. Yeah. Awesome. But I'm not a lawyer. I can't give legal advice, but I can talk about some of the areas that we do operate in.
[00:49:50] Sean Zubar: Cool.