Lady Justice and Scales
episode 43 | Mar 16, 2021
Education

Ep. 43: Lawyer Ian Runkle on Firearms Laws

Travis speaks with Ian Runkle, Canadian Criminal Defence Lawyer with a keen interest in firearms law. They discuss what might be considered dangerous questions when speaking with the police and how sometimes it’s better to say nothing. They touch on Bill C-21, the air soft ban and the negative impact it will have, storage of non-restricted firearms when out hunting or for predator control and legalities around that.
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Transcript

Travis Bader: [00:00:00] I’m Travis Bader and this is The Silvercore Podcast. Join me as I discuss matters related to hunting, fishing, and outdoor pursuits with the people in businesses that comprise the community. If you’re a new to Silvercore, be sure to check out our website, www.Silvercore.ca where you can learn more about courses, services, and products that we offer. As well as how you can join The Silvercore Club, which includes 10 million in North America wide liability insurance, to ensure you are properly covered during your outdoor adventures.

[00:00:40] We have observed that The Silvercore Club has a high number of first responders and its ranks, which totally makes sense given the quality of person that our club attracts. I am so excited to pre-announce a full tuition paid scholarship for one lucky person, wishing to be trained as a firefighter through the Training Division. This is a massive leg up for anyone with aspirations of being a firefighter. Follow us on social media. And watch your website for details on how you could win. 

[00:01:13] Alright, listeners, welcome back to The Silvercore Podcast. If you’re enjoying what you hear, please like, comment and subscribe and make sure to share this with others. Today, I’m joined by Ian Runkle, a renowned Canadian criminal defense lawyer who specializes in firearms law. Welcome Ian. 

Ian Runkle: [00:01:32] Thank you. And I should comment that specialized is probably the wrong term here, because a specialized is a term that is restricted by the Law Society, and they is only for people who have sort of been qualified as such and they don’t so far as I know, actually have a qualification program. So it’s not a term I’m sort of allowed to use, but I do have an interest in firearm law. It’s been a, an area of fascination for me, pretty much since actually law school, is sort of where I fell in love with firearm law. And the reason for that is that, uh, um, so law school is stressful and, it’s kind of famously stressful. 

Travis Bader: [00:02:17] Yeah.

Ian Runkle: [00:02:18] And I sort of, I got to a point where I needed a hobby and the sort of main contenders for hobbies when you’re in law school are kind of alcohol-related. And I went, I need a hobby that doesn’t just involve drinking because that doesn’t seem like a great life strategy long-term you know, so I need something sort of a little healthier and.

[00:02:43] And so I remembered I enjoyed going plunking as a kid, and I thought, you know, target shooting seems like a, not a bad approach. It’s something I can do on my own. I can do it when I want to. So I went and got my license and that was not too complicated of a process, but, you know, it’s, it’s a process. And after that I had the thought of, you know, I really don’t want to be a, I don’t want to be the guy who gets in trouble because he doesn’t know the law. 

[00:03:12] And especially as, you know, as a lawyer or, you know, prospective lawyer, you really want to make sure that you’ve got all that stuff down because the court really takes a dim view of lawyers committing crimes. I thought I don’t want to sort of blunder into something. You know, the storage rules are complicated, the transport rules are complicated. Let’s really learn some of this, you know, just, and at this point I wasn’t thinking I want to do firearm law. 

[00:03:40] I was just thinking it’s important that I know these things because I want to stay out of trouble. And my first thought digging into it was actually, I am really kind of dumb because I was looking through all this and saying, I don’t understand this. A lot of this doesn’t make any sense to me. And obviously it has to make sense because this is, you know, the firearm laws. So I must be a little dumb here and. 

Travis Bader: [00:04:08] Sure, okay. 

Ian Runkle: [00:04:09] That was sort of my initial thought. 

Travis Bader: [00:04:10] Yeah. 

Ian Runkle: [00:04:11] And then. As I dug more into it, it was like, no, it’s not me. I’m understanding it. It’s just that the law is so complicated and in many places badly written that I went, huh. And there were places where it seemed like the courts and the, you know, lawyers, maybe weren’t understanding it because there are places where, uh, the law splits and what seems to have happened in those cases is that.

[00:04:41] An issue gets decided one way by, in some cases binding courts and then it gets heard again and nobody seems to be aware of those other prior cases. And so they don’t get brought to the attention of the courts, they don’t, uh, you know, they’re not mentioned. And then the court goes and finds a different way and then suddenly you’ve got these two separate interpretations.

[00:05:06] And so that makes it very difficult to, you know, when somebody says, can I do this? I go, well, it really depends on which case, you know, of these two sort of branching things. The court decides is the right one. 

Travis Bader: [00:05:21] Interesting. 

Ian Runkle: [00:05:22] And so that kind of stuff is fascinating to me. I love the puzzles. I love the trying to figure, all this stuff out. And so once I started finding just how much of that there was, I was like, this is what I want to do. And I know that that’s a kind of a terrible way to get into a, into a profession is where you’re saying this is so badly written that I just, that I love it. 

Travis Bader: [00:05:50] You like the game. 

Ian Runkle: [00:05:52] I, I mean, it’s, there’s. 

Travis Bader: [00:05:54] Gotta love it. 

Ian Runkle: [00:05:55] There’s sort of a puzzle to it.

Travis Bader: [00:05:56] Yeah. 

Ian Runkle: [00:05:56] You’re you’re trying to solve like, here’s what the law says, how does that actually work in practice? And, you know, is this something where we can, you know, are there places where this can be massaged in some fashion? Are there places where, um, where gaps in the law can be used to a clients advantage or alternately, uh, places where people can get trapped?

[00:06:12] Because there’s all sorts of situations where you can. I think you’re sort of right with the law, but be wrong about that. And, uh, so I try to clear those up for people, cause I hate seeing situations where people who I consider morally blameless are being dragged before the courts. Um, even if they’re ultimately acquitted, um, there have been cases where I thought the law was quite clear at, on something, but somebody ends up spending thousands of dollars fighting it.

Travis Bader: [00:06:55] Mmm, punishment by process. 

Ian Runkle: [00:06:57] I mean, it’s not intended to be punishment, they’re not, but I don’t think that the accused ever really thinks of it as not a punishment. 

Travis Bader: [00:07:05] Right, totally.  

Ian Runkle: [00:07:06] You know and I’ve had times where, you know, we’ve had to go to trial and, uh, we’ve won quite handily and the client says well how do I get my money back? Because you know, you’re expensive and I don’t, I, you know, I don’t fault you for that, but can I get my money back from the crown? And it’s like, no, and you know, that’s always a tough pill. Cause people were like, you mean I’m just out this money and it’s like, yeah. And you know, these are people who could see that I’d done good work for them. 

Travis Bader: [00:07:39] Sure. 

Ian Runkle: [00:07:39] That I fought hard for them, but it’s still kind of a rough thing to say, like, why did I have to hire somebody? Whereas, you know, if you think of sort of analogs of like, my car is parked out back, I can’t see it right now. If somebody went and set fire to it, I probably wouldn’t notice. I’d probably find out when the fire department or the police were knocking on my door going, did you know your car is on fire? Um, but if they found the person who did that to me, I’d be able to go after them and say, you owe me another car, right? 

[00:08:11] You will be the value of this car because you set fire to the one I had. But when people deal with sort of being harmed by the justice system by improper charges, there is no process to say, I need that back. Um, I tell, you know, one thing I tell people and, uh, I actually sorta crib this off, uh, Marie Henein who’s famous, uh, Ontario lawyer, just a real heavy hitter and inspiration quite honestly. But, uh, she’s was talking about how she tells clients that, you know, I can’t make you, make it like it never happened. 

Travis Bader: [00:08:50] Right. 

Ian Runkle: [00:08:50] But we can try to get you to the best possible future scenario of all the possible futures. That’s what we’re trying to aim for. And I think people sometimes have a real hard time with the whole notion of, you know, I’m never going to be made whole, I’m never going to be made right from this.

Travis Bader: [00:09:09] Yeah. 

Ian Runkle: [00:09:09] So. 

Travis Bader: [00:09:10] I know I would. 

Ian Runkle: [00:09:11] Yeah, well, and I, so that’s why I try to warn people and, you know, and say like, hey, this is a legal landmine and you need to be aware that it’s there. Don’t, you know, don’t go playing in that field because it’s going to go badly for you. 

Travis Bader: [00:09:26] Well, you’ve brought up, this is going to be a fun podcast. You’ve brought up a bunch of things, I’ve been taking some notes as you’re talking here. And one thing I should touch on because we jumped right into this is, you’ve got a massively growing social media presence under the brand Runkle of the Bailey. 

[00:09:47] And so people who have heard of this and I’m going to, I ended up just put this out here, I’m going to say a fair number of our listeners have probably already heard of you. But for those who haven’t heard of Runkle of the Bailey, we’re going to have some links in our blog and there’s going to be links attached to this podcast as well so you can go check it out. You’ve got a YouTube channel, you’ve got a Patrion channel you’re all over Twitter. 

[00:10:08] And you you’re sharing your thoughts and comments on laws and politics, but there’s definitely a, a firearms flavour to it. So I just want to get that plugin, check it out. It’ll be in the bio. You won’t regret it. There’s a lot to learn there. You know, we talked about this earlier, but a little, uh, a disclaimer at the get-go that nothing you talk about here is going to be legal advice. But I figured I’ll throw that in there, whether it’s worth a grain of salt or not, saying it will, uh, make sure we get it in. 

Ian Runkle: [00:10:39] Yeah. And I mean, if you ever are contemplating doing something like I can, the is full of exceptions and weird sort of corner cases. So if you’re ever saying like, I want to consider doing something or, you know, whenever the law starts becoming personal. You want to decide whether you should do something or not, or the police are at your door, that kind of thing. Once it’s sort of outside the academic field, you should really talk to a lawyer about it, about your situation specifically, because sometimes, you know, when we’re talking about the law, we might speak in generalities.

[00:11:17] But you might be personally within an exception, and that might be to your benefit or to your detriment because you know, it might be like, this is okay unless you’re doing this specific thing you’re doing so. 

Travis Bader: [00:11:31] Talking about police at the door, have you seen that? I’m sure you’ve seen the YouTube video with the, uh, very fast-talking counsel in the States who gives half of his time to talk about what a, what he would advise a client to do if the police were at the door and the other half, he gives over to a police officer to, uh, give his thoughts on. Have you seen that YouTube? 

Ian Runkle: [00:11:52] Yes. I think that one’s titled, don’t talk to the police I, he’s a law professor. I forget where he is uh, I believe, but, uh, I mean there’s a little bit in that that’s yeah, sort of specifically American. But by and large, uh, his, you know, what he tells people there is solid and the reasoning for it is solid. People don’t really realize how dangerous a police officer at your door is. And I don’t mean dangerous in the sense of, you know, this officer is probably not going to draw a side arm and shoot you.

Travis Bader: [00:12:25] Right. 

Ian Runkle: [00:12:26] You know, absent you giving them a very good reason, which I recommend not doing, but you know, you know, don’t pull a knife on the cop. It’s not going to end well for you, but.

Travis Bader: [00:12:37] Right.  

Ian Runkle: [00:12:38] Uh, people go in and the thing I hear all the time from people is, Oh, I just want to clear this up. Like I am in the right. And I just want to clear this up. And it’s like, first of all, you don’t know if you’re in the right. Um, you just don’t. Because you don’t have the legal background, you don’t have all the details. Uh, second, you don’t know what the cops investigating. You don’t know um, and you don’t know what’s dangerous necessarily. And even if you do know all of these things, you’re not going to be thinking straight enough to navigate this.

[00:13:13] Um, I saw a talk from another lawyer quite recently. Um, and they gave the example of a, uh, sexual assault, uh, allegation and all the police needed from the interview was an admission that the person had met the complainant. That was it. That was all they wanted. And so that admission, which seems super low key, can be a big deal. Um, I’ve seen people buried on the admissions, like, is this your car? That kind of thing. 

Travis Bader: [00:13:50] Right. 

Ian Runkle: [00:13:51] You know, things that you don’t think are dangerous questions can actually be super dangerous questions. You know, sometimes even your demeanour, your manner of speaking can end up being used against you. And, you know, I, I had one, uh, I ran a trial and some of the evidence against my co, you know, that came up was from his police interview where he didn’t say anything super incriminating, but just his, uh, uh, his accent, his voice, because now they’ve got a recording of that and then they could use it to match and say, is this the person you heard?

Travis Bader: [00:14:30] Right. 

Ian Runkle: [00:14:32] And you know, so just that recording can be dangerous. Um, you really want to be careful about all of that. And also the other thing is most people don’t realize how many things are crimes and how many things are, you know, potentially forbidden. Um, one that I see all the time is, uh, and this is from a case that I really dislike. It’s the case of the Queen and Felawka. 

Travis Bader: [00:14:58] Right. 

Ian Runkle: [00:14:59] And it’s a case where a guy who was being a, quite frankly, he was being a jackass. He was riding the sky train in Vancouver. 

Travis Bader: [00:15:09] I remember this one. 

Ian Runkle: [00:15:10] He had a rifle wrapped up, you know, or tucked under his jacket I forget his precise means of sort of hiding it, but it was sort of re you know, concealed in that fashion. Somebody noticed it and then when the, you know, when he was asked why he had it, he joked that he was going to go on a shooting spree, which makes him super unsympathetic, right? Nobody is on this guy side. 

[00:15:32] Um, but what the court’s decision ended up being is basically that so long as the firearm can’t be seen, it’s counted as concealed, even if your purposes for doing so, are good. You know, even if you’re trying to not do anything nefarious, you’re not hiding it because you’re planning on going up to somebody and shooting them or anything like that. But simply, you know, things like you want to prevent, uh, your firearms from being stolen. 

[00:16:01] You know, you don’t want your neighbours to know that they’re there so that your neighbours can’t break in and take them. Or you don’t want to alarm people. But the court, you know, so you’ll see people saying, Oh look, you know, this guitar case would make an excellent, uh, firearm transport case. It’s like, well, the Supreme court’s kind of said no on that. And you know, you should be aware of that because as much as I don’t typically see people charge for it, there’s no reason why they couldn’t.

Travis Bader: [00:16:31] You know.

Ian Runkle: [00:16:32] And.

Travis Bader: [00:16:32] I, that was a crazy one. I remember that Felawka one and that was, um, you’re right, totally not sympathetic at all. But wouldn’t intent, don’t do you think, I’m not a lawyer, but don’t you think there would be, have to be some level of intent in concealing? And I’ll tell you why I asked this one after, after. 

Ian Runkle: [00:16:51] Well, uh, the Supreme, I mean, there’s always sort of some level of intent, but the Supreme court has said that the, uh, the appropriate level of intent for being punishable is that you intentionally placed it into a, you know, a situation where it wouldn’t be seen so that you, you know, so for instance, or you know, where it might not be detectable in some fashion. 

[00:17:16] So, uh, you, you take your shotgun and you put it into a, you know, a bag or a map case or something like that, where it’s, you know, hidden, they were saying you don’t need to have sort of bad intentions. It doesn’t need to be a situation where you need to, uh, what is it, uh, where you need to be going after somebody. 

Travis Bader: [00:17:40] Yeah. 

Ian Runkle: [00:17:40] You know, the mens rea on that is really light um, and so that’s what we’re stuck with. It’s not a situation where it has to be like you’re planning on robbing a bank or anything like that. 

Travis Bader: [00:17:52] Yeah. I remember, I had a call once I was asked to put together a, a report for a local law firm. They had a fellow who’s a trapper and he had a revolver and licensed to have this thing good to go. I was talking with the conservation officer, then they called in the police and, uh, they were concerned because his revolver was on his hip, it was raining and cold and windy out and he did put a jacket on over top of it.

[00:18:18] And when they asked, where is his gun? Cause he mentioned he had one and he says like, he’s not going for it. He was telling us it’s right down here. And they started looking through his vehicle for it. He said, no, no, no, no, over here, right? And he’s  motioning with his head. The listeners can’t see me making the head motions here..

[00:18:32] And, uh, they tried to charge him with having a concealed weapon. And I’m not entirely sure how that went ended, I’m guessing positive. Cause I’ve never had, I had to go into court to, uh, to give any information on that one. But, um, it, that was where I was introduced to the Felawka one cause I was a part of his whole case there. 

Ian Runkle: [00:18:55] Yeah. And you know, it’s, uh, most people of course are not in a position where they can carry a revolver around on their hip. 

Travis Bader: [00:19:01] Right. 

Ian Runkle: [00:19:02] But, uh, you know, you, where you see it, uh, quite commonly is situations like people with a pocket knife and people say, well, it’s a pocket knife. Where was it? It was in my pocket. And, you know, uh, the main question can end up being, is this a, uh, is this a weapon, but let’s say you say something stupid to the police, which is almost anything that you say to the police. 

Travis Bader: [00:19:29] Yes. 

Ian Runkle: [00:19:29] But you know, people, what happens is like, you know, let’s say you’re driving along and you got a speeding ticket a while back. And you were busy, you know, maybe a family member died, maybe your house burned down, maybe all sorts of things, right. You know, life gets in the way. And so then you forget about the ticket and in your absence, they have your trial date for the ticket. They convict you an absence. And then they give you a day that you have to pay.

[00:19:59] They send you a notice, but again, you know, you’re still dealing with life fall out and this speeding ticket is the last thing on your mind. Well, eventually they’ll issue a warrant for your arrest. You know, then you’ve got these unpaid fines and so then you get arrested and you get taken down to the station and you’re going to have to pay this, you know, this ticket to get out. 

[00:20:21] But in the course of getting arrested, you’re going to get padded down because the cop does not want you in his car if maybe you’ve got a handgun in your, you know, your jacket, um, maybe you’ve got, you know, a brick of C4 , whatever it is, you know, they don’t want you having. So they pat you down to make sure that you don’t have anything dangerous and they find this knife.

[00:20:42] And the question they’ll always ask is, what’s this for? And lot of the time people say, oh, well, you know, it’s a real dangerous neighbourhood. So that’s why I’ve got this knife is because, you know, it’s a real dangerous neighbourhood and I might need to protect myself. And now they’re charged with carrying a concealed weapon. 

Travis Bader: [00:20:59] Yep. 

Ian Runkle: [00:20:59] Because now they’ve just admitted that it’s there as a weapon and that, um, and it was carried in their pocket. And I can, you know, in almost every case, you’re talking about people who’ve never used this knife violently, would not use this knife violently, except if they were in danger for themselves in a real way, you know, somebody else’s attacked them. You know, these are not sort of dangerous people. Um, but they’re just people who are maybe a little too honest.

[00:21:30] Um, whereas sometimes I see sort of more practiced, you know, seasoned, uh, experienced people in front of the courts, you know, which means that they’ve got a criminal record that might be a small novel. And the cop asks, why do you have this? And they say something along the lines of get effed, and that’s a much better statement believe it or not. 

Travis Bader: [00:21:52] Yeah.

Ian Runkle: [00:21:53] Be polite to police, I recommend that generally, because you don’t want to make the police officer have a personal interest in you. But still, you don’t want to give anything away. And that statement of, I had this for self-defence is a terrible thing to say, and is actually worse than the, you know, the go after yourself statement at the end of the day, because that guy didn’t admit anything.

Travis Bader: [00:22:16] No kidding. 

Ian Runkle: [00:22:17] And you know, I might be that the first guy who made the admission has only ever used this knife for, or, you know, opening chip bags. And the second guy has stabbed several people in his life. And it’s still that second guy, who’s more likely to walk in that case so. 

Travis Bader: [00:22:35] Yeah. Well, that’s where experience comes in, I guess.

Ian Runkle: [00:22:38] Yeah. I mean, it’s probably that he’s done some jail time to learn that lesson, you know, and had a few rounds with lawyers saying, really why did you say that to the police? Before they learned it, but, uh, people don’t necessarily like the, uh, they don’t like hearing, I will tell you when they’re sitting in your office and you say you would have walked, but for, you to talk to the police.

Travis Bader: [00:23:05] Yeah, no, no. I think that’d be a hard pill to swallow. 

Ian Runkle: [00:23:09] It. It definitely is. Especially with people who view themselves as sort of law abiding and very much pro-social people. I mean, uh, I’ve talked to people who have been like family members of police officers. And, you know, one guy said, basically, it’s going to be real hard at Thanksgiving dinner because I’ve always had this very positive view of the police.

[00:23:32] And now that’s been very much shaken and, you know, I’m, I, I’m going to have to decide whether or not I bring this up and we might have a fight over this at Thanksgiving dinner. And I was just like, yep. 

Travis Bader: [00:23:48] Yeah, yeah. You know, I’ve raised in a family of law enforcement and seeing being around law enforcement all my life. And it’s just like any other profession. You’re going to have the small few who are really good, the small few who are really bad. And then the rest of the majority who are just plugging through the day, gettin their way to retirement and if it looks really difficult, maybe they’ll leave it for somebody else. And it’s just human nature right? 

Ian Runkle: [00:24:16] Oh for sure. I mean, I’ve told people, I said like there are police officers out there that I would absolutely like, I mean, I got destroyed in a trial at one point because there was a small charter violation that, the officer had screwed up and he got up on the stand and admitted he screwed up. And why he did and you know, so forth. And that just flattened me because I was hoping that this charter violation would be a bigger deal than it was. 

[00:24:43] But, uh, once he gets up there and just, you know, was, and he basically said, I, I screwed up, I’m sorry. Um, you know, and I’ve seen officers go above and beyond for things. I’ve seen officers just really, uh, you know, really sort of. 

Travis Bader: [00:25:02] Sure.

Ian Runkle: [00:25:02] Go through heroic and exceptional circumstances. 

Travis Bader: [00:25:05] Sure. 

Ian Runkle: [00:25:06] Um, and I’ve seen officers who, quite frankly, and I’m not going to name any names, but there’s, you know, some people who I’ve just thought like, wow, you should be in jail. But a lot of people are just doing their job, you know, the same way that the guy, you know, at the McDonald’s who gets your order wrong, probably isn’t doing it because he hates you.

Travis Bader: [00:25:28] Right. 

Ian Runkle: [00:25:28] You know, he’s probably not like, you know, screw that Runkle guy. I’m going to make sure he gets, he doesn’t get his McNuggets, you know. It’s probably just these going through his job. He’s not trying to do a bad job, but he’s also really not super invested in it either. 

Travis Bader: [00:25:45] Right. 

Ian Runkle: [00:25:47] And that’s fine, but it also results in some mistakes and it results sometimes in them saying like, listen, um, we’ll let the, you know, you said that you’ve got an innocent reason for having this knife, we’ll let the courts sorted out. That’ll be somebody else’s problem down the road, and unfortunately for you, that might mean thousands of dollars of sorting it out down the road. 

Travis Bader: [00:26:11] So, and I know we’re going to talk with some firearm stuff, but, um, knives that open under centrifugal force. Do you see many people actually getting charged under that? Because my question is, how much centrifugal force? I mean, if you, you attach it to a big long two by four and whip the thing out, you’re going to get any folding knife to open up. 

Ian Runkle: [00:26:32] So the test is basically could a person do that. 

Travis Bader: [00:26:36] Sure. 

Ian Runkle: [00:26:37] But  it doesn’t necessarily have to be the average person. Um, it can be the biggest beefiest police officer on the force and police officers tend, as a category, to be, you know, stronger and more athletic than the average Canadian. 

Travis Bader: [00:26:53] Sure. 

Ian Runkle: [00:26:54] Um, You know, so like the viewers can’t see, but I’ve got scrawny, skinny little arms. So I might take a knife and I want to test it to make sure it’s legal and I might yard on this thing as hard as I can and it just doesn’t budge. But when you get a guy who, you know, who can bench press my weight with ease all day and not tire. That guy might be able to snap that open. And so that would still put it in the category of illegal, which kind of makes it interesting that your court case can depend on basically, can they find a big enough cop to.

Travis Bader: [00:27:33] To whip it out? Or somebodies got the technique down pat. 

Ian Runkle: [00:27:37] Yeah, but I mean it excludes, uh, things like mechanical assistance, in the sense of either using a long lever or. 

Travis Bader: [00:27:46] Okay. 

Ian Runkle: [00:27:46] You know, if you attach this to some sort of spinning apparatus that span really fast and then stopped suddenly to flick it out, um, you know, that would also. You know, if you built some like super power robot arm to flick things out, I mean, you could build, in theory, a robot arm that could flick the, uh, the blade head off of a fixed blade knife. 

Travis Bader: [00:28:09] Right. 

Ian Runkle: [00:28:10] So there’s a, the limit is basically human capabilities, but not necessarily your capabilities, but you do get cases, uh, that hinge on whether the accused knew it. Because sometimes it’s like, there’s one where they had a big beafy police officer there and it took the police officer in court something like six tries to get it open. And they said, okay, the knife is itself banned. It’s a prohibited knife because it’s possible to flick it open. But I accept that this person didn’t know that it it’s possible to flick open because it was real hard for this police officer to do.

Travis Bader: [00:28:50] Right. 

Ian Runkle: [00:28:51] So, um, All of this is real complicated, but do you, do I see people get charged? Yes, I do. Um, and I mean, most of us don’t typically come to the attention of law enforcement all the time, but you know, I’ve seen people picked up and charged with things that are, you know, somebody who’s watching TV too loud and the neighbours call it in.

[00:29:16] And the police think it’s a domestic violence situation when actually it was the TV and, you know, the police searched them and find this knife and go, yep, that’s a flick knife. And some of these knives that are readily are actually readily available. I did a video where I noted that, uh, uh, Home Depot at the time.

[00:29:36] I don’t know, I haven’t checked recently, but I assume probably still, uh, was advertising the flick openable properties of some of their knives. Like they literally had a, a video of some people, uh, flicking it open and you know, this is a selling point. 

Travis Bader: [00:29:57] Sure. 

Ian Runkle: [00:29:58] And you know, quite frankly, there’s all sorts of situations where for lawful reasons, having a knife that flicks open is fantastic. 

Travis Bader: [00:30:06] Sure. 

Ian Runkle: [00:30:07] I mean, if you’re a climber and you are, you know, clinging to a rope 400 feet above the ground and you need to cut something. Um, two handed operation is a real disadvantage. You know, if you are in a confined space, somebody who was talking to me about their seatbelt knife, you know, the, uh, nice that they had for the purpose of getting out of the seatbelt. And now this thing, I don’t know if it would count as a knife for this purposes of this law, because it was actually a, uh, sort of, uh, hooked, contained blade. 

Travis Bader: [00:30:41] Right.

Ian Runkle: [00:30:42] You wouldn’t really be able to use this against a person. Um, but it folded open. And I sent to them. I said, I don’t think that’s what you want and they said, well, why not? And I said, let’s say you’re in a situation where you’ve been in a car accident, you’re pinned, your vehicles have crushed and you need to get out of your seatbelt right now. Can you guarantee you’ve got two hands to open this up in order to get that seatbelt cutter open and they went, huh.

[00:31:11] I’m like, you might be doing this, reaching out one handed to pick up the seatbelt cutter and doing that and you might be doing it in fact with one broken arm that has no strength to it, you know? So there’s, um, you know, I’ve talked to people who have one hand, like they literally lost, you know, guy who’s a veteran lost, you know, a hand serving overseas and he say, and what do you mean? I needed two handed opening pocket knife you know, I’ve only got one. 

Travis Bader: [00:31:44] The funny thing on that is, what’s faster than having a knife that can flick open, is one that’s already open and that’s perfectly legal. 

Ian Runkle: [00:31:52] Oh, I mean, you could have a fixed blade knife all day. And in fact a fixed blade knife is never going to run into the flick knife problem. You can’t get charged with having a flick knife on a fixed blade. 

Travis Bader: [00:32:02] Yeah, it just, some of these things boggle the mind. But when I was doing some research here, I came across, speaking of boggling the mind, I came across a, I think it was an ATT condition challenge, it had your name attached to it. And the, the part that really got me, because I’ve heard it on more than one occasion was, we’re not denying you issuance of privileged certificate, authorization, whatever it might be, uh, we’re just not giving it to you. 

Ian Runkle: [00:32:37] Yep and, uh, that was. 

Travis Bader: [00:32:39] How does that work? How does that work? 

Ian Runkle: [00:32:42] Well in Alberta right now, it doesn’t. So the argument that, uh, so what happened here in this case was, uh, Alberta had been in the practice of putting gunsmiths on all long-term authorizations to transport. And this makes sense if you think about it, because you might have a problem where your firearm fails in an unsafe way. Or possibly fails in a way where it might be illegal for it to continue to exist.

[00:33:10] You know, your guns, something is broken in it and it’s now firing full auto. You don’t want that, you want to correct this immediately, if not sooner. Now let’s say it’s Friday and it’s 4:30 PM. CFO’s gone home for the day. CFO’s not coming back tomorrow and they’re not coming back the day after, they’re going to be there first thing Monday morning, and you’re thinking what I want to take this to a gunsmith right now.

[00:33:38] You know, I want to solve this or maybe you’ve got a stuck cartridge and you’re thinking I want to get this cartridge out because this is a potentially dangerous situation. I don’t want, you know, I don’t want to be sitting here rocking a potentially loaded gun.

[00:33:53] Um, and so the, uh, so in Alberta, the practice was, we’ll put gunsmiths on your long-term authorizations to transport. In Ontario, their practice was, we will not do that. So a couple of people in Ontario brought challenges, saying, we want long, we want gunsmiths on our long-term ATTs. And they won in part because the practice in Alberta was to allow it.

Travis Bader: [00:34:21] Interesting.

Ian Runkle: [00:34:22] And so the response to that was they got all the CFOs together and they said you can’t put those on anybody’s anymore. So Alberta then changed their policy to remove gunsmiths from all the long-term authorizations to transport. So I got one of these new, I renewed my license, got a new long-term ATT and of course it does not have gunsmiths on it anymore.

[00:34:45] And so I say, I want gunsmiths back on it please. And so I applied saying, I specifically what my ATT my long-term ATT to include gunsmiths. And so they said, well, we’ve issued you an ATT a long-term ATT, um, but it’s not going to include gunsmiths and tough. And I sort of went,  but that’s not what I wanted.

Travis Bader: [00:35:10] Right. 

Ian Runkle: [00:35:11] So they said, um, tough. So I brought a challenge and their argument was that the court didn’t have jurisdiction to, uh, to review it because they didn’t refuse me an ATT, they just granted me a different one than the one I asked for. And the court did not have a whole lot of patience for that argument.

[00:35:33] And so they, uh, the court basically said, sorry, um, if you are not granting it as requested, you know, if we’re leaving requested things out, then that is at least a refusal in part and so you’ve got to, you know, go through that proper process. 

Travis Bader: [00:35:49] Right. 

Ian Runkle: [00:35:50] Um, they don’t like that decision. But you know, one of the arguments, one of the things that they got challenged with at, uh, in court was, you know, the, the justice asked, you know, so let me get this straight. If somebody asks for an ATT to go to the range and you instead said, no, we’re, we’re going to issue you an ATT, but it says you can take your guns only to the police station for disposal. Would that not count as a refusal? And they said, no, it would not. And the justice was like, that makes no sense to me. 

Travis Bader: [00:36:25] Not at all. 

Ian Runkle: [00:36:26] So, you know, obviously, going with their argument would have permitted some pretty drastic abuses and dodging of the whole, uh, dodging of the review process. And so ultimately the, uh, ultimately they, the court said, no, you know, that’s a refusal, but we’re still seeing that kind of argument. I mean, in my view, that’s sort of what’s going on with this whole, uh,  AR-15 thing where they said. 

Travis Bader: [00:36:56] Sure. 

Ian Runkle: [00:36:57] You know, oh, we’re not revoking your certificate, we’re just declaring it as having been administratively expired. It’s like, well, that’s not a thing I’m just making up, you know, oh, it was nullified. 

Travis Bader: [00:37:12] Yeah. It’s a thing now because we just said it.

Ian Runkle: [00:37:14] Yeah. They they’re trying to sort of write their own laws. What it seems like to me and ultimately a court may or may not agree with me. This is going to be a major battle. I think it’s likely to end up at the Supreme court. But, um, you know, cause we’ve got court battles going on in every province so far as I’m aware. 

[00:37:32] Um, multiple court battles and they’re coming up with different results, including within provinces, they’re coming up with different results. So I don’t see how this goes anywhere, other than the Supreme court. Which, uh, might end up being my second trip to Ottawa. 

Travis Bader: [00:37:51] Well you brought up, well, a couple things I was writing down here. So one is just as a bit of an aside, you’re talking about, well, bring in a firearm to the police for destruction. If memory serves me correctly, there’s actually exemptions within there’s provisions within the criminal code that’ll allow for taking a firearm, if it’s being done immediately, to the police for destruction, is there not? 

Ian Runkle: [00:38:14] Uh, I I’d have to check. I believe you still need an authorization of transport. 

Travis Bader: [00:38:18] Do you? 

Ian Runkle: [00:38:18] For Restricted’s. Um, and the other thing is that the police really don’t like it if you show up on announced to the firearm. 

Travis Bader: [00:38:24] No. No. 

Ian Runkle: [00:38:25] Um, my grandmother did this and this was sometime ago, and I can tell this story, uh, because she’s dead and therefore is not likely to be prosecuted or, and she’s also not going to get upset with me, at least not that I know of. 

Travis Bader: [00:38:38] Right.  

Ian Runkle: [00:38:38] Um, for telling the story, but apparently there was a handgun in the family that, uh, and this was like one of these old, uh, sort of self-defence, uh, ladies purse pistols kind of thing.

Travis Bader: [00:38:51] Sure. 

Ian Runkle: [00:38:52] Um, one that’s able to hit a man size target at basically grabbing reach range. You know, people tried it out, it shot a group apparently about the size of a barn. And so it was not a great gun. Nobody wanted this thing and it got turned, you know, so she was figuring, I gotta turn this into the police.

[00:39:14] And so she walked into the police station apparently and told them I have something for you. And the officer’s like, okay and pulls out this gun out of her purse and the officer like snatches it out of her hand and was super unhappy about this. And she did not feel that she was well-treated by that officer in that circumstance.

Travis Bader: [00:39:37] Yeah, probably, probably not. 

Ian Runkle: [00:39:39] She felt that the officer was very rude. And, you know, maybe you should, uh, you know, given her a little more regard in that moment and I’m going okay, but you could have been killed. 

Travis Bader: [00:39:51] Yeah exactly. 

Ian Runkle: [00:39:51] So don’t, don’t show up at the police station unannounced with firearms. I’ve had a few situations where I’ve done, you know, turn ins and it’s always been a matter of just so you know, here, I’m going to be bringing a firearm to you, here’s what I’m going to look like, you know, let’s work this out ahead of time. 

[00:40:11] And I mean, in some of those cases, it’s been a situation where like I walk into a busy police station. I sort of give the hand wave to the person behind the scenes. They’re like, let’s take you over somewhere else. 

Travis Bader: [00:40:22] Right. 

Ian Runkle: [00:40:23] So we’re not doing this in front of everybody’s view. It’s very, you know, very subdued, very, you know, but you really don’t want to get anyone excited over the fact that you’ve got a gun at a police station. 

Travis Bader: [00:40:34] No kidding. 

Ian Runkle: [00:40:35] Sometimes these happened like at the back door is just like, I will come to the back door, I will call you when I’m here. Um, you guys could come up and I will just pop my trunk and you guys can pick it up out of there. And you know, everybody’s got their own different procedures for it, but. Getting an ATT so that they know it’s coming is not a bad idea. 

Travis Bader: [00:40:55] Yeah, no kidding. I, uh, I’m going to have to reread that section again, but, honestly, not a lawyer and I’m not a, I always stuck in the back of my head. I thought the way I’m reading this, it looks like they might have an exemption, if it’s bringing, let’s say you find a gun and it’s not in a safe area and he wanted to bring it to the police.

Ian Runkle: [00:41:13] There’s a different,  there’s a different provision for if you find one.

Travis Bader: [00:41:17] Right. 

Ian Runkle: [00:41:19] And that covers all sorts of exceptions as well, but that’s different than if it’s your gun. 

Travis Bader: [00:41:24] Okay. And it was a found one that, uh, that I read and I’ve always wondered. What’s to stop these guys, these gangbangers, from going around and say, Oh, I just found this gun, I was just taking it to the police station when he pulled me over, I’m so glad you’re here. 

Ian Runkle: [00:41:39] Well, and the thing is, is they absolutely could say that, but I guarantee you, you know, if you are turning in, like, let’s say you’re off in the woods and you know, you find a handgun and, you know, you call the cops as soon as you find this handgun, it’s been clearly, you know, chucked off an overpass and you know, it’s in the bushes and you come across it and you call the police. 

[00:42:02] Say, I found this handgun, I’m not touching it, but I want you to know where I am come pick it up and the police come pick it up and they take it to ballistics and it turns out it was used in a murder three days prior.

[00:42:15] I guarantee you, you are on the list of people they are investigating with respect to, you know, what’s going on with this gun, you know, because they will absolutely be a, they’ll absolutely have some questions for you. 

Travis Bader: [00:42:31] Totally. 

Ian Runkle: [00:42:32] It’s not going to be just like, Oh, well, thanks for the gun. Um, We have no follow-up questions and we don’t need your name. Like, you know.

Travis Bader: [00:42:41] Well, that’s where they go see somebody like yourself, get legal counsel who has the privilege of being able to drop something off and saying, I got to tell you nothing. 

Ian Runkle: [00:42:50] Yup. And, you know, hiring a lawyer to do that sort of thing is a fantastic way to go. Um, and you know, you can have situations where it’s just like, um, hey, um, I’m a lawyer, here’s what’s going on. You know, somebody wanted this reported, it’s being reported and they’re like, well, who’s your client. Fun fact about that, no. Well, we really need to know who your client is again, no. 

Travis Bader: [00:43:16] Right. 

Ian Runkle: [00:43:17] And you know, the cops don’t like that, of course. But, uh, you know, that might be better for your happiness.

Travis Bader: [00:43:24] Well one, you know, we’ve got opt in and opt out provinces CFOs that are appointed federally or appointed provincially. Do you find on firearms related issues that there’s a lot of ball passing when you try and put something forward as in no, no, this is a federal issue. No, no, it’s a provincial issue.

Ian Runkle: [00:43:45] What I see more is that the feds have really tried to, uh, you know, take as much power as they can. 

Travis Bader: [00:43:53] Okay. 

Ian Runkle: [00:43:54] Um, they, they don’t want to pass the buck. They want, they want the buck. 

Travis Bader: [00:43:58] Okay. 

Ian Runkle: [00:43:58] Um, and so, uh, bill C 21, for instance, proposes, uh, to take some power from the, uh, from the provincial CFOs. 

Travis Bader: [00:44:10] Right. 

Ian Runkle: [00:44:11] And so, you know, it’s very much a situation where they’re saying, you know, we want to, uh, you know, we want to make sure the CFOs can’t do things that are currently within their power.

Travis Bader: [00:44:25] Right. 

Ian Runkle: [00:44:26] And, uh, so I mean, there was the whole firearms reference, which was basically the big question of can the federal government legislate in this area, because previously it was sort of viewed as a provincial responsibility. So yeah. 

Travis Bader: [00:44:47] You know, I I’m sure like we’re talking earlier and you’ve been really busy with C-21, I mean, there’s so, so much insanity with, to unpack in that one uh. 

Ian Runkle: [00:44:59] It’s a jam packed bill full of things I don’t agree with. And I think a lot of Canadians would have problems with it, to be honest.

Travis Bader: [00:45:08] If you were to, I just did a podcast a couple of days ago. And by the time the listeners are listening to this, it’ll be a longer span between it. But, uh, the, uh, the opinion in there that was with, uh, Daniel Fritter of Calibre Press and Ryan Stacey of IBI. And they’re talking about the political side of, of all of this and, uh, thinking that the chances of this thing actually being proposed as if it’s going to pass or, or probably, probably nothing to worry about.

[00:45:38] The actual law is something to worry about, but maybe this is more of a political game. Would, would you view it from that same sort of perspective? 

Ian Runkle: [00:45:47] Um, yes and no. I mean, the, uh, the thing that we have going on right now is that, uh, they are, I don’t think this is going to get through in the current set, you know, in the current sort of period. So right now this iteration of the bill is probably not going to go through. But that doesn’t mean that they can’t reintroduce it later, like that, that this bill isn’t a problem. 

Travis Bader: [00:46:14] Right.

Ian Runkle: [00:46:14] And the liberal party has steadfastly defended the notion that there’s any problems with it. They said everything in this is is perfect. And it’s hunky dory and um, you know, what are you guys getting upset about? So, um, they may just, you know, they may be using this as election fodder to try and get elected, but they may well try to bring this back in exactly the same shape, it’s in. Or they may not, it may be that this is one of these bills that they float now, you know, try to bang the drum on for an election and then never bring up again. 

Travis Bader: [00:46:50] Right. 

Ian Runkle: [00:46:51] So it’s really hard to tell, but I don’t think it’s safe to assume that it’s just not going to be a problem because it really might. Uh, yeah.  

Travis Bader: [00:47:01] Yeah. Well, we’re getting a lot of calls that’s for sure from, uh, from club members from the general public, from media. Big concern is obviously around the talk of municipal handgun bans. 

Ian Runkle: [00:47:15] Yeah and. 

Travis Bader: [00:47:16] And it doesn’t even seem constitutional, let alone, like how do you affect something like this?

Ian Runkle: [00:47:21] Well, the way they’re affecting it is actually, and I’m going to have a video on this, I hope it’ll be out tomorrow, but we’ll see.

Travis Bader: [00:47:28] Okay. 

Ian Runkle: [00:47:28] Um, but, uh, they’re actually adding it as a condition to people’s firearms licenses. And so, you know, as gun owners, we often say, oh, well this is targeting law abiding gun owners and not the criminals. And usually what we mean, what we mean by that is that it’s going to be something that’s criminals will ignore, but this goes a step further. It’s something that the criminals are actually immune to, because you can only be prosecuted under the municipal handgun ban if you have a handgun license. 

Travis Bader: [00:47:58] Oh my god.

Ian Runkle: [00:48:00] So, um, it’s literally only, you know, people with a license who can be charged. 

Travis Bader: [00:48:07] Man. 

Ian Runkle: [00:48:08] And so, you know, you and I are at risk from this law, but somebody who’s a drug dealer doesn’t care. Literally, you know, if they’re, they literally cannot face charges under it, they cannot be convicted under it. Um, they are just completely immune.

Travis Bader: [00:48:30] Yeah, that, uh, that makes a lot of sense, you know, I mean come on, gimme a break. 

Ian Runkle: [00:48:35] I mean, it’s, uh, you know, it’s very clear who they think the problem is, when that’s what the legislation says. 

Travis Bader: [00:48:43] And then another one they’re talking about is replicas. Now, replica are already prohibited, but they’re. 

Ian Runkle: [00:48:50] Yep. They’re already banned. Uh, what they want to ban now is kids’ toys. 

Travis Bader: [00:48:55] Right. 

Ian Runkle: [00:48:55] Um, and I mean, I say kids’ toys, although there are a lot of adults who play airsoft as well. 

Travis Bader: [00:49:00] Sure. 

Ian Runkle: [00:49:00] But they want to ban toys, is what it comes down to. So, um, I mean, there’s a lot of people who are super upset by that because, you know, there’s a lot of people for whom airsoft is a substantial aspect of their life, you know, they’re, uh, they view this as very, uh, you know, significant. I was talking to, one guy was saying how, you know, he’s a new Canadian.

[00:49:26] And you know, when he came here, he came and found that there were, that he had no community, you know, we didn’t know anybody here and that it’s really hard to make friends right? It’s, you know. 

Travis Bader: [00:49:39] Sure. 

Ian Runkle: [00:49:39] As adults, people tend to have their friend groups. You’re not typically looking to add more people to socialize with. And so what he found was airsoft. Because, you know, the airsoft community, he could, you know, sign up, like he could show up and people were happy to have him. And, you know, even if his English wasn’t great, people were happy too you know, people were happy to put the effort in because they had a shared interest.

Travis Bader: [00:50:03] Right. 

Ian Runkle: [00:50:04] And you know, so he said, these are the people he socializes with. These are the people, you know, this is his community. And he was near tears talking about, you know, they want to break the, like, what do you mean they want to take this away from me? And I’m going, you know, and you know, people, I had various people from various sorts of walks of life, business owners, and so forth who have all been asking me to, uh, reassure them that the law isn’t as bad as it seems. And um, unfortunately I don’t have a whole lot of reassurance for them.

Travis Bader: [00:50:37] Wow. You know, I don’t know if I read it correctly, but they were also saying something about, well, we’ll make them prohibited, but those who already have and can keep them. It, was that in there? 

Ian Runkle: [00:50:46] Yeah, that was in there.  Yeah, it’s bizarre. 

Travis Bader: [00:50:51] It doesn’t make sense. If people are regular listeners and they’ve listened to the previous podcast before, prior to this, one of um, my solutions for the air softers and it’d be interesting to you get somebody like yourselves perspective on this. If it was never designed as a replica to begin with, then it can’t be considered a replica. For example, if you have a live firearm that is then de-activated, that is in guts, pulled out and put some green gas and parts inside it, technically I would think, not being a lawyer, maybe you’d be okay. 

Ian Runkle: [00:51:27] That one would be legally questionable. Um, the one that’s legally not questionable is they make, um, airsoft gas shotgun shells. 

Travis Bader: [00:51:37] Okay. 

Ian Runkle: [00:51:37] And these are deliberately sized to not match to any existing gauge of firearm, um, because they really didn’t want them fitting in an existing gauge a firearm, but you could, um, you could build, you know, like 3d print a sleeve or something to, uh, to fit into it, to make it properly fit into, for instance, a 12 gauge. 

Travis Bader: [00:52:00] Sub chamber.

Ian Runkle: [00:52:01] Yup. 

Travis Bader: [00:52:02] Yeah. 

Ian Runkle: [00:52:02] And then you could run around with these airsoft shotgun shells loaded into actual 12 gauges shooting at each other. 

Travis Bader: [00:52:13] Uh, so that just highlights the, um, the level of thought that was put into all this I’m sure. 

Ian Runkle: [00:52:19] I mean, really what it comes down to is that the police have never liked airsoft. They’ve never seen much purpose for it, you know, as an institution. And, you know, they don’t care if you have a hobby that’s, you know, enjoyable. Um, you know, quite frankly, I think that they would have been happy to ban hydroponic gardening equipment, just to shut down, uh, shut down grow ups. 

Travis Bader: [00:52:45] Yeah. 

Ian Runkle: [00:52:46] So, you know, asking the police for a wishlist of what they want to ban is not a great way to go about things because the police don’t tend to have a whole lot of regard for your rights, for what, uh, you know, for what makes you happy. What fulfills you as a human being. 

Travis Bader: [00:53:05] Sure. 

Ian Runkle: [00:53:06] Because, you know, people say, oh, you don’t need this. It’s like, well, we actually need a lot more than food, water, air. We have needs for personal fulfillment, we have needs for community, we have needs for all of these things. And you know, these are ways people satisfy these needs.

[00:53:25] It’s going to be interesting because I think that, uh, I think that they may have bit off, more than they could chew because quite frankly, uh, firearm ownership, maybe doesn’t have a whole lot of sympathy in Canada. But, you know, airsoft, I think as people are just engaging in a harmless hobby, I mean the number of killings with an airsoft gun in Canada, I think is holding steady at zero.

[00:53:49] And the projection for this year is another zero and the projection for the year after that is another zero. So, it’s. 

Travis Bader: [00:53:58] But they look scary, right?

Ian Runkle: [00:54:01] I mean they look scary. But people are responsible with them and, you know, maybe it’s time not to be scared of things that just look scary, you know, um. 

Travis Bader: [00:54:11] Hundred percent. 

Ian Runkle: [00:54:12] Like somebody having a, you know, wearing a mask might look scary, but oh, well, you know, get over it. 

Travis Bader: [00:54:21] Right. And, and it strikes me, there’s already provisions in place. If somebody were to take this scary looking airsoft, now replica, it, they’ll still be charged with a firearms offence, if they try and use it at the local liquor store.

Ian Runkle: [00:54:36] Yup. I mean, if you take an airsoft gun and try to rob a liquor store with it, you will be committing very serious firearm related offences. 

Travis Bader: [00:54:43] Right. 

Ian Runkle: [00:54:44] Because airsoft guns are counted as firearms for most of those provisions, they just don’t need a license, but, you know, you know, if you point them at another person without a lawful excuse and hey, we’re playing an airsoft game would be a lawful excuse.

[00:55:00] But, you know, I decided to bring this to the supermarket and shoot people in the parking lot would not be a lawful excuse. You can get charged with pointing a firearm, which is a very serious criminal offence. So, you know, we’re talking about things that are very safe, where, you know, they have a very responsible community.

[00:55:20] And you know, that community includes a lot of police officers. It includes a lot of, you know, ex military or current military. It includes a lot of people who just want a hobby to, you know, blow off a little steam to just feel, um, feel that community. 

Travis Bader: [00:55:38] Sure. 

Ian Runkle: [00:55:39] And enjoys getting some exercise, right? I mean, it’s, sometimes it’s tough to drag yourself up to the gym and get some exercise. And the government talks about, oh, well, we need to make sure everybody’s, you know, fit and so forth, but now we need to shut down. This sport is actually keeping some people fit and in shape. 

Travis Bader: [00:55:58] Right. It’s easy to run when someone’s chasing you with something that will hurt when they shoot you with it. 

Ian Runkle: [00:56:03] I mean, that’s the thing is, you know, I I’m terrible though, going to the gym, I’m going to treadmill in my garage and I make it out to use that thing way less often than I should. And you know, my shirts are starting to show it. So, um, but when you’re out running and you’re, you know, you’re trying to achieve an objective. You know, you’re trying to take that hill. Um, you don’t really feel it as much, and you’re certainly not as bored. Like a treadmill is boring. I have trouble running on a treadmill because I have attention deficit and it just, it bores me to death.

[00:56:44] I’m not bored to death when I’m playing airsoft. I’m, you know, that’s exciting, that’s, you know, and I come back and my legs are burning. You know, my, my lungs are, you know, like I’ve got that ache because my asthma and so forth, but I’ve actually got that cardio in. Yes, please. You know, I want more of that in my life. Not less.

Travis Bader: [00:57:04] Totally. Attention deficit, huh? Um.

Ian Runkle: [00:57:07] Yeah.

Travis Bader: [00:57:08] I was diagnosed with that at an early age and I think it was on the highest dosage of Ritalin in the province up until, uh, about grade seven there, when I said that’s it I’m off. And they had me on a experimental program. How did you find law school with, uh, it was it ADD, ADHD?

Ian Runkle: [00:57:26] Um, I mean, they’re all. 

Travis Bader: [00:57:27] The same. 

Ian Runkle: [00:57:28] Psychologists sort of view them as all the same sort of category here. Just kind of different expressions. I tend to be more of the daydreamy sort than the bouncing off walls, but I mean, it’s got its own challenges and you, uh, you have to learn to adapt and you have to learn that sometimes these strategies that work well for other people, aren’t what works well for you.

[00:57:48] And so, you know, but I, and the other thing that is always a challenge is that if you’re known to have, you know, what is classified as a learning disability, um, applying for jobs gets fun because people say, hey, you’ve got this learning disability, maybe we don’t want to, uh, you know, maybe we’re concerned about that. And, you know, that’s more so before you get a chance to prove yourself, you know, when you’re just coming out of the gate and you’re trying to get a foothold. 

Travis Bader: [00:58:18] Right. 

Ian Runkle: [00:58:19] But, you know, I’ve been open about, uh, you know, what I have to deal with and, you know, the fact that, uh, you know, and I think I’m better for it. Hopefully there’s other people out there who are thinking, you know, can I be a lawyer with attention deficit? Yes, you can. You’re just going to have to figure out how to make it work for you. Um, but. I mean, sometimes it’s a matter of like, Hey, you’ve got a deadline, you got to work on that, you know, ahead of time.

[00:58:47] Or maybe it’s just, you got to block out a week to do it. And you know, you’re going to have to figure out some other way to manage your other responsibilities, but you need to just turtle up and, you know, sort of grind this out, even if it hurts. Um, you know, there’s different sort of strategies and, you know, good, uh, a good assistant is fantastic um. 

Travis Bader: [00:59:11] Yep. 

Ian Runkle: [00:59:12] Shout out to Devin here who, uh, not sure where he is at the moment, but, uh, uh, for many years he was, uh, possibly I think the best assistant out there, anywhere. 

Travis Bader: [00:59:24] Yeah. 

Ian Runkle: [00:59:24] And, uh, I mean, you know, that sort of thing of you gotta maintain a good calendar because I can’t remember those dates in my head.

Travis Bader: [00:59:34] Right. 

Ian Runkle: [00:59:35] It’s and I mean, just no lawyer can because you just get too many dates and times to, uh, to keep track of. But you have to be super good about that because if it’s something like, I’ll just put this in my calendar when I get back to the office. 

Travis Bader: [00:59:49] Oops.

Ian Runkle: [00:59:50] Nope. Maybe I won’t, you know, that’s got to go on the calendar right now. And so, you know, getting in the habit, for instance of I’m leaving the courthouse, I will sit in my car and put a, you know, an entry in the calendar for each of my upcoming appearances. And then, you know, maybe tidy them up back at the office. But if nothing else, I’ve got that note, you know, so you don’t miss anything.

[01:00:15] So all of that is really, um, and I think you have to be more careful about your moods than many people. I think you have to be more careful about, uh, you know, how you eat, how you, uh, you know, where your head’s at because if you let yourself get into a funk, all of that gets worse and your coping strategies fall to bits.

[01:00:39] And if you, you know, I find personally that diet is important, not withstanding the fact that I drink tremendous amounts of Coca-Cola. Um, caffeine is I guess, my replacement for, uh, not on any ritilan or alike.

Travis Bader: [01:00:53] Right. 

Ian Runkle: [01:00:53] But, um, but if I eat like, you know, heavy, greasy, fast food, I could feel myself having more struggles then, if I’m, you know, sometimes you don’t want to eat the salad, but the salad is better for my cognition. 

Travis Bader: [01:01:10] That’s interesting. I never even, I never put a correlation between what I ate and how I was feeling until I don’t know, a couple years ago. I mean, I would eat what I want to eat, obviously try and stay in shape and be healthy and all the rest, but the actual physical and mental feeling off of what I eat and how I feel, for whatever reason, my head’s just in different places and I never put two and two together. 

[01:01:36] I’m like, I was raised on sugar. My grandfather had a, he had a bakery and it was, I don’t know, maybe 10, seven, 10 years ago when I finally put that relationship between wow, that about a sugar that I’m used to having is actually making me feel like garbage.

Ian Runkle: [01:01:54] Well, and i, uh, I mean, one of the things I found is, um, you know, sushi, I do fantastic on, although it’s expensive and not nearly as good here in Alberta as it was in, uh, in Vancouver where I grew up. 

Travis Bader: [01:02:09] Right. 

Ian Runkle: [01:02:09] But, uh, you know, I’ve had things where, um, you know I have gone to the Supreme court once and I made sure that the meal I had the night before, uh, was something that I knew was going to help me and not hurt me. 

Travis Bader: [01:02:24] Interesting.  

Ian Runkle: [01:02:25] You know, cause it was just like, this is super important. I gotta make sure that I’m squared away and you know, that uh, my brain is going to be in the right place. 

Travis Bader: [01:02:35] Yeah, that makes sense. So, speaking of ADHD, if I’m going to quickly change topics three back to firearms here, uh. If, uh, so storage of non-restricted firearms. Out hunting, common, common thing we’ve heard and, in the past, you’re sitting around the campfire and it’s getting dark out and everyone’s concerned about the grizzly bears and having a firearm readily available for predator control.

[01:03:01] And under the storage regulations, they say, hey, it’s got to be loaded, it’s got to have a secure locking device or rendered an operable by removing the bolt or bolt carrier or in a container. But it’s got a couple of instances. It can’t be readily accessible to its ammunition. But it has a couple of provisions and it says it doesn’t to really apply the, um, and the whole having a little lock on it or having an inoperable doesn’t apply if you’re gonna need it for predator control relatively soon. I’m paraphrasing here. 

Ian Runkle: [01:03:35] Yeah. 

Travis Bader: [01:03:36] And it also says something along the lines of you don’t have to have a lock on it and it doesn’t necessarily have to be, um, it can have ammunition readily accessible to it uh, if you’re in a remote wilderness area and you’re going to be using it for something that’s not incompatible with hunting.

Ian Runkle: [01:03:57] Yeah. 

Travis Bader: [01:03:57] Paraphrasing. 

Ian Runkle: [01:03:58] The area itself has to be not subject to any reasonably ascertainable use incompatible with hunting. 

Travis Bader: [01:04:05] Right. 

Ian Runkle: [01:04:06] So, you know, there’s people skiing on that hill, then you can’t do that. 

Travis Bader: [01:04:12] Right. Right. So, okay. Uh, uh, hunting sort of thing, but of course you can’t hunt at night, but that’s when everyone’s getting concerned about Bruno the bear coming by.

Ian Runkle: [01:04:23] Yeah.

Travis Bader: [01:04:24] I guess a couple of questions that tend to come up as everyone’s playing armchair lawyer around the campfire is like what’s a, uh, a remote wilderness area, number one. And I mean, that’s going to be probably debatable, obviously not the ski hill. And what’s hunting, like obviously the actual act of tracking an animal, or maybe setting up and waiting for an animal.

[01:04:45] And we can call that hunting. Is driving up hunting, is getting ready for bed but we’re on a hunting trip and we don’t want this bear ripping open the tent? I mean, I I’ve got a blog post of one that just tore apart the side-by-side and was trying to get into, uh, uh, to the trailer. I would sure feel safer having a firearm that’s loaded and ready to go. Maybe not one in the chamber. If I knew that was a, um, uh, a legal thing to do. 

Ian Runkle: [01:05:13] Well uh, so the exceptions, there are, there’s two different exceptions. So one is if you needed for predator control. 

Travis Bader: [01:05:20] Right.

Ian Runkle: [01:05:20] Um, you are accepted from the, uh, the requirement to have a secure locking device, but not from the requirement that it not be readily accessible to ammunition, which to my mind seems to be a little bizarre because you’re saying you need to control predators or other animals.

[01:05:38] And so you don’t have to have it locked, but you also can’t have the ammunition near it. Which, you know, if you’re talking about Bruno the bear is going to be a pretty difficult situation because. 

Travis Bader: [01:05:50] Right.

Ian Runkle: [01:05:51] That’s kind of a hurried situation. Um, now there might also be the potential that it might be in use for defense against bears, but that’s, again, going to be kind of fact specific and a bit of a question. Um, there’s also situations about remote wilderness areas that are not subject to any visible or otherwise uh, reasonably ascertainable use incompatible with hunting. 

[01:06:13] What is a remote wilderness area? Well, whatever the court deems to be a remote wilderness area, and that’s going to be a real, uh, that’s going to be a fact specific question, you know. Um, and you know, it’s not always clear what’s remote wilderness area and yeah, it’s in all of these cases, it can’t be loaded. Which again, if you know, you’re talking about your tent and the bearer, you know, comes ripping in. 

[01:06:46] You’re probably not going to be able to legally store it in a fashion where it’s useful in that fashion. But there might be an argument that it’s being used for bear defense in those circumstances, you know. So all of this gets tricky and really down to facts. But, uh, so I can’t really give you an example, you know, give you like here’s the hard and fast rules because all of these things are based on some things with some flexibility.

Travis Bader: [01:07:13] Obviously with the, the background that you have on the firearms side and being keenly interested in firearms law based on how vague and poorly written some areas are and that’s kind of a fun game to unpack. Are you familiar with other areas of law that are equally obtuse? 

Ian Runkle: [01:07:35] I mean, there’s some really weird things that come up with impaired law right now. 

Travis Bader: [01:07:39] Okay. 

Ian Runkle: [01:07:41] Like one of the things is that it is prima facie illegal to drive home and then get drunk. 

Travis Bader: [01:07:48] What? 

Ian Runkle: [01:07:51] So. 

Travis Bader: [01:07:52] To drive home and. Okay.

Ian Runkle: [01:07:53] So let’s say you are at work. 

Travis Bader: [01:07:55] Oh, sorry, it’s legal. It’s not illegal? 

Ian Runkle: [01:07:57] No. Illegal.

Travis Bader: [01:07:59] Illegal. Okay. 

Ian Runkle: [01:08:00] Prima facie illegal to drive home and then get drunk. 

Travis Bader: [01:08:03] Okay. 

Ian Runkle: [01:08:03] So let’s say you have a really tough day at work, or let’s say, you know, you get fired. You’re having a real rough day. You drive home and as soon as you get in the door, you, you know, put your hat up, you take your jacket off you, uh, you know, you go in and you just start pouring yourself shots of vodka. And an hour after you get home, the police knock on your door and you go out to talk to them because you’re not making good decisions because you’ve been hitting the vodka.

[01:08:31] And the police asked you, when did you get home? And you tell them, cause again, not making good decisions. And the cops say, okay, you’re under arrest because you were intoxicated within two hours of operating a motor vehicle. 

Travis Bader: [01:08:43] Is this like the Monty Robinson workaround that that officer who was in an accident killed a person and.

Ian Runkle: [01:08:50] Pretty much yup. Um, now, I mean, they charged, if I recall correctly, they charged that person with a, uh, an obstruction of justice. But, uh, basically what happened is that they, uh, they went through and generated a wishlist of all the ways people win impaired trials. And so this law was basically a wishlist of how to prevent people from getting acquainted on impaired charges.

[01:09:19] And so, you know, there’s a defence that’s in that law where you can establish that you, you know, that you got drunk afterwards, that you had no reason to believe that they were going to ask for a sample and that your readings are consistent with all of, with having been sober at the time. That’s going to be a very expensive defence because the burden is on you. And you’re going to have to, you know, hire amongst other things, a medical expert. 

Travis Bader: [01:09:47] Right. 

Ian Runkle: [01:09:48] You know, I will tell you that a medical expert is super expensive. Like not even a little bit cheap, they are way expensive and yeah. 

Travis Bader: [01:10:01] Well, is there anything that we should be talking about before we kind of look at wrap it up?

Ian Runkle: [01:10:07] I mean, just things are going to be really exciting in the next little bit, if you’re a gun owner, because the Liberal party has clearly decided that their path to a path to electoral victory is to throw us under the bus. 

Travis Bader: [01:10:20] Right. 

Ian Runkle: [01:10:21] And, you know, it’s, it’s going to be rough. They want to ban a whole lot of things. And partially that’s, I think because they’ve, you know, every time they have a, a poll dip, that’s what we’re seeing. So, um, I mean, criminal law is going to continue to be fascinating from my perspective. But for a lot of the people, you know, out there, it’s, there’s going to be a lot of people just straight up hurt by this.

Travis Bader: [01:10:51] Right. 

Ian Runkle: [01:10:52] And I, uh, uh, I feel for people it’s, you know, I’ve had people who are just absolutely, you know, in, in tears, hmm, as to what’s happening and what’s going to happen with their livelihood. Um, there was a story of a guy who, uh, uh, just started up an airsoft business, set to open sometime this week. 

Travis Bader: [01:11:20] Oh man.

Ian Runkle: [01:11:21] Can you imagine, you’re just set to, like, you’ve just sunk your life savings into an airsoft business, and then this just, uh, gets, uh, you know, this just gets dropped on you, like a. 

Travis Bader: [01:11:35] Devastating. 

Ian Runkle: [01:11:37] Yeah. You know, let’s say your business is, you’ve got an airsoft selling business. Who’s going to buy that right now. If you’re trying to, uh, you know, trying to sell that so. 

Travis Bader: [01:11:47] No one’s going to buy it. At least not for the price that they should. 

Ian Runkle: [01:11:50] Oh, I mean, you know, I would be reluctant to buy one of those for a dollar right now, let alone for, uh, so yeah, it’s, uh. 

Travis Bader: [01:12:00] Rough time. 

Ian Runkle: [01:12:01] Yeah, I feel for these people, like there are people legitimately losing, looking at losing, um, their livelihood, looking at losing their profession, looking at losing everything. Like literally everything in some cases and, you know, I, I wish I could do more. That’s, that’s all of it is. I just wish I had a better way to, you know, ride in and solve the problems. But all I can do is, uh, sort of trying to poke holes where I can so. 

Travis Bader: [01:12:37] Well for the listers again, that’s Runkle of the Bailey, google it, you’ll see, you’ll see Ian there over in his Horace Rumpole Homburg hat, the nice ode to the old, old Bailey barrister. And, uh, there’ll be links in the bio on that, please check it out. 

[01:12:58] Ian, thank you very much for coming on the podcast and sharing your knowledge. I really enjoyed this conversation.

Ian Runkle: [01:13:05] Yeah, thank you for having me, it’s been a blast.

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