Downtown Vancouver
episode 52 | Jun 15, 2021
Law Enforcement/Military
Personal Growth

Ep. 52: Urban Awareness - After the Incident

This is part 3 of the popular Urban Awareness series where Travis Bader speaks with retired 35 year veteran of the Vancouver Police Department about dealing with situations of violence. In this episode, we explore the realities of what to expect after the incident. Avoiding and surviving the incident is important and dealing with with aftermath can mean the difference between winning the battle and winning the war.
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Travis Bader: [00:00:00] I’m Travis Bader and this is The Silvercore Podcast. Join me as I discuss matters related to hunting, fishing, and outdoor pursuits with the people in businesses that comprise the community. If you’re a new to Silvercore, be sure to check out our website, where you can learn more about courses, services, and products that we offer as well as how you can join The Silvercore Club, which includes 10 million in north America wide liability insurance to ensure you are properly covered during your outdoor adventures.

[00:00:43] We are episode three of the urban awareness series where our discussions will revolve around what to expect after the incident. But first Paul, now you recalled something that you wanted to clear up from episode two. 

Paul Ballard: [00:00:56] Um, in the last podcast. I couldn’t remember the name of Brian Willis. And he is the president of the, uh, of the Winning Mind Training and company, er training. Uh, and that WIN principle, what’s important now, is the most important question in life. And his training, uh, tells you how to develop that concept and not to horn in any more on him and issues with copyright, but I just want to promote Brian Willis at this point. And, uh, and his, what is important now, principles for both everyday living for normal people and police training. Excellent. 

[00:01:38] Met him about out 30 something years ago in Ottawa, we were at the Canadian Police College together, and I was immediately struck with the guy. Uh, enjoyed, uh, the time I spent with him stayed in touch for a little bit lost track and sure enough, he turns up, uh, delivering his WIN program at the, um, I guess it was the, yeah, it was the, uh, city Vancouver Tactical Training Centre and lo and behold, there’s Brian and I look at them and one of the things that became important to him was lose weight, and boy did he ever, he was hardly recognizable, but that’s that’s it.

Travis Bader: [00:02:14] Awesome. WIN, I like it. What’s important now. 

Paul Ballard: [00:02:17] Well, after you’ve won, what happens? 

Travis Bader: [00:02:20] So we’re in the after now, we had the, before the, during and after, now after, Paul, have you ever found yourself in a situation where you have had a argument, or disagreement, something’s happened and you spend a lot of time afterwards thinking about, oh, I should’ve done this, or I should’ve said that. I think everyone’s had that. And there’s a very easy way to help minimize the effects of that. And that’s by properly preparing before and understanding what this whole after section looks like. 

Paul Ballard: [00:02:53] Yeah. The 20-20 hindsight, right? 

Travis Bader: [00:02:55] Tell me about it. Everyone’s got that in crystal clear vision. 

Paul Ballard: [00:02:59] And, and, you know, that happens with everything. You know, you buy a car, uh, you’ve got20-20 hindsight, buyer’s remorse, all those things, you know, that. And there’s stress in buying a car, I don’t care who you are. There’s you know, that first meeting with another person who you have an affection for, and you go, oh, as you’re driving away from the disaster of that meeting and re-living the moment.

[00:03:27] But we’re talking about some serious stuff here and some of the things that can affect you afterwards. And I know we alluded to, um, Joseph Wambaugh and the onion field, and you know, what happened to those officers after the moment, but you really got to in the planning stage for the three phases of, you know, a critical incident, this now we actually need to plan for post critical incident. Now the term PTSD post traumatic stress disorder is, is used a lot. And it’s a very, very real thing. 

Travis Bader: [00:04:08] It’s evolving. 

Paul Ballard: [00:04:09] It, it does. And, and our treatment of it and our acceptance of it, and our recognition of who can be involved in an, in it’s not just a first responders thing as well. Um, it was interesting today listening to local radio station, top of the news, you know, they’re going through some of the highlights and in light of the recent, uh, number of these open air shootings, uh, targeted hits, they’re asking the people, how do they feel?

[00:04:39] What do they think? And, and they’re not only reaching out to people who haven’t experienced that the, the public in general, but I think they’re starting to talk to the people that are there and, and that can be, you know, a lot of stuff going on. Um, survivor’s guilt is part of post-traumatic stress. Um, and that is E nothing happened to me. I’m here and I feel bad because, was there more I could have done, Did I you know, put, you know what, that’s one, you should never feel bad about. 

[00:05:15] Survivor’s guilt, um, is, you know, a real thing. Uh, it can be treated of course, as any kind of, uh, disorder, as a result of something like this, you know, getting treated for it is probably one of the plans you should have if you’ve been through something like this and you think that you should just ride it out afterwards and not talk to a pro. 

Travis Bader: [00:05:40] Forget about it.

Paul Ballard: [00:05:40] Pardon my expression, but you’re a crazy. Like that, uh, if you’ve been somewhere and something of this high order occurs in front of you and you’re just gonna shake it off and tell your friends, not good. 

Travis Bader: [00:05:57] So after an incident, whether that was a physical altercation, whether there’s a weapon involved, whether, uh, maybe it was just a verbal altercation that somebody was in. 

Paul Ballard: [00:06:08] How bought a horrible car accident in front of you. 

Travis Bader: [00:06:11] Right. If I’m personally involved in that incident, one of the first things that I will tend to do is give a quick rapid body survey, make sure I don’t have things sticking out to me that shouldn’t be sticking out at me. Maybe when the adrenaline kicked in, I didn’t feel things as I normally would and make sure that there isn’t any immediate medical attention that I need in order to be able to continue surviving after the first incident. So that’s one of the things. I will then look to those around me and see, are they in the same situation. 

Paul Ballard: [00:06:45] Is everybody else okay. 

Travis Bader: [00:06:46] Right. Uh, and then there’s going to be the physiological effects of the adrenaline wearing off and the shakes and the. 

Paul Ballard: [00:06:55] Extreme fatigue. 

Travis Bader: [00:06:57] Huge. And knowing that that’s normal, knowing that this is a very natural response that the body has to critical incident stress. And when all of this stuff kinda, abates there, if the police are involved, be prepared to be questioned as if you were possibly the bad guy, the bad person. 

Paul Ballard: [00:07:20] Yeah. So we’ll just, lets just clarify. And we’ll talk, you know, post incident, this is it. This is where you did get involved in something. You were, you got, you got physical with somebody or, or they got physical with you. And, and there was, there was a conflict, there was a physical, uh, contact and everything went that way.

[00:07:40] Okay. So we’ll keep our focus on that maybe as, so in the immediate after at, excellent, check yourself out, have somebody else look, look through your hair, look through all these other things, make sure that there’s nothing leaking. And because what happened when, during, when you had that huge adrenaline dump that also can send all kinds of, you know, natural painkillers throughout your body to keep you in the fight.

[00:08:06] And now that may start to, uh, to start to show up, check the people around you. Absolutely. One step before that, are you a hundred percent safe at that moment before we start doing that? Like, we need that one in there now. Now we are safe. We’ve checked ourselves out, we’ve gone over. The hands start to shake, potentially.

[00:08:27] Um, and again, I it’s, it’s a lot, uh, based on how much you’ve trained beforehand, whether that’s going to happen. And I gotta be, you know, forthright with this, the, the person that got through it, got through it on a minimal amount of training without a whole lot of rehearsal, likely to feel those immediate effects a little bit more than the trained person and, you know, um, your cognitive effects, starting to come back at this point as well.

[00:08:57] Thinking of the bigger picture, I have seen people that are just they’re, it’s over, it’s done, everything’s safe, but they’re still not there. They’re, you know, running around in circles there they’re having problems processing what they just went through and the more trained person is now realizing, okay, what are the next steps involved?

[00:09:16] You know. So, uh, you know, I don’t know, without getting into too many specifics, but you know, the subject is down and out and there’s no fight left in it. The one plus one rule, is there anybody else, who’s checking to see that, who’s watching, who’s administering first aid? You know, all these sorts of things are important, um.

Travis Bader: [00:09:40] Make sure the police are called if needed or ambulance .

Paul Ballard: [00:09:44] Absolutely! Preservation of any evidence that may be potentially there. All these things, you know, are in that moment. But let’s just, again, going back to the handshaking, one of the things that people want to do is now make it look like they’re normal and the emotion of maybe some, like, maybe it’s appropriate if I’m I’m upset with myself and started saying things like, oh, I should have done something else. Maybe this, you know, when it turned out so bad. 

Travis Bader: [00:10:15] They start acting it up. 

Paul Ballard: [00:10:16] Yeah. Uh, and w a true feeling that comes from a lot of this stuff, if you did win, and you did it successfully, is a sense of overwhelming pride and satisfaction that gee whiz, I did that. And you know, what, if you’ve laid waste to somebody physically, whatever the case may be, people started thinking, well, you blood thirsty son of a gun, you know, daughter of a gun maybe. And, and how dare you feel good about what you did? Well, it’s not wrong. 

Travis Bader: [00:10:53] No, it’s natural. 

Paul Ballard: [00:10:54] And, and, and now we’re going to save this for just a little bit later in the aftermath, and who’s appropriate to tell this to, but don’t hide that from yourself. It’s not a wrong thing to feel in that immediate aftermath. It’s not, you know, pride in yourself, relief. You want to congratulate yourself. You, you know, you, you, you go, oh my God, I like, that was me that ended that. There’s nothing wrong with that. 

Travis Bader: [00:11:24] Mhmm. 

Paul Ballard: [00:11:25] Now turning around to the TV camera, that’s shown up and they shove a microphone in your face and wanting to, you know, fist pump and, and everything else in that circumstance, we’ll save it. 

Travis Bader: [00:11:38] Right. High five’s for everyone. 

Paul Ballard:  [00:11:40] Yeah. Let’s not do that at that moment. Whereas you’ve seen time and time again in a critical incident, law enforcement, the military, uh, they’ve, they’ve gone and just overcome a situation of extreme stress. And the next thing you know, they high five each other, and that gets captured on camera.

Travis Bader: [00:11:58] Right. 

Paul Ballard: [00:11:58] Well, you know what. There’s no context there because nobody who’s watching that on TV or in the taping afterwards has the emotions that those people have. And were they wrong emotions? No. Were they expressed incorrectly and was it captured on tape? Absolutely. And you know, and then these things are hard for the people, the non sheepdogs to appreciate.

[00:12:25] And, and, and you know what, the wolves are not just the people that are attacking you. The wolves are out there in society because they want to suppress the sheepdog. Sheepdog is always a threat to a wolf. Now the wolves may not be physically attacking, but the wolves have agendas, right. I’m getting a little bit political here, but that’s the way I really feel.

Travis Bader: [00:12:49] Mhmm. I don’t disagree with you. 

Paul Ballard: [00:12:50] And if you can belittle the sheepdog for doing what the sheepdog does, the sheep who has no grounding in the sheepdog’s purpose sees it. So anyways, getting back to in the immediate, don’t be embarrassed by that feeling of, of a sense of pride. 

Travis Bader: [00:13:07] That’s a good point. 

Paul Ballard: [00:13:08] Okay. Don’t be, you know, don’t be upset about that. So we’re in the immediate here, your physical self is taken care of. You’re feeling some different emotions. Okay. Uh, don’t be afraid of that feeling that that said I did the right thing and don’t feel there’s a huge obligation at that moment to start explaining what you just did. Law enforcement arrives, first aid arrives, whatever it’s that big of a thing they need to talk to you.

Travis Bader: [00:13:40] Interesting thing about law enforcement arriving, just a bit of a side note. Whoever calls law enforcement in first tends to wear a white hat. 

Paul Ballard: [00:13:50] So if you’re able to get on your cell phone and get it out there that, uh, you are the reportee uh, you are that entity that has called the police. Yeah, that’s a good plan. And that, that is, and then you also set a bit of a stage by, you know, relating a little bit, but what you got to be careful of is if you did cause physical harm to another individual, even though it was in complete defence of your own self, you don’t want to be too willing to try and explain everything in the moment, because what you’re not realizing is in that 24 hours following an extremely stressful event, you’re still suffering those effects, those good effects that you had of.

[00:14:41] Um, I suppose like we call it, uh, a wrinkle in the space time continuum, but really visual narrowing, auditory, exclusion, um, depth perception, all of these things are altered in the moment. Okay. Um, people, you know, say, oh man, I got the guy and the time it took for him to, you know, to do you really don’t have the grounding to start talking a lot about that. 

Travis Bader: [00:15:10] You’re kind of the worst possible witness to your own event. 

Paul Ballard: [00:15:13] Right.

Travis Bader: [00:15:13] Because you’ve got a very, very narrow perspective of what happened. Whereas somebody else looking at this might have a much better perspective. 

Paul Ballard: [00:15:23] And one of the things we see in today’s world is the reliability of eye witness accounts of what really happened. A really good investigator will rely much more on the, whatever they have for physical evidence. You know, so where the, you know, the blood splatter is, where the casing lands, all those things are way more, you know, absolute than what a person says. And I would just, honestly, from having been there myself, say look, I want to be completely cooperative with everybody right now, but my statement may be affected by the feelings that I have.

[00:16:03] And that’s, that’s the thing, be prepared to say that I’m not withholding anything, but without having the chance to talk to someone who’s not involved and the time for me to gather my thoughts. I will give you a full statement tomorrow, or later. And it’s very tough for, and haven’t been one for as long as I was, for cop to accept that.

Travis Bader: [00:16:30] Right. And say. 

Paul Ballard: [00:16:31] They’re not good. They’re not going to want to, they want the whole story. They want it now, they want to get the report written and, and get the investigation underway and all these other things. 

Travis Bader: [00:16:40] Well if you’ve got nothing to hide, why wouldn’t you talk? 

Paul Ballard: [00:16:42] That’s right. Yes, exactly. And that’s, you know, that is it. And you don’t have anything to hide, but. 

Travis Bader: [00:16:47] You don’t.  

Paul Ballard: [00:16:47] But in the interest and you got to, you know, explain and articulate this properly, in the interest of accuracy, I’m not prepared. Now, if the situation is still ongoing, somebody has fled the scene. That’s still important to the investigation, by all means, you gotta give what sketchy details as possible, but you need to preface everything that you’re saying.

[00:17:11] It’s like, you know, I’m telling you this, now this is the best I understand but the, my absolute statement that I’m going to live and die for or buy is not coming right now. This isn’t it, I’m, I’m too close to the incident for you to, you know, uh, listen all this stuff and, and it is, it’s very, very tough to accept on the part of an investigator, but you know what?

[00:17:32] This is you. As I was sitting in the major crime office, I had been given my rights that I didn’t have to say anything, you know, just like on TV and I’m there and I said, yeah, that’s fine, I’ve called my lawyer. Um, there is a post-incident team that will come and talk to you, they’re on their way to come and talk to me.

[00:17:54] But the, the sergeant comes in and he says to me, he says, you know, uh, I know you, you said you don’t want to say anything until you speak to your lawyer, but the forensic guys at the scene, they can’t find the casing from your pistol. Uh, is there any chance you picked it up? We just need that and you know, and I said, no, it’s in the mop bucket in the hallway next to where I was standing.

[00:18:19] Cause now going back to the moment and, and, and all the things that were going on when I fired that shot in my peripheral vision, I saw the case arc up out of the ejection port of the pistol and somewhere deep in the back of my head, I still heard the plunk sizz, and actually a sizzle plunk of that case going into a mop bucket, it was in the hallway of, of where the shooting had occurred. And I could see the look on the sergeants face like, oh, and he’s on the cell phone. 

Travis Bader: [00:18:51] Okay rainman. 

Paul Ballard: [00:18:51] He’s on the cell phone to the forensic guy. That’s there who’s was a guy. I know actually a hunting partner. And, uh, he goes, what? You can hear him saying this. So anyways, got it. And they just said, got it, and that’s where it was. But weird. I took that in, in that moment. And you know, so, but the point being is I wasn’t saying anything, I talked to my lawyer, I gave the statement to my lawyer, um, that I recalled, he was fine with that. We got back together later the next morning, uh, to review the statement, which he had recorded and then prepared for my signature, which we were going to offer up and everything was fine.

[00:19:38] There was no, you know, there was no big if, ands or anything, but we wanted to get distances and everything correct. And, um, that next day I went about some business, which is another interesting thigh side to things, gave my statement. And then I get, you know, in the police world, what happens now is they say, you know, always sounds suspicious, the officer has been put on paid leave. But they just basically say, Hey, you know. 

Travis Bader: [00:20:08] Take some time. 

Paul Ballard: [00:20:09] Take some time. And they want you to take some time. In that time thing, the only thing I wanted to do was go back to the scene. I really wanted to see it again. There was no opportunity to do that. I, you know, took my couple of weeks, whatever it was at the time, uh, went about my regular life. I’ll tell you, uh, in that period of time, one of the things that bothered me more than anything, um, you know, and, and things will irritate you is everybody wants to hear the story over and over and over again. 

Travis Bader: [00:20:42] Right. 

Paul Ballard: [00:20:43] And that’s totally normal. 

Travis Bader: [00:20:47] It’s normal for people to want, cause they want to learn. 

Paul Ballard: [00:20:49] They want to hear. 

Travis Bader: [00:20:50] Right. 

Paul Ballard: [00:20:50] And there’s nothing wrong with talking about it. But there’s certain people that you probably want to avoid talking to it about it. It’s been, I sought out a couple other people that have been there and those were the ones I want to talk about. And that’s nothing wrong with that. So in that post situation, if, if you can find somebody to relate to, and in many cases, you know, the, the post critical incident team that, uh, those are people that have been there and they have, um, empathy.

Travis Bader: [00:21:22] Right. And I think you bring up a good point about talking about it afterwards. It’s an important thing to do, but there’s a right way and a wrong way, to talk about it because, as research looks at how our brains work or prefrontal cortex which has got our decision-making and our short-term memory and our hippocampus we’ll take our long-term memory, our amygdala will hold our emotions.

[00:21:47] And as we start processing certain types of events and our prefrontal cortex, it’ll start downloading hard copies into your hippocampus and your amygdala. And even though you aren’t actually in a certain situation at that certain time, you will recount those emotions as if you were, and if you continually download the information into those, into those storage banks. 

Paul Ballard: [00:22:13] It’s like a flushing almost. 

Travis Bader: [00:22:14] In the improper way. It’s like, and I, and I liken it to going down a dirt road and you wore some tracks in there. The more you drive the same road, the deeper those tracks get, and the harder it is to get out, which is a big part about where PTSD, critical incident stress and PTSD, um, theory and therapy is being worked on. How do we get the brain out of that rut and those tracks in order to be able to view the same from a perspective as it ought to be. So talking important, I told. 

Paul Ballard: [00:22:48] Yes. 

Travis Bader: [00:22:48] Talking to the police at the time of the event. You’re the worst possible witness. 

Paul Ballard: [00:22:52] Nope. Yeah, you’re not a good witness at that time. Talking it out with somebody, the idea is also about culpability. You know, if there’s any, um, somebody wants to make some suggested that you did something wrong. Do you remember anybody you talk to, uh, can also be called later, uh, as, as a, you know, as a witness to you. So, you know, the best person to talk to about this is somebody who cannot testify against you, which is your psychologist or a psychiatrist or someone like that. And getting in and before that person to do your initial download, oh, the lawyer also is very good, lawyers.

Travis Bader: [00:23:31] Sure. 

Paul Ballard: [00:23:32] You know, and they can listen. They may have no grounding in it, but they can certainly, uh, listen to you. And then the lawyer is not gonna look at you say, geez, you should leave that part out of your statement. Cause they don’t do that. 

Travis Bader: [00:23:42] No. 

Paul Ballard: [00:23:42] You know, that’s not what they do. I mean, if you’ve really done some significant harm to somebody, but you got out of it that way, a lawyer is definitely there. If the whole situation we’re talking about is maybe you’ve defended yourself against a sexual attack or a robbery. Okay. Um, talk, one of the things you see the police is I only get my statement now, but I sure want to talk to somebody and I want to talk to the right people. In today’s world, most of the time that police might be the very best resource you have for directing you to do that.

[00:24:18] Despite everything that people want to say, today’s police officer is trained to understand the effects of post traumatic stress. And they are told, they are told that victims are going to feel that. And almost every agency has some form of victim services, uh, that will be available to you. And, and don’t, don’t be that person that’s, ohh, I don’t want to talk to anybody about this, you know, I’m going to be okay. 

[00:24:44] I’m going to run home until my wife and tell, you know, my friends and I’m going to, you know, have a couple of beers. Cause it was exciting too. That’s that’s another tendency that you have, you know, like, wow, I’m, I’m alive and I’m okay and. 

Travis Bader: [00:24:57] You’re happy. 

Paul Ballard: [00:24:57] Well, you know, there’s probably a much more male thing to do, you know, but to go out and get together with your buds and tell them about it. Um, some people can be effected at a deeply, deeply emotional level by this. You got to deal with that. And the sooner it happens. And done with a professional who can carry you forward, that’s a good thing. 

Travis Bader: [00:25:22] And it’s going to affect everyone differently. 

Paul Ballard: [00:25:24] Yeah.  

Travis Bader: [00:25:24] I mean, people are gonna have different, uh, cognitive resiliencies. Uh, they’re going to be in different situations. I remember talking about a, um, uh, uh, there was a study once about these vets from world war one fighting in world war two in some horrific instances where they figured that the younger, stronger soldiers would be out surviving the older ones and they found the inverse was true because the older ones had developed these cognitive resiliencies and they look at, and they say, you know, my, my second divorce was worse than this, right? Like, whereas a young guys in there, this is a worst thing that’s ever happened to them.

Paul Ballard: [00:26:02] And you know, again, going back to the policing and I don’t mean to bore people by talking about, but it’s what I know, what I’ve been around in a lot of cases. Um, some of the, the crazier stuff that I’ve been involved in while I was on duty, I would have rather been surrounded by, you know, a bunch of gray haired, fat guys, you know, that, uh, could keep their wits about them than the strongest fittest, you know. 

Travis Bader: [00:26:27] Right. 

Paul Ballard: [00:26:28] That are there. And, and I hate to say that and no disrespect to people who maintain a high level of physical fitness and everything else, but grey hair and some experience can sometimes be a little bit better, even though you don’t think they have the physical, uh, abilities, but. A couple other things like, you know, immediately after, if the thing that happened is big enough and almost everything is big enough today, it’s going to hit the media. And then you’re going to have a whole bunch of people armchair quarterback, what you did.

Travis Bader: [00:27:00] Right. 

Paul Ballard: [00:27:03] Doing podcast, funny enough, people armchair quarterback what you say. 

Travis Bader: [00:27:08] Yeah, they do. 

Paul Ballard: [00:27:09] And you know, it’s as a person who tries to pride himself in the ability to communicate things, sometimes you’re not communicating, you know, your point correctly, or the other person wants to take something tangentially away.

Travis Bader: [00:27:20] Sure. 

Paul Ballard: [00:27:21] And then you, you, you know, your dander gets up when you go, does this person just not get it? Did I not communicate everything correctly? And they’re never, we’re never gonna make everybody happy, but yeah, if you’ve been in it and all of a sudden, and this happened, listening on the radio the next day to a chief of police, it wasn’t really a chief of police because that organization never had them, is being interviewed on the local radio station.

[00:27:46] And he’s telling everybody about, you know, all the things that the officer involved in the shooting yesterday would be feeling and everything else, and I’m going, you know, you weren’t there. 

Travis Bader: [00:27:59] Right. 

Paul Ballard: [00:28:00] You weren’t there. And I had the opportunity to track that guy down. After I had done my, you know period of time off, he happened to be making a presentation on that very subject. And I made a point of going and I went up to him afterwards and I says, you know, you’ve been talking a lot about this stuff. You talked about me, you never met me, you never interviewed me, you weren’t at the scene. And you made a whole bunch of things into factual points. 

Travis Bader: [00:28:27] Yes. 

Paul Ballard: [00:28:27] That weren’t factual. 

Travis Bader: [00:28:30] And I think that is human nature.

Paul Ballard: [00:28:32] Oh! You want to fill in the blanks, right. 

Travis Bader: [00:28:35] Totally. But it’s so difficult for the person who is in it for the survivor of the event. 

Paul Ballard: [00:28:42] Who knows exactly what went on. 

Travis Bader: [00:28:44] Right. And it comes down to. And when we talk about being a witness to our own event, and maybe we’re not the best and me being a third-party witness watching would be better, but maybe not the most reliable as well, even video cameras are being shown to be an unreliable witness in certain circumstances. I remember I was at a conference and there was some guys that are doing some high-level forensics work with video and looking at about the frame rate and lost frames and the speed that it goes at and end. It can actually tell a different story than what really happens. 

[00:29:18] So I guess what I’m trying to get at with all of this is, everybody’s different. Everyone’s going to have different resiliencies. Everyone’s going to find themselves in a situation maybe they leave and it means nothing to them. Or maybe it’s a worst thing in the world to them, whatever it is, this critical incident stress that they’re feeling is a natural physiological response to an unnatural event. 

[00:29:44] And that’s it. And they should just simply accept that for it, what it is, how I’m feeling right now, whether it’s the guilt, whether it’s the anger, whether it’s a depression or whatever it might be. Hey, this is actually pretty natural in the same way is if I got a hammer to my knee cap and that hurts, is a natural response. And everyone’s going to be a little different in how that reacts. 

Paul Ballard: [00:30:08] Correct. 

Travis Bader: [00:30:09] And I got a funny story on that one. 

Paul Ballard: [00:30:11] But if you get that hammer to the kneecap, do you just go home and put some ice on it or do you go get x-rays and get a doctor to look at it and tell you to put it back together? 

Travis Bader: [00:30:20] Right. 

Paul Ballard: [00:30:20] And this is the thing your emotions may not be good enough just to put a little bit of ice on it. And the underlying thing of a very high level stress incident to you is it’s, it’s gotta be dealt with. It’s got, it and, and. 

Travis Bader: [00:30:37] And the sooner the better. 

Paul Ballard: [00:30:38] Correct. And so, and you’re, you’re, you’re going to go forward and you’re going to listen to that person, the right person as well, pick and choose. Okay. It’s it’s like, um, you know, do some reviews on, on who the person is, you know, you, you don’t want to go to, you know, uh, uh, a particular field of study psychologist that doesn’t deal with post critical incident stress. I mean, you know, the Randy Mackoffs, the Georgia Nemetz, those type of people. 

Travis Bader: [00:31:05] Right. 

Paul Ballard: [00:31:06] They know. 

Travis Bader: [00:31:06] Right. 

Paul Ballard: [00:31:07] They are the ones that you’ll. 

Travis Bader: [00:31:08] And both of them happened to work with police. 

Paul Ballard: [00:31:11] Yeah. Police. And that’s where, you know, we gotta be upfront about this. The people in the military, people in the police, um, all the first responders are much more likely to have experienced this stuff. And, and, and, and, and that’s the thing. So, you know, reach out to these people, um. 

Travis Bader: [00:31:28] The one point on that though, if, if I can quickly. 

Paul Ballard: [00:31:32] One of many. 

Travis Bader: [00:31:33] The one of many. If I can quickly interject is, quite often, I find that the, an, a person who finds themselves in a situation like this will look and say, well, I’m not a, I’m not a police officer. I don’t see the atrocities that they see, I’m not a soldier, I haven’t seen the atrocities that they’ve seen. Regardless of your background, whatever the effects you’re feeling could be the exact same as what somebody has seen an atrocity to something, the effects that are having on your mind and your body. And there is there’s one story that I read talking about PTSD uh, I don’t know if we talked about this one before Paul, the, uh, the chocolate bar eater. Have you heard this one? 

[00:32:14] Paul Ballard: [00:32:14] Nope. 

Travis Bader: [00:32:14] Okay. So this guy goes he’s in the states. He goes into a corner store and he gets himself a chocolate bar, gets halfway through the chocolate bar before he realizes it’s full of maggots. Okay. Goes to the shopkeeper, says chocolate bar’s got maggots in it, I’m pretty revolted. Shop keeps us, sorry, here’s a refund, get yourself another chocolate bar, whatever, have a good day. The guys good, he goes home. But then he starts having nightmares and dreams about maggots being in his food. And then he says he doesn’t want to go to church anymore.

[00:32:43] Cause he figures everyone’s going to be talking about him and laughing at him. He’s humiliated as the maggot eater. Right. And then he’s having these recurring thoughts. He’s having avoidance of things that he usually likes. He’s having depression, all off of eating something that some people in the world would readily eat anyways. Right. 

[00:33:02] Just worms, larva, maggots, whatever it might be. You or I might look at this and say, that’s nothing, but how that affected this person exhibited all the signs of PTSD. So if somebody listening to this finds themselves in a situation, then they say, well, I don’t, I’m embarrassed to go see a doctor, to talk about somebody because I’m having these thoughts or it’s affecting me in these ways.

[00:33:26] I’m feeling grief, fear, guilt, intense anger, irritability, chronic anxiety, apprehension, or, or depression. And yes, I’m reading this off of a list right now, but these are all sort of the emotional things that that can be happening. It doesn’t matter. It, no, one’s going to think less of you. You’ve got to get that addressed.

Paul Ballard: [00:33:48] Absolutely. Now, and you know, as you’re saying that there’s real symptoms and if you’re not trained to recognize these real symptoms, they’re gonna, it’s, it’s gonna, it’s gonna go. Um, one of the things that was really noted with people who weren’t getting treatment after, you know, and in the police world and in today’s police world, man is as soon as something sketchy has occurred while you’re working, the supervisors are there, the managers are on top of the supervisors to make sure that everybody gets it addressed. 

[00:34:26] Guys used to, you know, back in the old days. And I mean, the old days were when I first started in the late seventies, you know, something happened, it was straight to the, you know, the liquid, um, you know, self-medicate, and, and let’s sit around those, you know, little tables and we’ll talk this out, lots of laughs and everything else.

Travis Bader: [00:34:44] Right. 

Paul Ballard: [00:34:45] And you know what, it was very reassuring at the time everybody had a, a good go with it and so on. And what happened, uh, with that kind of treatment for that kind of an incident. It really had no long lasting effect in the moment it felt good to have a couple of drinks, uh, numb yourself a little bit and, and go home, sleep it off, or do whatever you were going to do.

[00:35:06] But the cumulative effect, if, if you don’t get things treated and this is where, when you, you, you hear about people like, oh, you know, they saw something horrible happen and you know, they didn’t really feel that bad about it. And then they something else, you know, and you know, the old happen in threes, I really believe in that things, you know.

[00:35:25] So when people say, well, I’ve seen something like this, it’s never going to happen again. Oh, boom. It happens, you know? And then, yeah. And then the third time after it’s over, they completely breakdown. 

Travis Bader: [00:35:35] Mm. 

Paul Ballard: [00:35:37] And maybe the third time wasn’t that big, but there was something in their psyche that triggered all this other stuff that they were holding back and I’m no psychologist or anything else, but, but we see it again and again in untreated people, right. That’s the important part being, you know, unarmed for the next one. And the only way you’re going to get armed and prepared for the next one is to get that professional help. 

Travis Bader: [00:36:00] Right. 

Paul Ballard: [00:36:01] So we got to tell it and, and nobody should be ashamed. And a traumatic event could be seeing a car accident. A traumatic event could be seeing somebody fall off a mountain side while you’re rock climbing, you know, watch somebody fall and get hurt, right. A traumatic event to some people could be seeing literally a body being taken out of a, you know, a drowning victim or something like that. 

Travis Bader: [00:36:29] Sure. 

Paul Ballard: [00:36:29] That, you know, you don’t need to see that. And that’s one of the things, again, societally, we’ll see, you know, whole people going, oh my God, look at that. There’s a yellow blanket over that person, let’s see if we can get a little closer. No, you don’t need to see that. Leave it. Don’t subject yourself to it anymore then you’ve put something in there. You don’t need to wonder about it or anything else, because it will actually help you continue on. You don’t need to get close. You don’t need to see blood or anything like that.

[00:36:58] It’s, it’s shocking how people will come up and want to take pictures of blood and everything else. You don’t need that because you were actually, and especially if you drag a kid up to see it or anything else. 

Travis Bader: [00:37:08] Right. 

Paul Ballard: [00:37:08] You don’t know what that does to kids. So, uh, be um. 

Travis Bader: [00:37:12] That’s a good point. You know, you’re not only responsible in the after-effect for yourself, the rapid body survey. You’re. 

Paul Ballard: [00:37:18] Yeah. 

Travis Bader: [00:37:19] And your emotional wellbeing and physical well-being, you’re responsible for your loved ones and those that you care for and make sure that maybe you’re not the right person for them to be talking with. 

Paul Ballard: [00:37:32] Right. 

Travis Bader: [00:37:32] And maybe, it’s just engrained. 

Paul Ballard: [00:37:34] Like, it’s like, you don’t know how your kid took it, what they saw and everything else like that. And that has happened, you know, a bit of my own life and everything else. You don’t realize how, you know, emotionally sensitive your kid might be or how much damage you can do to your kid by saying, oh, just toughen up and, you know, get on with it right. 

Travis Bader: [00:37:53] They don’t even have to be at the incident. But they’re responding to you after the incident and how you’re dealing with it. That’s a good point. 

Paul Ballard: [00:38:01] Um, a couple other things too, and, and, in the, um, old days when they first started, you know, in the very experimental days of looking towards post-traumatic stress and the syndrome or the disease or disorder that would follow that, they would tell you, get, get ready for this. And I did kind of mention this, I think.

Travis Bader: [00:38:26] You did yes. 

Paul Ballard: [00:38:27] But, but truthfully, don’t listen to that, you know, because the self-fulfilling, um. 

Travis Bader: [00:38:35] Prophecies. 

Paul Ballard: [00:38:36] Suggestions or prophecies, because you’re, you know, again, you’re, you’re, you’re not fragile, but you’re open to suggestion and. 

Travis Bader: [00:38:44] Yep. 

Paul Ballard: [00:38:44] In these things and you think, oh my God, I’ve just seen this horrible thing what’s happening next.

Travis Bader: [00:38:50] And here’s how I should respond next. 

Paul Ballard: [00:38:52] And you will, and you don’t want to do that. 

Travis Bader: [00:38:54] Right. 

Paul Ballard: [00:38:54] So, you know, watch that. Again, if, if you shed a tear. And you can’t sleep about something you’re affected by it. And if you shed a tear, when you just think about something after it’s happened a day or two, and you can’t sleep a couple of days afterwards. 

Travis Bader: [00:39:14] You’re affected.

Paul Ballard: [00:39:15] Oh yeah. You know, those are the things that, you know, you, you’ve got to reach out and it’s free in our system and it’s there, but going back to it, don’t think because you’re not an official that you can’t be affected by this stuff and to go on. So I think we’re good in talking in the immediate, you know, the self-assessment, we’re talking in the kind of short term of getting the treatment.

[00:39:40] So the long-term, if it was something was being initiated by a criminal act, you need to expect that there’s going likely to be the requirement for you to recall everything and maybe to give evidence in court, um, have your statement that was provided at the time be reviewed and, and, and, and that stuff. And that this becomes another time where you need to arm yourself for, for a secondary attack. 

[00:40:15] Because remember, uh, there are lots and lots of wolves out there and, and another form of wolf appears to be the person who would defend them in court. And you know what the defence lawyer is just doing their job. They have no, nothing personal against you or anything else, but suddenly you’re, you’re put up there. Uh, you’re, you’re promising to tell everything the truth and this person’s job is to make you second guess every single thing that you know that happened.

[00:40:51] So in preparation for that court case, talk to the prosecutor who will be able to give you, you know, the, the legalities of what you need to understand about all this. May, if the prosecutor is particularly good, give you some, again, arrows in your quiver to deal with the questions that might be coming up by maybe running a bit of a mock trial, you know, without the actual thing happening, all these sorts of things, but you’re ready for it because peeling the scab off, you know, the you’re just about healed. 

[00:41:24] There’s a scab on there and that court case could very well pull the scab off and get you thinking about everything else. So it’s not wrong if that happens and you have an emotional reaction to recounting what’s there. And it could be two years in our system, two, three years from the time of the incident. 

Travis Bader: [00:41:43] And that’s just for criminal, it could be civil.

Paul Ballard: [00:41:47] Oh yeah. Now think. 

Travis Bader: [00:41:48] Eight years later. 

Paul Ballard: [00:41:49] Well let’s yeah. Let’s talk about the civil, that’s the car accident. 

Travis Bader: [00:41:52] Right. 

Paul Ballard: [00:41:52] That’s the, you know, the other thing, you know, you saw somebody slide down a collapsed escalator in the mall. Uh, you know, those things will, will come. So again, being prepared to, you know, have that return of those emotions and then in turn dealing with that. So we, you know, we, we make it so important that you survived the incident, whatever it is. But surviving, the aftermath can be, you know. 

Travis Bader: [00:42:20] It’s massive. 

Paul Ballard: [00:42:21] Massive. And that’s probably in days of yore where we slipped up right. And it was interesting, you know, we saw probably the first real, you know, in your face is, is the post Vietnam war time. When the first world war was fought, our brave young men, uh, and, and a lot of horses were shipped off to places unknown, you know, that we couldn’t communicate that well with. And when we came back, we lauded them as heroes. And we looked at those guys that were nervous and shaking and couldn’t deal with things as being cowards. 

Travis Bader: [00:43:00] Right. 

Paul Ballard: [00:43:00] But by four and away, those were the guys that, you know, suffered the greatest effects. In a lot of other cases, these guys that went off and they came back, they were welcomed with open arms. They were, they were loved for what they did and, and, you know, affection and emotion can, you know, um, again, I’m not a psychologist everyone, there is no doctor before the Ballard here. But what I’m saying is it was different times.

[00:43:26] The second world war, those guys came back and we were happy cause they, you know, they, they put, uh, fascism in its place and they saved people and they did all sorts of things and we loved them and there were still guys going to hospital and they were shaking and they couldn’t deal with whatever, but we didn’t hear about that.

Travis Bader: [00:43:46] Well, there’s a support system in society for these people. 

Paul Ballard: [00:43:49] That’s right. That supports. 

Travis Bader: [00:43:50] It’s accepted and.

Paul Ballard: [00:43:52] That affection, that love, that, you know, that welcoming. 

Travis Bader: [00:43:55] It frames how you individually look at the event differently if you have that support, if you don’t have that support, because really, or what is it? Shakespeare? Uh, w what does he say? There is neither good, nor bad, but thinking makes it so. The way that we look at things or Viktor Frankl, the fellow who was in the concentration camps, lost everyone, everyone he loved and he was a doctor, and he looked at the effects of these Nazi concentration camps on the psyche of people while he’s in there.

[00:44:26] And he used his time as a bit of an experiment mentally to keep himself rolling. And he says, how come some people can laugh and joke, and other people are absolutely falling apart and they’re both in the same situation. And he came out with what was his famous quote? The one thing that you can’t take from me is the way that I choose to respond to what you do to me. The last of life’s great freedoms is one’s ability to choose their own attitude in any given circumstance. 

[00:44:56] And so really being able to choose your own attitude sometimes is predicated on those around you. If everyone looks at you as the bad person, or they look at what you do as a joke in a story that they tell over beers, perhaps you start looking at it in the same way. 

Paul Ballard: [00:45:17] But you can’t allow that to happen. Let’s let’s continue on. So second world war, they come back. Everything’s, you know, there are people clearly affected, but the majority are welcomed back Vietnam war. 

Travis Bader: [00:45:27] Right. 

Paul Ballard: [00:45:28] These guys, these us soldiers, Marines, airmen, sailors coming back, they’re called baby killers. 

Travis Bader: [00:45:34] Right. 

Paul Ballard: [00:45:34] Ah, you know, huge protests against the war and without getting into politics, whether that war was wrong or right. And look at how long it lasts a day, it lasted from 1961 or two all the way through, you know, 10 years of this going on. And it was always kind of a bit of a shadow war and, and, you know, with the ideals of, you know, suppressing communism, but never really fought in the fashion that a powerful nation like the United States would fight. It was always sort of fringe methods, measures, right? There was no, there was an old overwhelming defeat of the enemy. There was no real, um, at the end of it all. 

Travis Bader: [00:46:14] There’s no win. 

Paul Ballard: [00:46:15] There was no win, there was no completion. There was no satisfaction that we went and did the right thing. And then when we get back, our own people are, you know, baby killers and, you know, horrible things. And that’s when we really saw the preponderance of post-traumatic stress. 

Travis Bader: [00:46:31] Right. 

Paul Ballard: [00:46:32] These Vietnam vets that were, you know, starting to act out and do things and, and go on, and this is the start. And then, you know, as we have evolved in our recognition of, of how the body can be affected, the mind can be effected by the sort of stuff we’re seeing it better off, but we’re still seeing, um, it happened, but a lot of people are being prevented from acting out. Now the thing is it’s, it’s like so much, there’s so much media attention to anything like this that happens. It looks like there’s more. 

Travis Bader: [00:47:07] Right. 

Paul Ballard: [00:47:08] There isn’t more, in fact, there’s probably less of it now because of the treatment, but. 

Travis Bader: [00:47:14] Just gets more attention. 

Paul Ballard: [00:47:15] But there’s more attention when it does happen. And, and th this again is like, you know, to think, oh my gosh, this is rampant. It’s not, you know, don’t, don’t, don’t think that a, man, it it’s, it’s an absolute, that’s going to be the worst situation for me. That guy had it way worse than what you did and look what happened to him, you know, to do the things you could. You’re not gonna be that way as long as you get some treatment for it and, and do what, what you know, people ask of you to, to go through.

Travis Bader: [00:47:46] So, one thing that, uh, if somebody finds himself in that situation and they’re dealing with the recurring thoughts and they’re dealing with the aftermath and they’re dealing with possible criminal or civil, uh, litigation, uh, little things that they can do, uh, exercise. Exercise is huge. Uh, it releases endorphins that had gives you a feeling of accomplishment. It’s, uh, your diet eating a little bit better food is a big, helpful thing. These are just physical things they can do. 

[00:48:19] One thing that is really difficult to do is, um, or diff not difficult to do easy to do, but difficult for a possible recovery and that’s alcohol. And so often people will look to the alcohol as a possible solution and numb it out, but it does have a compounding effect on the psychological response to these.

Paul Ballard: [00:48:39] Yeah. You’re just, you know, I, again, do I think, um, in a team environment. And when we went through things, did we, you know, did we go for drinks? Like after the riot, did we get together and reminisce? Yeah, sure. You know, after a couple of other things that I’ve been through, did we? Yeah. But is that the answer or the solution? No, it’s not. 

[00:49:04] I’ll tell you one of the most interesting things that, you know, in a, in a post situation after the riots in 94, uh, we were having big debriefings and you were notified that on this date, you would report to this location, uh, for the purpose of debriefing after the incident and the individual that was there, that was directing the debrief, you know, had everybody sitting in this big circle and, you know, you’re, you’re vulnerable, you’re, you know, your feet are on the floor.

[00:49:36] Your arms are not crossed. You know, he’s looking for this sort of stuff. And we’re all looking towards this guy. And, and he starts saying, you know, you know, you might feel, uh, all these things, you know, like, uh, feeling complete and that you let people down and, and that, you know, this was like, you might be having nightmares and all this stuff.

[00:49:55] And I still remember this one individual, you know, she, uh, she said, I don’t know about the rest of the people here, but I feel great. And, and, and, and you start to see heads start to nod a little bit. And then she says, you know, not only do I feel great, that was like one of the most terrific moments in my life. And she went on to say, now it wasn’t the fact that it was a whole sale, you know, attack on everything that you’ve ever hated in your life or anything. 

[00:50:29] It was like, what was important was in this group situation that she stood shoulder to shoulder with all these other people that were in equally as bad of a situation as she was, that those people were there and they got through it together. And everybody, you know, was okay. 

Travis Bader: [00:50:52] Right. 

Paul Ballard: [00:50:53] And that was the again, suppression in a normal world. And that’s where they were fighting towards in the beginning of that debriefing was to tell you should feel or the expected to feel. And the reaction was, and an acceptance by everybody there that, you know, what that was okay.

Travis Bader: [00:51:12] And what a healthy way to deal with it too. 

Paul Ballard: [00:51:14] And it was, and it was actually a, what’s the word I want to look for? Um, a turning point a what’s the other one that they. 

Travis Bader: [00:51:24] Pivot? 

Paul Ballard: [00:51:25] Yeah. Diametrically opposed. 

Travis Bader: [00:51:27] Oh. 

Paul Ballard: [00:51:27] No, there’s a better one in there. I’ll I’ll call I’ll think of it. When, when I haven’t been drinking, no, just kidding, uh, that, that, um, psychologist said, I got to change the way I’m approaching this and they did. And it was just interesting that one incident, this, this was a huge learning environment for that psychologist, because they were never dealing with, you know, couple hundred people or more that went through these sessions afterwards. 

Travis Bader: [00:51:56] And you know what, maybe a good psychologist shouldn’t be telling a person how they should feel. Maybe they should be asking the question. And I think that emphasizes a really good point, which is there’s a whole slew of different professionals out there who are psychiatrists or psychologists. If they’re not speaking your language, find somebody else. 

Paul Ballard: [00:52:16] Yeah. Yeah. And, and that’s, you know, doctor shopping is not uncommon in this day and age or second opinion. And, and like I say, if you are in that, you know, this, this, this treatment doesn’t seem to be working for me, go somewhere else, you know, go somewhere else and, and see what they have to say. I’m always a fan of going to somebody that might have a little bit of experience in the subject matter. 

Travis Bader: [00:52:40] Right. 

Paul Ballard: [00:52:40] Okay. I want to have somebody, that’s got context on what I’m talking about and that’s a help, you know, and, and there are people like that. There are people that, uh, you know, Randy Mackoff, you know, he, he, he left the police service, he became a counsellor, you know, or a psycho, you know, and that’s his thing, but he’s got that grounding. So if he’s talking to the cops, you know, he was a cop. 

[00:53:08] I mean, there are, you know, women who are psychologists that were rape victims and they have that grounding. And they went through all the stages that go on that that are a part of such a horrible trauma. You know, the, I mean, what’s worse being murdered or being raped. My God, you know, a rape victim has to live it every day. You know, the murder victim. It’s, it’s it, you know, it’s horrible. It’s an awful thing, but it’s not the same. 

[00:53:37] And, and if somebody has, has, has walked that mile ahead of you, you know, it’s, it’s a lot easier to take information from them, you know, it just, I thought, and, and just the way I am, like, I don’t, I don’t want to go and I don’t want to go and train for something with somebody who maybe hasn’t even done it themselves. I would rather, I would go and listen to somebody who has a bit of experience and feel better about that. 

Travis Bader: [00:54:03] So that covers a fair bit on the, the after the after really is. Check yourself out, check your . Surroundings, make sure that the threats. 

Paul Ballard: [00:54:11] In the immediate. 

Travis Bader: [00:54:11] Done. 

Paul Ballard: [00:54:12] Well, the afters in the immediate, in the near and then in the future. 

Travis Bader: [00:54:18] Right.

Paul Ballard: [00:54:18] Okay. 

Travis Bader: [00:54:19] And the, the near in the future, a lot of that has to do with how you deal with it in the immediate, because that can really shape how the future looks. You ran your mouth right afterwards to the media. You’re talking about how great you feel and how, how fast was over. When in fact video cameras will show it being a lot longer and contradict you. And now you look like a liar, maybe just zipper your mouth up, say what’s important in the time and talk to some professionals. 

Paul Ballard: [00:54:48] Yep. And, and you know what, even if you aren’t directly involved and you do witness something horrible like that, but you now have given a statement, you are now in it. 

Travis Bader: [00:54:58] And that’s it.

Paul Ballard: [00:54:59] You are like, and, and for, let’s go back to what kind of started this, Travis. I said, Hey, we’re watching all this stuff on TV and one of the reoccurring statements is I can’t believe it. 

Travis Bader: [00:55:11] Right. 

Paul Ballard: [00:55:12] I’ve never seen anything like it. So now those people, who were not directly involved, they were in the nearby, um, are going to be the people who are givin’ statements perhaps later, are going to be witnesses in court. And that all could have an effect or an outcome on you. If you were part of the direct, if you were at the, you know, the epicentre of whatever happens. 

[00:55:38] So we need to understand that. And, and again, even talk, let’s talk to those people on the periphery. If you were emotionally affected by what you saw, um, take advantage of our, our medical system and get something for it, you know, get, get, get the treatment you need when you’re givin’ your statement to the cops. 

[00:56:05] Tell the cop, you know, is it normal that I, you know, I’m feeling like this afterwards and you know, the measure of the police officer will, of course, you know, the, and, and let’s, you know, here’s on the back of my business card is victim’s assistance and, and, you know, through worksafe BC and their agreements and other things that are out there and available to you get help, and it’s not going to cost you anything.

Travis Bader: [00:56:29] And I think that’s a really good point, asking for that help from an officer on the scene, is a statement in itself. 

Paul Ballard: [00:56:37] Right. And I mean, and, and I really want to, at this point too, not just because I did it and because my circle of friends extends to law enforcement, but really they are there, in most cases to help. Although sometimes you got to hurt somebody to help them. And, and we can’t emphasize, you know, that it, it would be better if that didn’t happen, but that’s not all cops do. 

[00:57:05] You know, these are highly intelligent, dedicated, and this is for somebody out there, courageous people, who are willing to leave their homes every day with a potential, not coming back to it, to do things for you, but in the mundane, in the day to day, they have the information, the skills and the ability, you know, to genuinely help you out of these situations.

Travis Bader: [00:57:28] Hmm. You know, I always look at police like any other profession, like any other person there is going to be the preponderance of the gross majority of police officers are people who want to do good and are, have high ideals and that’s why they get into it. But there are going to be a couple of bad apples, and there’s going to be a couple that are. 

Paul Ballard: [00:57:48] Absolutely. 

Travis Bader: [00:57:49] Absolutely exemplary. But after a while of being a police officer and dealing with the same things, people, human nature, it’s normal, people stand, tend to be developed patterns in getting ruts, kind of like game animals, have game trails for a reason, cause that’s the easy way they’ve learned that’s where it goes. 

[00:58:11] And after a certain period of time, it’s not that a police officer could be bad and they aren’t, but they just doing their job, but they’re definitely not out there to do bad against you. And there’s going to be some that are always just absolutely striving. And I find more and more that they are just out there striving, but the media doesn’t really pick up on those ones do they? 

Paul Ballard: [00:58:32] Nope. They’re looking for the bad examples that goes through and you know, you gotta to remember absolutely everybody out here that’s listening today has a bad day. And so if that’s the bad day that you met that cop on, if that was their bad day, you can’t condemn everybody that’s out there nor maybe even that person that you dealt with in uniform that day, and a complete condemnation from a one contact thing. Not, not very good. 

Travis Bader: [00:58:58] And after an incident like this, meeting, uh, wanting to explain your side, you know, that you’re right. And you just want to tell the police officer and you see them treating you in a fashion that maybe you’re a suspect in that that could be difficult to take, or maybe they’re having a bad day and they just automatically put that black hat on you and right from the right from the beginning.

Paul Ballard: [00:59:19] Yeah. 

Travis Bader: [00:59:19] That can all be very difficult for people to understand because they tend to depersonalize the person in uniform, but they’re going through the same garbage. 

Paul Ballard: [00:59:31] Yup, absolutely. And like I say, you know, you know, when you’re about to give a statement and they stop you and then they tell you that, you know, you’re not obliged to say anything and anything. 

Travis Bader: [00:59:43] Shut your mouth. 

Paul Ballard: [00:59:44] Shut your mouth. That’s exactly right. And you know, even though you know that I never did anything wrong. Shut your mouth. 

Travis Bader: [00:59:53] That’s right. 

Paul Ballard: [00:59:54] That’s what you know, now this is the only costly thing involved in there is getting a lawyer involved because that is money, but that’s money well spent, you know, um, because, shut your mouth. I can’t say anything more. And that’s, you know, that, that, that means that you’re being looked at for whatever this is. 

Travis Bader: [01:00:14] Right. 

Paul Ballard: [01:00:14] And until circumstances clear you, you need to prepare yourself. I want to cooperate with you, but at this point I need to, you know, have my thoughts sort of examined. 

Travis Bader: [01:00:26] There’s nothing that you can say right now that you can’t better articulate. 

Paul Ballard: [01:00:31] Later on. 

Travis Bader: [01:00:31] Tomorrow.

Paul Ballard: [01:00:32] Right.

Travis Bader: [01:00:32] The next day. 

Paul Ballard: [01:00:33] Exactly. 

Travis Bader: [01:00:34] Nothing’s changing. 

Paul Ballard: [01:00:35] Yeah. Yeah. I think, yeah. Leaving it at that. 

Travis Bader: [01:00:38] I think so. 

Paul Ballard: [01:00:39] Okay. 

Travis Bader: [01:00:40] Okay, Paul, thank you very much. This has been a fantastic series. We’ve been getting great feedback from all the listeners on it. I really appreciate your unique insight on this. 

Paul Ballard: [01:00:52] I don’t think it’s unique, but it’s, you know, one that I’m willing to talk about and, and, uh, I’m not right. 

Travis Bader: [01:00:57] Well you’ve got a unique perspective. And you can speak from your perspective. And I appreciate that. Thank you. 

Paul Ballard: [01:01:04] Thanks for the opportunity Travis.

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