Rock climbing over river
episode 78 | May 31, 2022
Personal Growth
Law Enforcement/Military

Ep. 78: British Army Mental Resilience and the Call of the Wild

Travis Bader speaks candidly with two ex British Army soldiers about the importance of community, belonging and trust and how our connection with the natural world affects our wellbeing. Transitioning from military to civilian life presents challenges and learning lessons that everyone, regardless of their background, can find value in. Tune in for some hard learned lessons on mental resiliency, re-establishing purpose and dealing with adversity. I would encourage everyone to listen to this in its entirety and to share their thoughts and experiences so that others who may be struggling can benefit.
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[00:00:00] Travis Bader: I'm Travis Bader and this is the Silvercore Podcast. Silvercore has been providing its members with a skills and knowledge necessary to be confident and proficient in the outdoors for over 20 years. And we make it easier for people to deepen their connection to the natural world. If you enjoy the positive and educational content we provide, please let others know by sharing commenting and following so that you can join in on everything that Silvercore stands for. If you'd like to learn more about becoming a member of the Silvercore Club and community, visit our website at

[00:01:07] Today, I'm sitting down with Silvercore ambassador and my friends, Jason, Budd and D Nugent Silvercore. When selecting ambassadors looks for people who have a positive outlook, a passion for life, a zeal for the outdoors, they're always looking to. Themselves better to perfect their craft, to share that with others and to share that positivity with others and Jason and Dean are absolutely no exception to that rule.

[00:01:38] Gentlemen, thank you for joining me on the Silvercore Podcast. Thanks 

[00:01:43] Dean Nugent: for having me. Thanks for having us. And I'm busted. I'm actually touched by the 

[00:01:48] Travis Bader: well you guys has came back from, uh, I've been watching the feed here for a bit, a little bit jealous. Uh, you were in the smoke Bluffs out in Squamish. You were in, uh, climbing in Scott Hall there and clone at Penticton Colona, FinTech, FinTech, that area.

[00:02:04] Yeah, it's been a while since we've been there has 

[00:02:07] Jason Budd: while we had you TIFF and, uh, My partner at the time, quite a few years ago, maybe 13, 2013, that's going back or even further 

[00:02:18] Travis Bader: going back a bit. I got to dust off some of my old climbing kit. I still use it, but I haven't been using it for climbing 

[00:02:23] Dean Nugent: for me being eight years since I last time.

[00:02:25] Yeah. So maybe 

[00:02:26] Jason Budd: we were there 2000, 10, 11, maybe with TEF. Cause I know it was like a Semite. We camped at the brand Barre campsite and yeah. 

[00:02:37] Travis Bader: Yeah, that was, that was a good deal. We ate well in Dean, I'm looking at some of the food that you've been making up all the 

[00:02:43] Dean Nugent: steak dinner, you missed the steak dinner.

[00:02:45] Yeah. 

[00:02:46] Travis Bader: Amazing. But you were saying earlier that you only climb with Jace. 

[00:02:50] Dean Nugent: Yeah. I don't trust anybody else. 

[00:02:52] Travis Bader: So have you climbed much? 

[00:02:55] Dean Nugent: Um, I only got into climbing in 2014 when I come over the first time and it was like, Jay, she was like, oh, come on, let's try it. You know, he was getting into climbing. So he says, I'll take you out.

[00:03:06] And it was like, is this my thing? Because sometimes you're following somebody in life or you want to do it. Sure. So I was like, yeah. Okay. Then we'll go and have a go at this. Um, and then it was like, bloody hell. Why, why haven't I done this sooner? Yeah. When we went and 

[00:03:23] Jason Budd: did start Chuck. Yeah. And I've taken Travis over start check because when we got into the base, you said to me, I know why you do this.

[00:03:30] Yeah. Yeah. And 

[00:03:32] Dean Nugent: then, uh, cause you've got the train track. Haven't you running? There's a bridge and we was halfway up and this train trains coming. So I'm looking down this valley with mountains in the background, a train going over the bridge. And I'm like, I'm at a place where not many people come and get this view.

[00:03:51] And that's the thing about climbing. And then as we progressed on, you know, on that trip, um, to more stuff, it was like, I'm going places nobody's been before or ODS select few of people. Would attempt to go up because the rest of the people down on the ground look and go crazy. But the thing with Jason is he has that ability to teach you and put you in a calm place so that when you're doing it, you're like, I know whatever happens, that guy on the other end of that rope has my back.

[00:04:27] Travis Bader: That's where the trust thing comes in. Yeah. And that was something that we were talking about earlier. And I thought, you know, that's, that'll be an interesting topic on the, uh, on the podcast is to maybe touch on a little bit. Um, but being able to find that trust in others and in yourself as well, the confidence that being outdoors brings you, that being in the mountains brings you that being on the rock face, when you turn around and say, you know, there are others out there that do this, but we've just narrowed those numbers down significant.

[00:05:01] Uh, there's a level of confidence that comes with that. How did, well, you know, why don't we rewind a little bit? How did you and Jason first meet? 

[00:05:11] Dean Nugent: So, um, I joined the army in 99 and we used to have two phases here, phase one, where you go and learn how to iron care, make your bed. He do lots of fitness and you get to a certain stage.

[00:05:25] Then you would do phase two, which was infantry. Um, um, my platoon, when we passed out, uh, we only had, I think it was something like 12 or 15 guys passed out out of the 30 odd. So it was known as a small platoon. So then Jason's was the same. So we've got, when we got to Catterick the English guys from the prince of Wales division were told, right.

[00:05:46] Your mic, you're going to be put in a job, platoon straight away. It's like, oh, jocks, that's a Scott Scott. So it's, it's not an athlete. Um, so straight women like, ah, jocks and all the training staff were Scottish, you know, um, training staff as well. So straight away the English on the back foot, because the jocks in English don't really like each other to a point.

[00:06:09] Sure. We're not fighting anymore, but there's still that. So it's like, yeah, we're just. I was one of the oldest and Jason was one of the oldest. Sorry, you say all of 

[00:06:18] Jason Budd: this at 2120 debt, right? Because average age is like 16, 17. You guys are 

[00:06:22] Dean Nugent: all boys. When they call in his grant, they called me granddad at 21 at 21.

[00:06:26] Yeah. And it's like, this is 99. Yeah. Yeah. 99, 2000, beginning of 2000. So straight away we sort of mingled to each other because of our age and then got talking to Jason. He had his experience in the Canadian army. So it was like, okay. And my father was in the army. I was in the army cadet. So I have a background in the military.

[00:06:48] So it was like, yeah, we know what's coming, we'll just get on with it type of thing. Um, but then when you had your time off, Jason would like you just like, oh, I'm going to stay as a staff, come down to mind, you know, come and meet the moment and think so, we'd get the train down to mine, go meet mum. And then eventually my mother was like, Uh, had sort of been adopted.

[00:07:08] So at the end of training, when you pass out, they have a parade, we do this big parade. We March up and down the square, everybody that's got family go for this Curry lunch, anybody that doesn't have anybody that goes back to the block and have to clean it. So of course Jason's now go going because he hasn't got any family from Canada.

[00:07:26] Um, and as he's walking away, my mum shuts where you go in and he says, I've got go back to the block because you know, I don't have any family here. She says, you're my son. You're coming for colon. So ever since then he's been, so my mum's adopted him and he's been part of the buy here, his family to me now it's not a part.

[00:07:46] He is, he he's a brother more than a friend. Um, and it just went on for them. And then a lot of Jason progressed in the army a lot more than I did. I sat on my phone. Um, so he was going down for courses down in Bracken, but Tewksburys already an hour from Brechin. So of course, then he would come back, do his washing mum would always say, where's your Adobe, which is washing.

[00:08:08] So first vendor laundry. So as soon as he gets out of the car, you know, mom's doing that. Um, and yeah, for 22, yes, 22 years. So 

[00:08:17] Jason Budd: the, the bit of the background, as well as, um, if you remember, I think one of our first podcasts, my mum passed away when I was in the EMT training. So I went back for the funeral square root of dot, and then I came back.

[00:08:29] So, um, I was there for the final exercise. And the Passover. And I remember Dean's mom when, um, everyone had to come up and get their certificate for passing and Dean's mom stood up and cheered louder, louder for him. 

[00:08:49] Dean Nugent: And even my sister stood up and I was like, come 

[00:08:52] Jason Budd: on now. Yeah, really? So, I mean, and not, and to me, she was my English mother, like, um, you know, I talked about when being injured on that, on the, on the last day, the Hills and selection, there was mother waiting out on the drive was I pulled up, coming out, big hug, grabbed the laundry right away.

[00:09:11] Um, like when I say like family, like when I got fast ball to go to Afghan with that, you know, one, two weeks notice to move. I left mother. Um, or my bank account. And I said, this is if you need it. And unfortunately, Laura, which is Dean sister, my sister, husband passed away and mother had to use, I don't know, five, 600 pounds to help with the funeral arrangements.

[00:09:38] And then she sent a message out to me. It eventually gets to me and, um, and I get a message back say, Nope, that is what it was for. Right. He was going to pay me back to all pay backs on everything. I'm like, Nope, it's a gift. That's for the years of the Sunday roast dinners, the laundry, um, the support I didn't hold up.

[00:09:58] Yeah. Like even to the point, like when I left, I accidentally forgot like 500 year-olds I S I had sold a couch. Does some of the jocks in Germany, I was leaving. And I, and I just first saved key things left in the dress door ever of her place. Yeah. And I remember it as a flu. I'm like, I forgot the 500 year olds and I messaged her and she's like, I'll send it to you.

[00:10:20] And I knew, I think she was going to Egypt. I'm like, Nope, that is your spending money. You, I enjoy that, uh, the time away. 

[00:10:27] Travis Bader: So, you know, money, money comes and goes. You can make more money, you can have no money, but that connection that you have with somebody else that bonds that you form, that trust that you build, you can't put a price tag on that.

[00:10:41] And there's been many cliches written about it. But I think if people can just hold that mindset of what's truly important in life and it isn't money. No. Um, it, it will help. I think it would help a lot of people in their perspective and how they comport themselves. I think 

[00:11:01] Dean Nugent: they just need to be true to their selves and their friends.

[00:11:04] That's the thing we've been Jason there's no, there's no, you know, airs and graces, but we're true to each other are not lie to him and are not lie to me. 

[00:11:14] Travis Bader: And that's the biggest 

[00:11:15] Dean Nugent: thing you can ask, as long as you got that, you then get that respect of that other person, even though I'm a clown. Sometimes I know I am sure at the same time, I know that he's got my bike last.

[00:11:26] That's my brother, because I'm, I am me with him. I'm not I'm nobody else. I don't pretend I am me 

[00:11:34] Travis Bader: developing that level of honesty or brutal honesty, not only with yourself or with somebody else is something that a lot of people go through life and they, they, they never actually get their 

[00:11:46] Dean Nugent: trust. 

[00:11:46] Travis Bader: And I find climbing being in the mountains, being in the Hills personally helps you to develop that level of honesty with yourself.

[00:11:56] And it kind of cuts through a lot of that noise and static that life generally holds. So you can see what's truly important and. Once you reach out yourself, you don't really want to be hanging around other people who don't kind of have that similar perspective. That's what I find anyways. I don't know if you 

[00:12:15] Dean Nugent: guys see that.

[00:12:16] Yeah, I agree with that. Um, yeah, I had a few times where I've not been in the wrong crowds, but there's people around that SAP, the energy out of you. Um, and it is once you find that circle or then people, what you get back from them peoples far greater than any reward. Because if you find somebody that's passionate about what they do and it's similar to what you do when you're out doing something, it comes natural.

[00:12:46] And, and that's, that's the thing. We've mountains, Hills ultra running that I've done climbing with Jason, it's that sense of belonging with that community. And that community is the same as you and wants to do what you, you know, you're in. Um, and yeah. I'll climb with him wherever he wants to go. 

[00:13:08] Travis Bader: Well, I want to catch up with Jason on, uh, on where you're at with your, uh, ACM G your ski guides, your AMJ ratings.

[00:13:17] But before I do that, I'm looking at your shirt. It says HR 4k. What is that? 

[00:13:23] Dean Nugent: So HR 4k is it's a brand, um, it's run by an ex guy from, uh, Hereford DSAs. Um, and what Ben set up is acuity of adventurous operators and stuff like that, and for anybody else. So he also has the blue light services will come. Um, they have black rifle, coffee, contact, coffee, and all the, all the other, you know, sort of veteran don't stuff.

[00:13:48] And he promotes veteran owned businesses. He promotes local businesses in Hereford. It's not all about the military, but it's about people that are motivated about people, uh, that want to be part of community that help you. Uh, he's done a lot for veterans and they, they continue to do a lot for veterans, but they do some good stuff as well.

[00:14:10] And, you know, we've the American veteran community. And then the UK community Ben, and the rest of his team, they do something like that. They have some wicked events. So there's like, uh, I think it's every Sunday, first Sunday of the month they have the car, the motor bike, they do smoke it. So he's just belt smokers who does brisket.

[00:14:32] And it's not the same, but it's, you know, and it's that. And it's, it's that community where you want to be part of, you know, this guy isn't of, I'm an elite and this is what I used to do. He'll sit down and talk to him. And your story's just as good as his story and that, and, and Chris, our friend has sat down, you know, we've been a few times and they've taught and, and there's a few other guys that Chris is welling with.

[00:15:01] And they're in all of Chris's story because when you're in the regular forces, you look up and you think that God, you know these guys, but when you, when you get, and you don't take that away from them, but when they sit and they say to you, look, don't, you know, what you've done is just as you sort of sit back and you go, yeah, so, Hey, char 4k or art, it's that community based.

[00:15:24] And that's where I like that. That sort of what you were just talking about surrounding yourself with them, all people. And that's the sort of people I want to surround myself with, because they'll give you the time of day. And if they've got a contact within the security sector or, you know, shoot or what, they'll pass that on to you, there isn't a, well, who are you?

[00:15:42] You know? Oh, you were just a Lance corporal in the British. It's like, no, how can I help you out? 

[00:15:49] Travis Bader: You know, th they always say, you can tell a lot about a person by how they treat somebody who can't do anything for them, right? The person who will berate the wait staff for the cleaning staff, because they figure that they're in a different position of power, um, tells you a lot about the person.

[00:16:06] And I've never gone a bunch for people who will hang on their past accolades of what they used to do. I've always got time to listen. I've always got time to, um, uh, to learn about those past accolades, but it's who you are right now. That really makes a difference because you can have been just a wonder in the past and just a prime loser now, um, and vice versa.

[00:16:32] So surrounding yourself with those like-minded people, I'm going to check out HR 4k. So Jace, tell me, where are things going with your, uh, your journey into the Hills here and getting yourself a credit? Well, 

[00:16:47] Jason Budd: the Hills, you bring that up. Um, I do have to do a quick shadow shout out to, um, I mentioned Dean's family, but I also have a Brecken family and I haven't really chatted too much about them, but, um, they're a family that owns JJ surplus door in Breckon and Nessa, Vanessa, uh, mother G and there are my Breck and family and Vanessa is kind of like a little sister.

[00:17:11] Um, they always helped me with every time I was there. They, um, you know, my nickname was buddy there and they've been in touch and I've gone back and visited them too. So, um, and thinking about the Hills, they, when I got injured, they already knew I was injured and off on the last day. Um, cause they're friends with the DS staff.

[00:17:32] So, so when I showed up in and at the house to see them, mother Jean was already waiting for me as well. A cup of tea. Is that all right, son, you know, so the family entity, you don't have to be blood to be family. Right. So I just had to do a shout out there, cause that says always on my case for not mentioning her, uh, in our, in our podcast.

[00:17:54] But yeah. Um, you know, I, I passed my full ski guide with DCM. CMG is winter. Um, good to get that out of the way. Uh, I did pass cause I am in the American mountain guide association for the, um, Alpine and rock. Yeah. And they have apprentice assistant full and Canada. We have a Prentice and full, full ski guide or full rock guide.

[00:18:20] Um, and the end state is to become, um, a full guide in each the rock Alpine and ski. And then you're a full IFM GA international Federation of mountain guide association, mountain guide. So, um, I, yeah, so it passed the full ski guide. Did the assistant rock last year was successful. I'm doing the assistant opine exam in cascades, Washington in June.

[00:18:45] And then that will qualify me as an aspirin mountain guide. So it comes with its own benefits and labels too. So next year I just have to do the full rock and red rock and then the full Alpine. And then I will be at that IFM GA um, member or qualified. Right. So, and it's interesting, we've been talking about, um, identifying or that like-minded people and, um, the military is an ID.

[00:19:19] Isn't is an ID. You identify where that, uh, coming out, I joined the fire service, so, uh, union sticker in the window and everything is how we identify ourselves. 

[00:19:29] Travis Bader: Right. People like to belong to things 

[00:19:31] Jason Budd: along to something tribal. Sure. Right. Um, but. One thing that, I mean, I really enjoyed the fire, sir. I enjoyed the first year cause really robust, resilient.

[00:19:42] They train you hard as probationers, but as the first year goes on, I was missing something and it was the robustness resilience at the infantry brought me and a realize is that we're always searching for this ID. And for me it was searching for that healthy ID. What is that healthy ID for me? And I started getting involved with outward bound veteran Canada, and I was already doing dabbling in climbing and stuff, but it was that first exposure without rebel veterans, we did a ski traverse.

[00:20:14] I think they only did two other programs and they dialed the back. Cause that was a pretty big commitment. Right. But they're there, but that really got me thinking, yeah, I can do this. And I liked this identity and I actually like what they were doing with the veterans at the time. So that was really my first structure of goal.

[00:20:30] This is what I have to do. Um, to go through the guiding system. And I actually did a few other courses with our rebel veterans. I did the rock and then came back as a ski instructor. So basically they'd have two guides and outward bounds instructor, veterans, instructor. And that's where I came in and did for a few years.

[00:20:47] Uh, but like everything you can't work full time in the fire service trained to be a guide and then keep doing other stuff. Cause I was involved Squamish search and rescue business owner of a rescue company, and then things start falling apart. Right. So because you're doing too much. Right. But I think that's really important when coming back to that healthy ID and that's where for me, I identify in the mountains and that is my actual ID range.

[00:21:16] Right. 

[00:21:16] Travis Bader: So it's funny that you kind of segwayed into that because as you're talking there, I was in the back of my head think. And have you ever thought about why you identify in the mountains and as you're going through these different accreditation's to be a full fledged mountain guide? Um,

[00:21:37] as long as I've known you, you're always pushing, always striving, always looking for the next thing, Dean, like you're saying I was sitting on my thumb, but Jace was, uh, progressing through the, through the ranks there. What is it that's pushing you? 

[00:21:53] Jason Budd: I've always like, even in the Canadian army, I was just saying, I was like the next course, the next year, the next posting, um, you know, maybe I'm just wired that way.

[00:22:05] Like I, my, my one partner, uh, Laura said at the time, like, what is, when is enough is enough for you? Right. And, uh, I had a chat with Dean about it. And I think for me, it's going to be that, um, for me, it will be the IFM GA when I'm qualified as this as a mountain guide for that. But we were talking about what we deemed as successful.

[00:22:27] Cause I mentioned, because I said we were driving. I'm like, Dean, can you text Charles since and, and see, um, which, which place we're going to. Right. Cause there's two. Yes. So he texted you and I said, yeah, you know, Travis is, is pretty successful. And he says, what, what's your, uh, what made you call success?

[00:22:47] What do you call successful? And for me it's not financial stability. Well, it is stability in that, but it's being in a position where you can do what you want and not worry about the financial obligations. Right? So for me, it could be like, I can retire from the fire service in four years. Sure. And with all the pensions, I don't have to worry.

[00:23:09] And then when I work in whatever organization, as, as, as a mountain guide, I that's for me, that's what I want to do versus have to do. Right. So for me, that's it could be living in a micro home, off a $1,000 budget and you make it, you're growing your own food. And to me that's successful. That's my dream.

[00:23:31] Yeah. Okay. Dean, 

[00:23:33] Travis Bader: what's success to you. 

[00:23:34] Dean Nugent: This been able to do, like I'm at a point where I can work and then I can stop and I can go and do what I want to do. I don't own a home or anything back in the UK just I'll stay where I'm working and I'll go see my children. And then it's like, right. Um, I'm in a happy place.

[00:23:54] I'm surrounded by the right people that I believe are the right people. Um, and I'm able to able to do that. When other people are looking in in, they're like, wow, that's amazing you in Canada, what you do, I'm just visiting my brother raid to me by other people that is a lifetimes, you know, saving, or they they've got a plan.

[00:24:12] All this so successful for me is to look in the mirror and am I happy with myself and what I'm doing here I am. 

[00:24:21] Jason Budd: And that's why for you drama. I was saying like, to be able to run these podcasts on a long weekend with buddies is to be. Jarvis is successful guy. Well, you know, you've had to work hard to get here.

[00:24:37] Travis Bader: Like that's the, you know, and, and I default to, I should probably come up with my own definition of success, but I've always stolen, uh, Earl Nightingale's, cause I've identified with it. And he says, success is a progressive realization of a worthy ideal. Yeah. It doesn't matter what you are. If you're the school teacher that loves teaching in your, uh, your worthy ideal is to help others.

[00:25:00] And you're progressively working towards that. Uh, if you're the high flying entrepreneur or whatever, making a bunch of money, whatever that were the ideal is to you, success is that progressive realization. And

[00:25:17] you know, it's, um, it's one of these things that, uh, money does to a certain degree by happiness. They've done studies and they say. People need to eat. They need shelter, they need clothing. They need some basic necessities. They need climbing here. Right? Speaking of that, I might have some in my place anyways.

[00:25:40] Um, 

[00:25:41] Jason Budd: I still have your hang board. That's right now in, in the back in the bedroom. Um, 

[00:25:47] Travis Bader: we should probably tell people the hang board is that's mounted in your bedroom before they get some weird ideas. 

[00:25:51] Jason Budd: It's for strengthening your hand grip and trap bought it. So drive is very, um, passionate. When he gets a new hobbies, he went out and bought all this stuff.

[00:26:01] I've actually drilled. I should send a photo, but you want to be able to take weight off this isn't so I have a pulley system hooked up, so I add 10, 15 pounds so I can hang or do pull ups and it takes the weight off. So you're not straining your ligament. So actually drill. Um, a hook into that doorframe because the hang boards mounted above it with this pulley system.

[00:26:22] And my partner is deaf. He used to be number three in the world for bouldering and the outdoor circuit. And she hasn't trained to that level. She's a phenomenal climber, but when I break this up and the police she's like, wow, I haven't thought I'd be training on a hang board and yours and it's there. So that's 

[00:26:39] Travis Bader: funny.

[00:26:39] Well, that's yours. You keep it. Now, these, I tore my, uh, what is it? Brachial? Radialis radial brachialis, uh, 250 pounds is doing too many. Pull-ups doing too many. And then that sets you back. So, and you know, 

[00:26:54] Jason Budd: Travis would be honest, like the level that we were climbing at, you didn't need to train. I know they hang on, they 

[00:27:03] Dean Nugent: all in or not at all.

[00:27:04] Exactly. 

[00:27:05] Travis Bader: But that, um, that success piece is interesting. Uh, I had a dentist, Dr. Crenn growing up and, uh, um, they lived next to us, well, close to us. They would, they had horses and ride their horses. When I was a kid, I, uh, I was learning to swim in their pool. They had a YMC come by, almost drown there three times in my life.

[00:27:29] I've almost drowned. And that was one of them. I got pulled out by my hair from the, uh, uh, the deep end. But, um, he always had, you know, the horses, the pool, the properties is a travel and everyone just head down to Phoenix, went to Andrew's place in Arizona. And, uh, check that out. I said, well, what's it like to be rich?

[00:27:48] He says, you know, the more money I make, the more bills you have. Yeah. It, it really, after a certain point and you have those necessities. Money really doesn't mean anything. And you can always go once you get that mindset, once you've earned and done something, it's easy to get back there because in your head you've got that unlocked.

[00:28:09] It's just like climbing. Once you figure out a route, it's like, okay, it's easier and easier. I know how to do that route now, because for whatever reason, you were stuck on that crux and you just couldn't get by it. But now, now it's unlocked. Life's kind of the same way I find once you reach those plateaus, but being able to differentiate once you find that little money portion and realize that there isn't a hell of a lot of happiness, that's found, there is a point of diminishing returns.

[00:28:37] And what is it that brings brings you joy. And so the mountains bring you joy, being surrounded by the people who are like-minded bring you joy. Um, 

[00:28:46] Jason Budd: well, I drove, I did talk about like the robustness, right. That I missed, but, you know, um, you know, my mental health kinda, um, wasn't it. Doing well in 2000 16, 16, 17, really?

[00:29:01] Um, and I can honestly say the mountain saved me, um, and I can relate climbing. Um, my mental health is reflected in my climbing. So if I'm leading a lead climbing and climbing in say tens or low elevenths, I'm on my game. If I have fear of falling because we are protecting and everything else. And it's definitely, I know I'm off my game and what I've had to do that is just continue at a lower grade or top rope or second, but climbing is that, um, direct correlation of where my mental health set and there some studies coming out, um, for me, BC of some scientists studying that and relating to her, there's always people doing studies and, and, uh, I've partaked in a few of it.

[00:29:57] And I can say, I can, you know, assess where I'm at with my mental health is where I'm at with my climbing grades and where I'm at. So I just know where I'm at in my game, you 

[00:30:08] Travis Bader: know, you know, I, I don't think I'm quite as fine tuned on that as you are, but I can definitely reflect the same. I know. My pack feels a hell of lot heavier when my head's not in the right place.

[00:30:20] I know I'm winded faster. I know my attitude sucks. And sometimes it's just a matter of getting a little bit of a warm liquids, India and getting the hard shell on. And all of a sudden I'm warmed up a bit and everything goes from sort of a despondent feeling in your head. Like you're out in the middle of nowhere and it's up to you to make sure you get yourself back to, okay, this is fun.

[00:30:41] I got it. I got it handled. Um, it's amazing how much the mental health aspect impacts, um, the physical performance when you're, when you're pushing yourself, when you're pushing your boundaries. 

[00:30:54] Jason Budd: Well, we mentioned like trust, right? So when you have PTSD or if you have your suffering and your mental health, you lose the ability to trust.

[00:31:06] Right. Like, um, trusting yourself, trusting others, you lose that and climbing. If you're in a two man rope team with troopers and rope team, you're have to trust each other, you know, um, that intimacy intimacy amongst the partners is there. Um, I remember this love 10 of Vancouver fire. I just come in from climbing before my night shift and Vancouver fire is big hockey group.

[00:31:33] Um, there's quite a few climbers in it too, but this left tenant kinda chirped at me and said, climbing's not a team sport, not like hockey. Right. But, and I thought about that quite a bit. And in a way I could see on the big level, it's not a team event, but it is a team event because I could be guiding to clients.

[00:31:55] I could be ski guiding and have eight to 10 clients. Like if I'm working at powder mountain, the heli ski got me and I worked for. Um, or have worked for, I get have 12 clients and a tail guide and the cat operator. We're a big team. We're all a team from the clients to the ski guides, to the driver, to the other cat.

[00:32:11] That's working there to the heli team. That's out as well. Roll one big team. So I could see, yeah, maybe on a hockey concept. It's not the same, but we're definitely operating as a team. 

[00:32:25] Travis Bader: There's a certain point of the military as well. And being British army that climbing brings back because if you're on a hockey team and he don't have buddies back and you ended up losing the game, everyone Rass, he ain't go home, have a few drinks and try better the next time.

[00:32:39] If you're in the Hills, you're in the mountains and you don't have buddies back and buddy doesn't have your back. He can have some pretty dire consequences. And that is. I think from my perspective, watching you, there's three things that I've seen. Number one is, uh, perhaps it's a bit of a replacement for the camaraderie and level of trust that you would find in the British army.

[00:33:06] No, a second, not a second one would be, um, there's a forced presence that you start putting yourself into. So when people want to be present, they will sit down and they'll do their mantra and they'll own. And they listen to their surroundings and they look at colors or they smell or whatever it is, they just try very hard to not be in the past, not be in the future, be in the present well climbing and being in the mountains, forces you to be present in a way that, um, You have no other choice, if I'm not thinking about my next handhold, if you're not thinking about how you've placed your protection or your gear, your clients, um, there are dire consequences.

[00:33:51] And I think from a PTSD standpoint, there's, I wonder if it's, I would think that it's healthy, but being able to differentiate or being able to use that presence experience as a, um, a segue to be able to do it without climbing cause otherwise number three comes and that's, if you can't find that level of presence without pushing yourself, then you're always going to be pushing those boundaries.

[00:34:20] And when you say when's enough and when you say, you know, the, uh, the mountain safe. There was a point Jace where I figured I was, you know, mentally preparing that. And you know, maybe the idea behind the mountains were to push harder and harder and harder until such a point that it's the mountains no longer save you.

[00:34:40] And that was, um, I always one of those things, I, that I wondered if that was a driving factor and maybe it was a one point, but I sure don't think that is now. 

[00:34:51] Jason Budd: And, you know, traveling, you, you talked about the present moment. Um, this association was a big problem for me. Um, like I live in Squamish. I drive to Vancouver for work with the Barth fire service.

[00:35:07] There's an hour there that would force me to discuss. And then I'm not in the present moment and I'm back, maybe in Iraq, run back in Afghanistan or I'm in a bad, bad relationship. Um, and I had to do many things to stay in the present moment. Um, so I wouldn't disassociate because I would put me in some bad places, maybe it was a bad, you know, some of the bad calls have had with the fire service or the tech rescue team.

[00:35:32] Um, scent is very important, really important sent to me. Um, one of them is, uh, when I came back in 2009, I climbed, um, which mountain without, uh, every movie. And I remember that mark Celese who passed away this Artek, he was there with his team. So we were trying to meet him at the top, race him to the top we got there, but I remember lavender the smell of lavender and it was in the, um, it was in the, uh, uh, Heather Heather, that was up in the Alpine.

[00:36:02] And we went up to about 8,000 feet and we did when we did our trip didn't summit, but that's that smell stayed with me, Travis lavender. So one of the things I had to do was a bought this organic bar of lavender soap and I'd keep it in the car. And, um, that would kind of ground me and keep me in the present, um, to the point now I can, I can catch myself disassociate, disassociate, and I'm very aware of it.

[00:36:28] Um, and, uh, bring myself back often what I do now, I, I just have like talk shows like CBC, BBC. I listened to podcasts. I tried to introduce Dean to some podcasts today. Um, but we're better chatting. Let's listen to music, but you know that the far end of, of, uh, being in the present moment, um, what I like about the mountains is that it forces me in there.

[00:36:53] I remember we climbed, um, Steph and I climbed. Chilliwack peak, that's a 28 pitches or something. Awesome. 

[00:37:02] Travis Bader: I've only gone so far on that one, but that's definitely 

[00:37:04] Jason Budd: was a highlight. And we did a few year. We had to, we camped on the backside. We planned, we, we camped up at Pella card cause that airplane crashed into the sixties and all the parts get brought in to this car.

[00:37:14] And, and we camped below it climbed the whole, the whole thing in one day and got in the backside. But on the driver, I had a Tacoma at the time and, and um, we're driving this really rough road and I, it was hot. It was dusty and to the climb and I'm driving down the road and we hit this Washoe of full tilt and the front end goes up, comes down, bang.

[00:37:37] And I Steph looked at me and I looked at her and I said, Def I wasn't here. I was in a land Rover in Helmand province, driving down the road. Like I actually wasn't in my Tacoma with Steph after Clemis Alessi, Iowa. In Garmsir district coming out from the gun line, down into our fob, for example, and what I, and what woke me up was hitting that.

[00:38:02] So that's how significant my disassociation was. Right, right. So, uh, that's why being in the mountains, for example, forces me to be in the present moment and I love it being in the present. Right. And there's lots of things you can, you can keep yourself there too. Right. Smells, sights, um, positive reinforcement, you know, use 

[00:38:25] Travis Bader: indeed.

[00:38:26] You've you're into running as well. Aren't you 

[00:38:29] Dean Nugent: ultra running. Yeah. It's similar to Jason when I, um, when I. My father died 2014. I was out, I was out here, but he had throat cancer. Um, and then I come out, I'd done the climb in and everything. And it was like, I need to find something I need similar to Jason.

[00:38:49] It wasn't about saving me. It was about, I need to do something for me. I don't feel like fit anywhere. I've come out now I've done a few little jobs. What am I doing? Where is my next move? What, you know, w what's life got in for me? So then I went online, typed in adventure race and the Squamish 50, 50 come up.

[00:39:12] And I was like, what the, how really? So I watched this video by the ginger runner and, um, and I remember the, when they, it was on and Jason said to me, he says, oh, we're going to get out of town. The zombies are coming in. And I was like, what? He says, it's a festival or something going on. Um, so we, we went our town, but it was the 50 50.

[00:39:31] So I watched this video and then straight after I went onto the website and I went. And I booked the 50, 50, not just the 25 K the 50 miles the first day, then the 50 K the second day. Not having run since I was in the army. So now I'm sat here beyond this computer in. I need to run, I need to get out running.

[00:39:52] So I just started with 5k 10 K half marathon marathon. And then I got in with, um, some folks down in Dom or called pure trail and they run a running events. Um, and then on a Wednesday they had a group Bunin. So if I was down in that area, cause I've got family in Plymouth, I would then go meet him on the mall, go running with them.

[00:40:13] Um, and then I done. Plymouth Plymouth, um, marathon, which has done a bike track then up the bike track. But it's a real nice down through the Hills and old way recheck. So I started making friends and they'd be like, oh, we're running this one. And this one, so was like, oh, meet up. And you get you can't you get your tent out, you fire in the nighttime, you sit talking about the race and then you'd go off.

[00:40:35] The thing about ultra running is it was a couple of things. So it was seeing the things and the journey as you run. And a lot of people think when you say ultra running, it's like what you run for 16 hours? No, it took me 16 hours to cover 70 miles, but there were eight stations along that way. So you start, you have a bite to eat.

[00:41:00] If you need to, you have five, 10 minutes. If you've got a crew, like at Squamish 50 50, I had, um, Jason and Dan SL friend. Um, and they give you that bit of a push because there's sometimes when you're on that trail, Why am I doing this? Why did I book this? And you question, not just your ability, but you question yourself.

[00:41:23] It's can I do this? What am I thinking? I'll be easier if I just get off now and finish. Just, I say, I shouldn't be here. Look at these other people. Right. But we've trail running. Everybody has a story on that trail. They're not running because they just love running. They have a story that's brought them to trail running and the ultra Mao, the ultra orphan scene.

[00:41:44] Um, and then the ones that are good at it. Fantastic. And they, but they still got time for you. So I remember 2016 when I, I run the first time, uh, Dakota Jones is a big time runner and he came and he won the man's right. The men's race. Um, but I was stood there talking to him and he's a young lad still, but he, they have the time they live in.

[00:42:08] They haven't got big houses. They just they're in vans and they love running and they love, they're passionate about what they do. Sounds like this is brilliant. So like yourself, I popped back. I stopped buying all the kit. I'm brilliant. I need this. I need that. Right. Quite what's he wearing? Right. I need to behave them.

[00:42:26] And it's like, oh, they're wearing them shoes. And he's like, you don't, 

[00:42:29] Travis Bader: you don't need it any, you never really 

[00:42:31] Dean Nugent: do. Don't need it. You could just put a pair of dApps on that work. All right. For you, you could go out with some tiny shorts on and a cotton t-shirt yeah. I don't need the top brand or, you know, the running vests and all that.

[00:42:44] The, the data there's certain races where you have to have certain stuff like a, you know, a warm blanket, you know, hydration, food or whistle, you know, uh, if you get lost, but it was just that pureness of just running in nature. Like gave me that sense of belonging. I'd found my peer group along with climbing.

[00:43:08] It was ultra running. So now when I have my moments, I put on a pair of trainers, I get out the door because the endorphin spike, because I'm doing exercise and then I felt fantastic about it. And I'm like, yes, brilliant. And that's the thing with the ultra is it's a, it's a very long spike when you do so.

[00:43:35] The biggest race I've done with 70 miles in 16 hours, uh, and when you've run that, and then you stop and you've been running with other people, you just did. We just do that. And sometimes I say, Jason pushes me when we're climbing. And I thank him for it. He's like, right. We'll do like most of this last trip down the scar was about technique turning and hips and all this.

[00:44:01] And I'm like, I'm not dancing, Jason. It's like, yeah. But if you do this watch and then was like, and then you do it. And it's like, I've just reached two inches higher. There's a, there's a ledge there. I've just been dancing like a Turkey on this ledge for 20 minutes trying to work it out. And Jason's like, yeah, there's no point dancing.

[00:44:20] You need to get up there. I 

[00:44:24] Jason Budd: forgot. So one of our goals or trave is, um, our goal is on, we're gonna hit up to Marvel. Okay. And there's a 20 pitch climb. They're called the goat. Okay. So what's what we call each other. The goat by made the goat goat greatest of all time. And we actually started our first climbing trip up there.

[00:44:45] And we, I was building resume to be a rock guide. And we, uh, we had a moment on the rock where I'm pushing it. Dean's at his complete comfort zone and we had a good heart to heart. And then it had the dial up, back and everything. But I would love to go back now on Wednesday, go up there. And it's only 20 pitches.

[00:45:08] The highest is five nine, but I would love to be able to bring Dean back to that where we started and this, this, this route wasn't in there. When we first went there, it's a bolted 20 pitch Alpine climb. So that's why I've been really focusing on the technique with him because I'd like to get him on the goat before 

[00:45:29] Dean Nugent: he goes back.

[00:45:30] I'm ready. Yeah. This is so ma um, marble canyon was when we had pulled in to, to set up component thing. And there was this young lady and a partner from down in America and she she's talking away and I said, oh, he's a climber. Like, this is my first time out. So, oh, Jason's a climber. She says, have you climbed?

[00:45:50] I said, I've done a lot of bins in Squamish on the Bluffs. And I said, yeah. So I've done a little bit of climbing. She goes, you're a climber then. Right. I was like, yeah, I guess I am then. Yeah. But he's because you look at somebody at a level and you think, well, nothing like that, but you're, doesn't, it's not about the level.

[00:46:09] If you participate in that and that then becomes your passion, that's what you are. Or like, that doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if I, he Clem's better than me. It's about taking part and that, yeah, I got up on the rock and I climbed, 

[00:46:24] Jason Budd: I mean, like you're a runner. Yeah. Other than that, the winner of the 

[00:46:27] Dean Nugent: 50 there, but not the today.

[00:46:30] Yeah, I've still got to come back. So there's um, so the Squamish 50 feet I've entered twice, but I've never done the second day. Okay. So I've woke up with aches and my head's telling me I'm injured. I've got blisters on my feet and everything else that I can't get from that bed to the start line and start walking on the next day.

[00:46:53] Travis Bader: Cause the header cause of feet and legs. And I 

[00:46:55] Dean Nugent: think it's all of it. Yeah. But my head gets the better part of me. And then that's that right? Yeah. You could you're out your 

[00:47:04] Jason Budd: league meet, but to be fair to him that one time he had Gortex runners, you had Gortex runners. Oh, it was hot. I remember it was the heat wave.

[00:47:13] I said August the first one and then, uh, he'd come around and he, and Dennis and I are at the point and he's like, it was awesome, mate. I sat in this Creek to cool off and I'm like, oh no. So his Gore-Tex runner. Or soaked. So I think had we'd switch, get a shoes, your feet, but that totally Hambergard his feet about halfway along.

[00:47:37] I think if we had switched out runners and stuff and you weren't in the Gore-Tex shoes. So that definitely, yeah, that was, yeah, but the Creek must've 

[00:47:45] Dean Nugent: felt great. It was fantastic, mate. I like to burn in there's a part on 

[00:47:49] Jason Budd: IVIG next time. Do it. So your feeder. Yeah. 

[00:47:53] Dean Nugent: Well, there's a part it's I can't remember what it's called the escalator part and it goes up me, me and Jason record it, but it goes up for like over a mile, maybe a little bit more.

[00:48:02] Um, and by the time you get up into the clouds in the mountain, it's like, God, that's all. So my legs were like solid and pumping. Right. And I saw this Creek. I was like, I'm getting in that definitely that's me. When Hoffie you go? So I'm sat in it. I'm like, oh, upstairs. That's fantastic. Right. I better get on running.

[00:48:19] So as you're running. My feet are burning on the feet, but it's been in the war. It's like, because you just rubbing and I'm coming down and they're all mountain bike tracks. It's not a road, a trail, it's a mounted bike. So you're bouncing off rock. And of course, then I didn't really know how to run properly.

[00:48:38] It's crazy people. You're like you run properly. Yeah. There's a way to run down Hills mate. You know, if you put your arms out and balance and then let your legs go, you go. So what that helps is stops you pushing as you're running down the hill. If you're. Doing that your knees doing your knees doing this.

[00:48:57] Right. But if you kick your legs out and go with the hell exactly. As if somebody was on a mountain bike going down, if there's a burn goes that way, you go that way, but you keep your hands out and use it as balance. So when people see all these big runners coming down and they've got cuts all over they've tumbled because they've let their self go rather than slowing down, which then puts that on the joint, on the knees, go with the flow.

[00:49:23] So the first year I'm like, oh, step, step. Oh, right. I was like my niece mate. I can't, yeah, this is so in. Whereas the second year, and I took an hour off the second year. That's time. Yeah. So the first year was 14 hours for 30. And then the second was 13 hours 30 something. And I was like, I come in and I was like looking at a clock and I said, I've took an hour.

[00:49:45] You would have thought I won the whole thing. I started shopping. I'm looking at Jason and Chris slur. I've took an hour off, look at that time. And he's like, yeah, but you got another day to go. Oh yeah. I'm going to just push that a little bit. Yeah. To OD. 

[00:49:59] Jason Budd: So the 50, I don't know, Travis piggy dove. It's one of the robust races because of the Hills and the trails.

[00:50:05] Travis Bader: Okay. I haven't done it. I've been in the area and I've seen people who've done it. That's. Yeah. 

[00:50:12] Jason Budd: So I, I did go through a phase. I, uh, about 2016 for me. It's it's we call it the hump season. So between the rock and the ski season. So October, November is my worst season. Put weight on maybe too much beer or whatever.

[00:50:27] In September, I told Dina, I'm going to run the 50 K with you the next day. That was my plan. I remember this. Yeah. So I started trail running. I was up to about 30 K. This is where 

[00:50:37] Travis Bader: you ran into the bear as well. I remember though, 

[00:50:38] Jason Budd: that was training training. I, I was running, maybe I went, you know, over two, three months, I got myself up to about 30 K maximum.

[00:50:49] And then one day, one day my hamstring spasms, knee pain. And that was me done. That's it not worth it. That was enrolled in, but I just think I did maybe too much over that time. And that three months training for it. Loving you. You did. Yeah, but I, that was my goal was to get him on the 50 K line the next day and run it with them, but it just never worked out.

[00:51:12] And now I actually be honest on having hand issue, maybe a volunteer, 

[00:51:17] Dean Nugent: but yeah. Cause let's figure it out. We could do it next 

[00:51:19] Jason Budd: year. Yeah, no, I got to do my Alpine guide. Exactly. Okay. But, um, So 

[00:51:25] Travis Bader: I, I got two different questions here. One, one's an observation. I remember, uh, you, me, Dennis were out in, um, what was it?

[00:51:36] Was it Mount beautiful? Do you remember that long time ago? And someone says, Travis got to try these Danner boots out there the best. And that, that was a mistake. Never trust somebody when they say these boots are the best, maybe for them, right? Maybe these socks are great for you. Everyone's built a little bit differently.

[00:51:55] Anyways, my boots are just full of blood by the end of that one. But I remember you were recently back off of doing. SAS selection. And I'm thinking, you know, I can't complain like I did this guy is going to be just a machine out there and I got to keep going. But one thing that really surprised me was, uh, you kept a steady pace, not necessarily a breakneck fast pace, but the pace was just constant.

[00:52:27] And any time Dennis, Dennis was like, oh, I got a rock in the boot. Like Dennis, stop sort yourself out, administer your boots, then get up and let's get going again. And it was a very different mentality than what I'd ever kind of allowed myself to have in the past. I was always like, well, if you're, if you're hurt, you just keep going.

[00:52:44] If, um, if you're wet, just keep plugging through, just go faster. If you're cold, you'll warm up. Um, But the amount of distance set on subsequent trips that we'd go out on that we're able to cover comfortably in a short period of time, by just taking that approach of a reasonable pace, sorting yourself out, fuel yourself up when you need it, take care of the feet when you need it.

[00:53:09] Uh, so that, that was my, um, sort of observation. And that was one of the big things I learned from you and how to be able to, uh, push yourself further than you figured you're able to go is by making sure that you take care of all of those little things in a progressive way. So that's my observation, the question I have though, and I'll pose it to both of you.

[00:53:32] So Dean ultra running, and you get to that point and you're like, what the hell am I doing? My feet hurt. My legs hurt. It's cold. I'm tired. How do you push through that? 

[00:53:45] Dean Nugent: When you've got about four miles to go to the finish line? It's easier to keep going and finish and get over that line than it is to turn around and walk the miles you've just done.

[00:53:55] Okay. And it's that mindset? Yeah. 

[00:53:59] Jason Budd: Crack on. That's also the beginning too. I think the first few miles is the artist too. Where's your body's going 

[00:54:05] Dean Nugent: on by doing this until, until you warm up until you get going in that engines and right. It's in that cycle and it's like, yeah, you got this, the body's doing that.

[00:54:15] But then the head kicks in, right. It wants to do different to what your body's doing. Right. So to push through that, I think it's, it's, it's the same. I take it from the same sort of mentality when I was in, in the forces. When you take a position, you push through that position. So you take it, you've got your goal.

[00:54:40] Now you push on because there's another goal. If we stopped short. You're in a killing area or beans, or you've got to keep going. Even if my leg I've got a crew, I've got a walk. And that was the thing free training is you'd always have a wagon behind you. It's called the chuckwagon or the ambulance. Yeah.

[00:55:03] So if you in, so you get a lot of people, I can't do this, get on the wagon. So there's always something behind you that would, you could go, oh, I can't do this. I can get on that wagon. It's warm. Get a coffee and they'll carry on. Go in. Don't have that. When you're running, right. You've got finish. 

[00:55:22] Travis Bader: Jason, how do you get through it?

[00:55:26] Jason Budd: I remember I was talking about it on the first podcast. Okay about that day. And, and it's interesting now, um, like I said, it's a ski guide, like black home, everyone goes out the back gate and the other go to east call or they go to guides notch, and it's a rat race and they follow the same track and it's icy and everything else.

[00:55:45] I usually put my own up track in now. And the perfect guide pace is 11 degrees trail. Yeah. That's the most efficient output that you can climb out to be efficiency without burning out. The other track that goes straight up called the Revy tracks, Revelstoke tracks way that they go straight up. I really love putting in this 11 degree truck and it's longer, but you cover more kilometers over all through the day, but then you start passing everybody and you're not tired and you see them cause they just do these op rests.

[00:56:15] They go straight up. Then they arrest and the rest. Right. So, um, what draws me to this trout for me is. I am drawn to adversity. Mm. I remember being said, um, I'll use bracket senior Brechin and I think I talked about it where we're leading, we're heading out for an exercise and my Bergen weighs so much that I have to sit on the parade square and roll over onto my knees to stand up, get to get on the truck.

[00:56:56] We're going to do a 16 kilometer, uh, surgeon dabber dot goal announced the battle. And, um, I remember that thinking that not a lot of people that are doing this, I forget reasoning. Sure. Right. But I was drawn to doing stuff that most people don't want to do or can't do Y for me, um, it's coming back to that diversity, like it really comes down to, um, Challenging myself.

[00:57:26] So, uh, the self efficiency, finding ways, like, for example, teaching Dean now, like when Dean came 2014, I wasn't that good of a climber either. I couldn't really coach him because I was in that good of a climber. But now I can do, to say it's more efficient and less effort to do this. The Twistlock for example, versus doing a pull-up the whole way up.

[00:57:51] So it's that self-sufficiency finding what is the most efficient way to do, um, and carried out, um, you know, like the grit. So it's interesting when you think about what drives people. So we should do a podcast one day about my accident, Spain, where I fell, broke my back, my foot, my wrist, and my ribs. 

[00:58:15] Travis Bader: We can talk about it right 

[00:58:16] Jason Budd: now.

[00:58:16] Well, I think it's a podcast in its own, but long story short, I. What's going to repel to the ground, but add my friend, Lord me. Cause I remember how much, when you do that tandem rescue repelled together, how much movement I had and it was better for my back. Right. He lowered me right away. I had to down climb and scramble out and walk two, three kilometers while he got the car.

[00:58:37] Um, when I was Squamish SAR, search and rescue, I remember having to carry a patient off with a broken toe and we carried her down all the way from peak three or two Lord and carried her down. So everyone has different levels, right. People just, um, throw it in others rise to that occasion. Right. So for me, it's that challenge in the university that drives me to that next level.

[00:59:09] And then I think like Dean's alluded to a lot of it. Um, yeah, that personal growth, right? There's that growth of. In yourself like that trust, but also, um, what your limits are knowing when's enough enough or do I have more in myself or maybe if I was more efficient, I could push myself to that next level right.

[00:59:32] In that versus hitting it like a bull full on. Right. So, um, yeah, for me, it's that 

[00:59:40] Travis Bader: knowing your limits, you know, when I was a teenager, all these, no fear t-shirts were really big. You remember those? And I always thought I want to make a t-shirt. I bet you it'd be a hot seller. It says, know your limits, but N oh, your limits.

[00:59:54] Yeah. I've never seen anyone do that. Maybe by now someone has, but maybe we have something you your limits, right. Say no to your limits. Yeah. Um, 

[01:00:03] Jason Budd: but there's ways you can affect that too. Like training fitness, like. I know. Um, so I'm coming off ski season and I didn't I'm I'm, I'm very objective based. So ski guide was my, my ski guide exam in March was priority.

[01:00:21] I knew I have rock and open coming up. I didn't really tick over in the gym. I'm just like ski, ski, ski, ski now. Rock season started say a month ago. And Steph and I went out climbing and I was like, oh my goodness. I need to get back in the gym. And just within a month climbing what routes that were shutting me down, uh, with Steph Dean.

[01:00:42] And I just on-site to them, I guess it'd be a red point cause I've climbed to find them before. Sure. But I was just like climb. One of them backed down and went straight on the other one where I had to work them with Steph. So that's only a month of just doing the baseline. You flushed them, the distinct training in the gym, not climbing base, just strength, like squats, dead lifts, bench, brows, bent over row pull-ups and what that month of training does mean.

[01:01:09] Travis Bader: Um, and I find, you know, with the podcasts, you get all different people, emailing and contacting and DM-ing and all whole different bags. And one thing that seems to be coming up over and over again is this whole mental health thing. And I'm learning a whole bunch about mental health in the process, and everyone's gotten mental health problems to some degree or another.

[01:01:32] When you're talking about the woman who's got the stubbed toe or the broken toe and carried her down, you know, maybe that was incapacitating for her. Who are we? The judge? Right. Everyone's got different, different levels. And you know, oftentimes people get competitive in the, uh, well, you've got mental health.

[01:01:48] What, w what'd you go through, what are your, ah, I've been through worse, then they've done studies. They've done studies that show how like mothers have lost their children and the brainwaves and what the brain looks like. And the other trauma affects them and people who don't have that experience, but they have the exact same trauma or brain waves in their head as if somebody had something that was.

[01:02:13] Arguably more, um, impactful or traumatic by, by most people looking out, um, everybody's going to have a different perspective on things on the, on the mental health side. Everyone's got a different levels. I know in past podcasts, we talked about the guy who got PTSD from eating a chocolate bar. Have you eaten?

[01:02:33] Have you heard this one? So this guy goes in and a convenience store buys a chocolate bar eats. Half of it looks down like a scarf in this thing. And it's got maggots in this thing. It's disgusting, right? Tells the clerk. Clerk says, sorry, sorry, sorry. Here's a refund. You can have a free bar if you want right on.

[01:02:50] He goes, but then the guy goes home and he starts thinking about eating chocolate bars with maggots. And he asked her to have a nightmares that would eat and maggots in his, in his food. And then he can't go to church anymore because he figures they're all going to laugh at him for eating the chocolate bar with and maggots and.

[01:03:07] Exhibiting avoidance tendencies and recurring thoughts and all of these things that are typically associated with, with PTSD, from, from eating a chocolate bar, Meg, it's something that I don't know, all three of us would probably have done at some point and thought nothing else of right. Trauma 

[01:03:23] Dean Nugent: to hit me.

[01:03:23] Isn't 

[01:03:24] Travis Bader: it? Yeah, that's right. And that's the interesting thing I find I am. It's going to circle back to like, how do you push through? But, um, that's the interesting thing of that I find when we talk about mental health, is it really doesn't matter at what place you are in Fortune's wheel and what rung you are on the latter of it.

[01:03:48] It's it seems to be the acceptance of those around you, that support network, right? If it's viewed as a socially unacceptable thing, then, uh, perhaps your own perception of it is going to be worse and, uh, An absolutely natural event that happens everybody. Yet. People stigmatize it as if it's, it's like, if you got cut and you're bleeding, people would say, put a bandaid on that thing.

[01:04:15] Or, jeez, that looks deep as stitch it up in a couple of weeks. You'll be good to go. We'll take those stitches out. There's a process in place when it comes to mental health. Um, I, I still think we're far ways away from people having that level of understanding as to, uh, to how to deal with it or just accepting it.

[01:04:34] Dean Nugent: Okay. I think we've, that is in the old days it was a taboo. Sure. Yeah. So, so mental health was like, you're a nut job. Men don't have mental health problems. You're strong. You're the alpha you're Garver. You go to work, you come home and then you do the home stuff. So I think for a very long time, There was that taboo about talking about your feelings?

[01:05:02] A lot of the programs on TV, social media wasn't around that, but a lot of the programs on TV, like the Ateam Airwolf there's these male figures that are saving people's lives. So as a child, you're sitting there, you're watching that. And it's like, that's what a man is, you know, he gets shot, but he's not crying falls over.

[01:05:22] He's not crying, you know, that helping people know he's strong, like the Hulk. Yeah. So we had a lot of these images and, you know, programs that we used to watch where we didn't have that. And, um, whereas now we sit here and we can talk about mental health. There's other podcasts there's people talk about, but I agree with you that isn't there still isn't enough because it comes down to like people getting help comes down to.

[01:05:54] Where's the money for the mental health, because they'll go while we've got these other things we need to deal with first, but you, you can't, mental health should be one of the priorities, right? 

[01:06:06] Jason Budd: Because 

[01:06:07] Dean Nugent: if, if we you'll never solve it. So, but for me that I'm not talking about everybody and for Chris, you know, I've helped Chris, our friend for a long time.

[01:06:16] It's about managing it. When, you know, you have this PTSD or anxiety or depression, and if it gets like it's about managing that, you'd always have it. It doesn't go away. It's there. We just now need to learn how to manage it, whether it's ultra running or it's being in the mountains, climbing for Jason and doing his guidance, you know, so the taboo in the old days is what we need to wash out.

[01:06:45] And the mental health is it's not somebody in a white jacket is getting taken away. It's this. I've had a bad day yesterday, but we'll talk about it. And I had a moment. We are going to be open. Yeah. I had a moment with Jason than it scar. We were climbing. Um, I think it was a 5, 5, 8, 5, 9.

[01:07:10] Jason Budd: Was it mother superior? 

[01:07:12] Dean Nugent: I think it might've been, and I got on it and I got to this point and the head slipped in. You can't do this, what you're doing. And I'm looking at it. If I can't see the hold, can't see it. What, what am I doing? Come all the way out to Canada. I'm making a fool of myself. What, what am I doing?

[01:07:33] You said something, didn't you and I, and I think I, I found it and I got up and then I come down, but I come down and he just looked at me and I just sat there and I was just staring out. He says, you are. Just like, I just started crying. I don't know why. I just, I just had this moment where it was like, I wasn't happy with what I did up there or something, or my head turned around and said to me, get down this isn't, you shouldn't be doing this.

[01:08:03] You know, this is a five, nine or five or what, you know, the hold is an air. You can't see it. Just, just get down. You're trying to live somebody else's life or something. I just sat there. And, uh, and he's just like, he says, no, take your time. Sure. He says, sorry, I'll just talk the rope out and everything take your time.

[01:08:21] You know? And I just, I just sat there and I'm like, I don't know why I'm crying. I've got nothing to cry about. I'm not full balling, but I've got tears running down my eyes. And I'm like, what, why I got overcome with the moment? 

[01:08:36] Travis Bader: Interesting. I've got nothing to cry about. It's um, if someone's feeling that way.

[01:08:44] They have something when they cry for a reason, there's, there's a reason for it. Right. And it's, um, it kind of reminds me years ago, argument with my wife, we're talking, I don't even know what it was. Right. And, uh, like how Kate you see you're wrong. Right. Like even like in my head, like I could fix this and like the typical meal here's this and here's why, and blah, blah, blah.

[01:09:06] And she's like, you know what you're right. But it doesn't change. It doesn't change the way I feel. Right. Yeah. It's like, huh. And it was the first time I ever looked at it and I thought, well, yeah. Okay. Well, I guess then we address why you feel that way. And maybe there's, there's more to look at it. And when it comes to the stigma associated with mental health, You know, I, I see both sides, the one side, the 18, the Hulk, you gotta be strong and you got to push through and he never have a problem.

[01:09:37] And the other side, um, is, uh, delving too far into it. And then identifying with that and say, well, I'm, I'm Bob with PTSD. I'm I'm Joe with whatever it might be. And that becomes your label and your crutch that you always fall back on. And I think the more that you, cause he'd never say I'm Bob with the foot injury.

[01:09:59] I hate, uh, you'd say, yeah, I had a foot injury. If it comes up from time to time, I could still feel it, but here's so here's what I do to manage it. Um, and you don't identify as that. And I, and I think that's a, I think that's a key part for people and being able to deal with it is surround themselves with others who can accept just like Jason earlier.

[01:10:19] I get it. Whatever let's work through will, whatever the reason might be. And, uh, let's plug on. We still got a job to do. We still got things to do. Yeah. The mindset is not succumbing to feel illness and thinking like, this is all too overwhelming. It's like, okay, this is, this is a natural part of the process.

[01:10:40] Dean Nugent: Oh, go up the next one. Well, and that's what 

[01:10:43] Jason Budd: I talk about. Like if I'm, if my mental health is suffering and I realize I don't have the capacity for it, I just bring the grades back or I top rope, or I have Steph rope gun and I'm second. And cause that is for me working through it because knowing that my resilience, so we call it your window of tolerance.

[01:11:04] Okay. Your window of tolerance has narrowed. Right? So things for me like hunger, lack of sleep, um, anger, whatever they can just contributing factors for a window of tolerance. Say for example, um, Like commuting, Squamish, Vancouver, and all of a sudden you're getting road rage, for example, because your window of tolerance is so limited, right.

[01:11:27] Things that affect it. So for me, um, knowing that my window of tolerance is limited, I still want to go out. I still want to climb. I just dial it back. So that's humbling for me because I would still push that in the past. But now I just dial it back and go. I'm just in the present. I'm in the moment and it's good to be here.

[01:11:49] Travis Bader: Yeah. Because the altered alternative to that is you just don't go out. Yes. And then that perpetuates itself and it's a compounding issue. There is a, um, uh, there's a fellow, he's a past podcast. Guests didn't know I was talking to him on Christmas day and he says, we're texting back and forth. And he said, well, how are you doing?

[01:12:15] And he's like, oh, not too good. What's going on? He says, one of. One of the people that follows him on social media, uh, decided to, uh, try and take his own life. They're going to see how he's doing and how he's making out. And I shot himself, shot himself in the, in the head. And, uh, I guess under the chin and, uh, uh, this fellow end up surviving, um, Canadian forces sniper, I believe it was, uh, this fellow now, uh, the fellow who shot himself, he's very open about it.

[01:12:48] And he was on social media. He says, you know, in the back of my head, I just, right before I pulled the trigger, I heard this voice. This has changed the angle. And he did, he did slightly change the angle and he looks like he's lost his eye and has a hard time talking. Now he's surviving says, you know, the second he pulled the tree.

[01:13:08] Immediately regretted it. And he's trying to self-rescue and he's calling up nine 11. He spitting out teeth and trying to coordinate on his location. And, uh, he says the best thing that I could tell anybody is, you know, just stop reassess. You will regret it. Um, now looking at how that impacts other people.

[01:13:34] I think Jordan, Peter says, sin says never underestimate the whole. Your absence will leave in other people's lives. Um, the individual who I was a past podcast guest with, uh, does a weekly mental health walks. We just get out into the woods. They get out into a park. It's not a race, the guys Uber fit. Uh, but it's just everyone.

[01:13:59] Come on up. We'll have a little bit of a, a chat ahead of time. We'd go for a walk. And there's a, uh, there is. It's interesting. Looking at how people being able to share their stories, just like this, uh, reaches others and can affect a positive change that has ripples that go go well beyond them. So I 

[01:14:21] Dean Nugent: belonging.

[01:14:24] If you look at it, all, it all comes down to belonging. I agree into a point it's like, you know, this opportunity is here because you know, we're friends and, but we like to be being in that circle. You know, if I didn't want, like we didn't get oh, and I would be like, Hey, chase, you go do that. He's like, but this guy does stuff that I like following him.

[01:14:45] And, you know, it's that sort of stuff. And it's the same with your man's there. Say, Mike, let's go for a run or a walk. It's just a walk. We'll talk. But it w it sat now, oh, belonging to something. That's a walking group with people. That share the similar sort of issues may be, or somebody where somebody lives, but they now belong to something.

[01:15:07] Jason belongs to a community and a very small one by the time he's finished and he's got every qualifications go in. It's like a real small one, but he belongs to a community. I belong. Yeah. I dabble in a couple of communities, but I belong to a community. I have, I have, for me, I have a reason to keep going forward.

[01:15:29] Not just my son, you know, uh, um, while both my boys, um, it's for me, you got to have something for yourself as well. You know, when you've got children, they're your priorities. But when it's you as an individual, if you're not running or working at, at that maximum or at that level where it's good for you.

[01:15:50] That affects behind you. So if it means I have to go out for a walk with this guy in this group, I now belong to this group and I feel a bit better about myself because I'm having conversations and chats. Like we are now like our walk area and I'll walk on tippy toes to speak. Sure. Because it felt good to sit here and have that conversation.

[01:16:11] We've like, it's guys, you know, we wouldn't do this normally in the old days and or publicly like, yeah. Yeah. And, and that's that it's belonging to community. So when people start, you know, getting in contact with you on, on social media, Hey, you know, this podcast, blah, blah, blah. It was brilliant. I like this guy.

[01:16:29] Cause he touched on that, but they belong to your podcast and your community. We all belong to something. And it's that we've mental health. If I, if we can people belong here, I don't want people to take their lives as hard as it gets. Everybody has a reason for being on this planet. You've just not found it yet.

[01:16:55] Or you're just not with the right tribe or group where you belong. 

[01:17:00] Travis Bader: And that level of belonging, it reminds me of, um, crocodile Dundee when they're talking about, uh, a shrink and, uh, I think they're in New York and shrink what Sarah psychiatrist, what do they do? Oh, you know, you pay them money, you sit down, they tell them their problems and they help you through it.

[01:17:16] And you'd see them every week or, or whatever it is. Right. Don't you have anything like that? And in where is he from walkabout Creek? And he says, oh no, we got, I forget the guy's name, Bruce, the bartender. He'd tell Bruce your problems. Bruce tells everybody else. No more problem he's passed on. But that level of understanding shared understanding so much.

[01:17:37] So often people just get it in their head and they're carrying it all by themselves. And that level of belonging that you talk about, whether it's with the, the mountain groups or the marathon runners or whatever it might be, uh, is bigger than you. And it allows, I, I was asked to do a talk and I'm still debating whether I'll do it or not.

[01:18:02] And I've just kinda been thinking of the back of my head about, um, uh, what I'll talk on. But I essentially it's, it's along the lines of mental health, um, that they've they've asked for. And, uh, w one of the concepts that I was thinking of everyone says, oh, you got to work on yourself, right? You got to take care of yourself.

[01:18:22] You've got to work on yourself and you can't help others until you help yourself. And I think, well, yes, to a degree, but quite often the one thing that's going to help you more than anything else is being of service to others. In some small degree or another being able to help others will bring you. A level of value that you might not be able to find if all you're doing is concentrating on yourself and your own issues.

[01:18:50] Um, I haven't got that one dialed in yet, but I'd be interested to hear what your guys' thoughts 

[01:18:55] Jason Budd: are. Well, you know, drive, um, I've, uh, worked the last few years at heli ski guide and a mechanized cat guide. And, um, I struggled with what my role was. I'm like, why am I doing this? Like, I understand the touring ski guide and you're in the moment and you're taking a group out.

[01:19:17] Um, but the heli ski guiding, I'm just like what? This is kind of, how am I helping these people? This is, these are even smaller than the 1%, right? What am I trying to get out of this? Like, how can I maybe help facilitate. Them. And, uh, I've a friend up in Whistler and, uh, he's a trauma counselor and I was chatting with him about it.

[01:19:43] And he said, Jay, like your connection you make, cause this is just a one day operation. This connection you make with these clients, you don't know what the role is. You don't know what they're, where they're coming from. You don't know where they're going. You don't know what they're going through, but that connection you make with them that day will influence and affect them positively or maybe negatively.

[01:20:06] Right. And I thought about that and I took away from that. And then, um, I think this one time we're waiting to get picked up for the hell. And I was connecting with this gentleman from Australia of all things. And I was telling them, you know, like my journey from the military, the fire service, working in adventure therapy with Delaware bound veterans, maybe looking at my own program for first responders, um, where my journey's taken me and that, and the connection I had and it hits something.

[01:20:35] I think I exchanged details with him and I got an email from them. Maybe six months later, they judge that day we spent together was phenomenal. Um, I wasn't doing that well, uh, but just to let you know, like I'm a CEO of a company that has over 300 employees and that day we spent was able for me to go back, maybe get the help he needed, but he's able to keep going, keep everyone employed, keep the company going.

[01:21:03] Um, and that actually hit home for me like that one day, that one moment that connection with that individual, um, is purpose, right? And it could be that seven days in larger. It could be that one day, um, on a back country ski tour, or it could be, um, on a bus and we were talking about you. And I talked about that gentleman.

[01:21:28] You said where, you know, he, at the last minute said, um, aim off, you know, injury. And I said, it's interesting because you and I chatted just before that, I had watched something on YouTube, about a kid who took the bus to the, um, golden gate bridge. And he was crying on the bus and people were making fun of him.

[01:21:47] Not anyone checked in with them and said, what's going on, got off the bus and jumped off. And the moment he jumped, he's like, I made a mistake and he survived, but he was a mess. Right. But not a single person on the bus showed him any empathy, compassion, nobody checked in with them. So we don't know where this moment connection's going to be.

[01:22:07] You know, it could be that person on the bus. It could be, um, the client, it could be that, um, follow her an Instagram. Sure. Right. So you just don't know where it's coming or going. I agree.

[01:22:26] Travis Bader: Viktor Frankl. He was the father of modern logotherapy. You guys have heard of him? 

[01:22:32] Dean Nugent: No. If it's in a book, not 

[01:22:33] Travis Bader: me. Okay. He wrote a book called man's search for meaning. I think it 

[01:22:37] Jason Budd: was called. Just interrupt here though. I am. I'm so impressed with Travis is able to remember like the title, the phrase it is. I can get some stuff down, but Travis is just like author book and then boom.

[01:22:57] Travis Bader: Yeah. Have me remember a name right after I meet you. Come on. 

[01:23:00] Jason Budd: Yeah, 

[01:23:00] Dean Nugent: we have this chat in the, uh, in the truck coming up here. Okay. 

[01:23:06] Jason Budd: Yeah, but 

[01:23:06] Dean Nugent: books. Yeah. Books. You don't do no. All get. And then that's it never in my head. I'm just like, I can't carry on 

[01:23:13] Travis Bader: all life like that or 

[01:23:14] Dean Nugent: whole life, whole life like that.

[01:23:17] Where is it? Show me video. Yeah. Or do it and I'll do it or I'll remember it. 

[01:23:27] Travis Bader: See, I I'm very much a do it. You can show me, you can tell me you can. And until I do it, even as a kid, Travis, don't touch that stove. It's hot. Like how hot, like, what do you mean by hot? Let me see. Oh, that's what you mean by hot.

[01:23:42] Got it. Right. I remember as a kid, I stuck my hand into a, um, uh, an electric popcorn machine, but not a hot air, one, it heated up oil inside there. And you put your stuff in there. And I had, um, um, blusters all up and down my arms and apparently I'm surprised I don't have big scabby scars on my arms. I guess I'm gonna get healer, but, uh, I have always been that way.

[01:24:07] I have to do it myself. You can tell me till you're blue in the face. Right. Jay's could be like, okay, Travis, just your hand, hold like this pivot like that. And I actually have to do it myself before it'll ever sink in just dance like that. I guess 

[01:24:21] Dean Nugent: I wouldn't say dens. We've all got a little different capacity and we 

[01:24:25] Travis Bader: different.

[01:24:26] Exactly. Some people are at the front of the train, so people are at the back, but we're all moving along. Right. Um, but yeah, with the, uh, Viktor Frankl fellow, so atrocities concentration camps, he was in, uh, uh, need took it from an analytical perspective while everyone has families dying, his friends are dying, is surrounded by people.

[01:24:51] Who've got everything taken from them and some people can't even get out of bed. Some people are just beside themselves with grief and other people are using. Able to crack a joke or to find humor in odd little things. And he thinks like, how is it that we're all subjected to the exact same thing. And some people are affected so differently than others.

[01:25:14] And, you know, I think comes down to mental resiliency and past life experiences and where your mindset and what you can picture in that support group of what you think you have around whether real or imagined. Um, but he had that famous quote. The one thing you can't take from me is the way that I choose to respond to what you do to me.

[01:25:33] The last of life's great freedoms is one's ability to choose their own attitude in any given circumstance and being able to choose that attitude and knowing that that's a choice, right? And if I'm happy, that's a choice. If I'm mad, that's a choice. Like you can do something to me that could make me mad, but you that's me choosing to be mad understanding why you have that level of control.

[01:25:58] I think is. Incredibly powerful in being able to kind of deal with whether it's anxiety or depression or PTSD or whatever it might be. I think that's a very powerful part of it. Having that group, that support network, I think is like, what you're talking about there, Dean is incredibly powerful and he had one story of a, um, of a man who came in and, uh, his wife had passed away and he just didn't see any reason for living any longer and all the hardships that he was enduring.

[01:26:32] And he says, well, what if your wife had lived? Right. And you'd been the one who died in this situation, she'd be in during all of these hardships. Wouldn't she say, well, yeah, he says, well, then you've kind of saved her from all of that. Didn't you. And now you're carrying that. Uh, he talks about finding meaning in suffering and there, there is a level of meaning be by living for others or find finding that meaning either in suffering and it enjoy it in whatever it might be.

[01:27:05] And so I've been playing with that concept a little bit in the back of my head. And I mean, since we're talking openly here, I figured I'd just throw it out to see kind of what your thoughts from your life experiences were. If, if that's a, uh, 

[01:27:23] Jason Budd: he's looking 

[01:27:23] Dean Nugent: at me, don't say certain things, Dean, keep some of the things in the book and keep them closed and put under like under the little 

[01:27:32] Travis Bader: chair.

[01:27:33] Well didn't you guys have a chat or the way you Anna, but what was not allowed to be said? 

[01:27:38] Dean Nugent: Yeah, that's his nervous laugh because he thinks now I'm going to tell you, but we've had that shot. So I respect. 

[01:27:44] Jason Budd: We have quite well. I mean the British soldiers are, are an inch. Group. So there are certain things that are sets us apart, I would say from other armies.

[01:27:58] Sure. 

[01:27:59] Dean Nugent: So it's all sense of humor. Um, the battlefield is a horrible place and the, the British soldier will make a joke about it. But to anybody outside of that circle, they'll think really, but for them to operate and keep moving, they have to do something. They have to, if they would just sit there and compute, like, what have I just seen?

[01:28:26] What what's just happened, then we start to slow down. So it's like quick joke. Like let's get on an E and you, so, but we take that with. Forever mentality, laugh joke. And it's like, oh, do you see what he last night? Do you sit? See Dean was wearing a dress. Oh, he does that every weekend, you know, as a joke, but in the real world, it was like, why do you wear a dress every weekend?

[01:28:56] It's like, oh no, no, no, he's just, it was female. But why do you revert to address all the time? Right. Well, yeah. Why do 

[01:29:04] Jason Budd: you know what I mean? Why do you wear a dress? I wasn't aware of this. We're all inclusive. 

[01:29:10] Dean Nugent: Well, somebody left it when they stayed and they stayed one night. Um, so yeah, that, yeah, I've become a bit of a, because a bit of a joke.

[01:29:19] Yeah. But then you just sort of, you carry that on because everybody's laughing about it and that becomes the comedy moment all the time. 

[01:29:26] Travis Bader: You're talking about something in a way that's a little bit healthier than either not talking about it or getting down on 

[01:29:34] it. 

[01:29:35] Dean Nugent: Well, Well, we keep revert. Well, I keep reverting back to the time in the army, but when my, not my darkest moment, but there was some times where I'd stay in my room and drink because you don't talk about it to anybody.

[01:29:50] Because in the old days, a little bit of army, it was you work hard. You play hard. We go to war, we come home, we see our families. We go drink, you go down to the NAFI, you go to the Ms. And then you go downtown and he just would keep, keep repeating this cycle over and over and over and over again. So then if you have got an issue, you're not down the corporate mess, you're at your own home.

[01:30:13] You've got a bar downstairs in your cellar or in your room, in a block, and you're drinking with yourself and you're having your moments to yourself. And you're thinking if I go out there and start talking to somebody about this, they've got, they might have their own problem, or they're going to laugh at me.

[01:30:31] It's like, I've got men under me that I need to be in command of. Can't go and talk to any of them. But if I go talk to the above me, are they going to think I'm weak? Right. So I can't talk to them. So what do I do? I just sit there and get drunk, wake up next morning. Hmm. Keep it in. But the stories that we could tell about our adventures, um, some of them have to be kept under the, and in the box.

[01:31:04] Cause Jason will never allow me to come back to Canada. I would never be able to climb again. He would never talk to me again. Uh, but Jason, feel free to share any of mine. Um, 

[01:31:17] Jason Budd: my, my granddad on my mom's side was in there all kinda air grow cane air force, world war two. And he was a crew chief or flight engineer on a Lancaster bomber.

[01:31:28] And, uh, he got wounded to. Flack or shrapnel. And, but I remember my mother telling me that Christmases were horrible, that you grew up in, and there was three sisters and two brothers and the brothers were younger and one wasn't born at the time. And my mom had nothing good to say about her, her life growing up and her, um, family.

[01:31:51] Right. It wasn't until I started struggling with my mental health coming out, maybe Afghanistan, um, Iraq, um, fire service, um, that I started to analyze the support network that my granddad had. And he didn't have any, he didn't have it at that time. Um, there was the sergeant's mess and the Legion metros, and that was it.

[01:32:19] Right? So like Dina was saying at that time he just self medicated. He went to the sergeant's mess and got himself. Went to Legion came home and now his wife is three adult daughters, or teenage daughters are waiting for him and he smashed the Christmas tree up. Right. So now I'm sitting there analyzing my own journey where I've been in.

[01:32:43] And, um, my, uh, my uncle Bruce just passed away a couple of years ago, but he was the last living, um, uh, son and cause my mom passed away everybody. Right. And I said to him, and I said, uncle Bruce, he doesn't remember any of these stories. Cause he was very young. So by the time everybody moved out, it was just him and his dad.

[01:33:01] And he had efficient buddy doesn't remember any of the anger, the drinking. But I said, uncle Bruce, you know, there was nothing in place for your dad. There was nothing in place. He all he had was avoidance and drinking and he went through this on his own and obviously the family brunt. So I said, you know, I'm not trying to justify what happened, but I'm just saying, I just want everyone in the family.

[01:33:26] To appreciate and understand that he was struggling. There was no support network for them. And like Dean said, like in 2000, like we joined 99 and I left 2009 a little bit longer. There wasn't any support network. I had a Padre cause I didn't go with my unit when I deployed Afghanistan with a different unit came back.

[01:33:45] So I might even with the guys that I served with, and this was 2007, the Padre, my unit debriefed me. I went home for three months on leave. And that was it. That was it. Right. And like I said, I told you, like I was in a firefight Taliban sniper meshed my head six inches before I came home or 24 hours to go on the juror, spelt the court, I'd go by.

[01:34:06] And I'm like, whoa, that's close. Right. They literally off that back to Tewkesbury check-in with mother and on a flight back to Canada. And that was normal. Right after devices. And that was 2007. All right. It's not that long ago. Not that long ago. And even like in the fire service, I got all thing. Mental health was recognized about 2015, really supportive by WCB, getting involved, you know, so it's all relatively newer 

[01:34:35] Dean Nugent: for us.

[01:34:35] It's it's still new. Um, I remember I had six sessions with the CPN, so I'll be open what's the CPN. It was like a counseling. Okay. So I'd gone home. I was married at the time, uh, to Guernsey. So flight from Germany back to UK, back to Guernsey. Um, and it was two weeks leave. I didn't go back. Ah, W Tina, the wife was watching a program on the telly and I had a little bit to drink.

[01:35:14] And then next minute something had happened on the tele I'm under the table. And she's like, what you're doing? I was like, sorry, what? I just, I, at the moment. So I said, I can't go back. I can't talk to anybody in Africa. So she rang POC and she rang the battalion, said like, you know, my husband's struggling, blah, blah, blah.

[01:35:38] Um, and they were like, right. Look getting back, you know, um, and we'll get him some help. And she says, look, it's private in Guernsey. She's got health package. So I goes to this doctor, um, start chatting to him and he says, can I be honest with you? I said, yeah, please do. He says, I can't have, I don't know what you're doing.

[01:35:59] Aye. Aye. Aye. Not, this is not my field. I don't know how I help you. You know, maybe you get some counseling or, or something or I give you some pills and I'm very much no pills for me. Thank you. So then I get sent back to battalion, get picked up at the airport, get back. Um, and Tina said like, I'll send him back as long as he's going to get help.

[01:36:22] Yeah. Yeah. We're going to help him. We've got to help him gets back. Six weeks later, he is on the phone to me. I'm drunk in my room. She's like he getting help. It was like, yeah, it's all right. It's all right. I got this. She said, you're not, are you? I says, no, no, it's what I've got this, but I wasn't. So then eventually I got told I had, um, not an interview.

[01:36:45] I had a meeting at this place with a, like, not a shrink. It wasn't a shrink, it was just a counselor. So I was like, okay, cool. Where is it? Free buildings. From my bunk house on our camp was the CPN office. I could have walked down there. If somebody told me it was then I'll book booked him himself. Well, free doors, free buildings down.

[01:37:12] Then when I get in and I start talking to this chap he's ex ref nurse or something. So he's like, you know, so, you know, what do you want to talk about? So nothing really. I don't know. I don't know. I don't really want to talk to you. I'm honest. So he says, I'll just tell you a bit about my background and then you just start, oh, he's XRF.

[01:37:33] I've got these forces, so it can feel a little bit uncomfortable, started talking, but honestly, back then, after the fourth session with him, I'm sat there listening to his problems about his wife, leaving him and his daughter going out in the local town and the boys meeting her a lot of the times. And I'm like, I've got, get.

[01:37:55] Hmm, this isn't helping me whatsoever. So he said, so he says scope of Nugent. He says, do you think these sessions have been answered yet? Thank you. Brilliant. I'm good. And I just walked out the door. They still, and then we've, we've Chris, our friend. So since 2014, Chris has had five attempts on his life and I've been to the hospital where the NHS has signed up to the Arden armed forces, covenant.

[01:38:21] And I've been gaslighted a lot. He's a veteran. He needs help. Yeah. Just get him to sit over there. And one of his triggers is a baby cry, babies crying because of a situation he had. So we're in this hospital, these babies cry. He is now got his hand and he's digging his nails into his face. He's trying to peel his face off and I'm sat there watching this and I'm like, damn, let's get him outside.

[01:38:44] Some fresh air, get him outside. He's crying now he's feet. He can't do this. And I'm thinking, so it goes in. I said, have you not got. Or somewhere I can sit him down away from everybody else so that I can just, he can be in his own environment. I can just calm him down. She's like, oh, I'll go and look. So let's go low.

[01:39:03] And then they get this room. We sit in, there, comes down until I'm like, well, when are we're going to get this guy seen to, you know, we, we don't have, it's not about being priority or anything. The reason there isn't a book. This is how we solve this problem. Or this is how we deal with we're all making. It sounds horrible.

[01:39:23] We're all making it up as we go along to a point we're following certain. Oh, so the old book from 1950 said, we do this, this, this, that, that don't work. 

[01:39:33] Travis Bader: DSM three said this, but DSM four contradicts now DSM five puts it in the cluster group or whatever it might be. So 

[01:39:41] Dean Nugent: what works for me is if I'm out in the Hulu or in the wilds and go for what Travis come for a walk with me, let's chat.

[01:39:50] How's everything. Well, Dean, do you know what I don't make? Tommy will keep walking until you finished, 

[01:39:58] Travis Bader: you know, how few people actually have that in their life or have somebody that they can do that with them. That's 

[01:40:05] that's 

[01:40:05] Dean Nugent: that, that's that thing. And this is where Chris had that with me. And I have that with Chris and I have that with Jason, that Jason needs to go for what Jay's can we not do anything today?

[01:40:18] But he knows you need that moment. You want to talk about it? Yeah. Do or don't. And that, and that's that thing of that, again, belonging, even if it's one person that you feel like belonging, he's got my back. I know that if it's I'm back in the UK and it's crap, I'll ring him up and I could ring him up at six o'clock.

[01:40:44] I know I'm going to get an air fall for bringing him up at six o'clock straight away, but he will listen to. Yeah. And, and that's the one thing I learned when I was helping Chris. I couldn't help him the way he wanted me to help him. I couldn't wave a wand and all of it go away. I needed him to do some things as well.

[01:41:07] Travis Bader: Yes. 

[01:41:09] Dean Nugent: And, and that was, it will always be provers and I'll help you. And I've got your back. I need you to do some things as well. And that's what I've learned. It's that we all, we all want help and support, but we need to do something to get to them points as well. 

[01:41:26] Travis Bader: I agree. Even if it's small things, yeah.

[01:41:28] Diet, exercise, sleep, then watch the news hydration. Don't watch the news, get off your device, get off social media, whatever, just small things. And maybe it's not, maybe, maybe you're stuck on that. And that's the, where you have to be. Okay. Maybe it's 10 minutes, maybe it's 15 minutes. And just, how do you build that?

[01:41:46] Plug away? Step-by-step yeah. 

[01:41:50] Jason Budd: It's interesting. You say that Java, I can't take credit to it, but there's big four that I, I advocate for. And it was a Merican veteran that was on maybe, um, YouTube or something. And he said fitness fanatic. And he said like in ourselves and, and our peers, all there's four things that we can monitor.

[01:42:11] Um, we need purpose, healthy lifestyle. So diet, exercise, substance control, and sleep. And those are the big four that I monitor myself, others. So per purpose, healthy lifestyle, substance controls, control, and sleep. So sleeps begging. And if any, one of those goes, then the rest crumble. So those are the four things that I recommend.

[01:42:41] I, we look for. So we're not mental health professionals, so we know one of those are out. It's not our job to. Um, the fix that, but that's where we have to be referred or refer our friends do, Hey, something's out. Maybe, you know, we're there to listen, but basically those four are kind of like the pillars of, um, how I move forward.

[01:43:04] Um, and I think it's really important. Like, like Dean says to be there for each other, but it's really important to be a witness to the chaos and not add to the chaos that, that individual's going to. That's really critical. 

[01:43:18] Travis Bader: Right. So like the fellow there, who's adding to the chaos. So you're speaking 

[01:43:22] Jason Budd: with yeah.

[01:43:23] And that's really important. And that has a lot to do. Like, um, I can relate, um, there's one time in Afghanistan. That's not the time to inject that in. Right. It's got nothing to do with you, what they do at the time. And that actually, that can also go to like, you're talking about TIF and, um, Tiff's a great, great lady lover.

[01:43:42] Um, Uh, but, but when women, not women, I've learned the hard way comes to you with a problem. They're not looking for solutions. Yes. Unless they ass they're venting. Right. And I, and I had to learn that with, um, uh, my ex lawyer. She had some problems, family problems, and it would be a broken record over and over.

[01:44:07] And then I'm say, I don't want to hear it anymore. Right. But what they're doing, or what I've learned is they're venting and that's not just partners that just friends. Right. Um, they're venting and they're not asking for a solution. Right. Unless they say, what do you think that's your time? 

[01:44:23] Travis Bader: Yes. To inject.

[01:44:24] Right. It's a very difficult life skill that most people that I seem to encounter have a very limited grasp on. Most people will listen long enough to get their idea that they want to say what they want to say next. That reminds you of the time when the here's, when. And they don't truly just listen to what somebody else is saying.

[01:44:46] Obviously, in a podcast scenario like this, we got, we have to have a little bit more thinking what's where are we going? Make sure we come back full circle. We got the pen and paper out here to make sure that we're, um, we have some continuity as it goes through, but in regular, everyday interactions with your friends, just sitting down and listening and being happy for your friend in a, uh, in a meaningful way, I'd say those number of people in your life.

[01:45:16] You could count them on a hand on one hand that are, that are able to do that for you. That's been my experience. 

[01:45:24] Dean Nugent: I can go with that one. Not many people do just sit and listen. They want to put their input on what they believe is right. Or this is how you should do it. It's like, whoa.

[01:45:38] Travis Bader: That's really good Dean. That's like the time I went to and okay. I was just talking about something. I was really happy and proud about. Right. Maybe I can have that moment. We can give it a little bit of time and then we can talk about your moment, right? Yeah. 

[01:45:51] Jason Budd: You know, bringing up, uh, a mutual friend for, um, for us is my friend Richie and you've met runtime and that's one thing I can little Richard, you know, he's a great, great little dude.

[01:46:02] Uh, 

[01:46:03] Travis Bader: ex JTF too. 

[01:46:04] Jason Budd: No, no, he right on selection. Okay. I thought he did. He went on selection. It wasn't for him, whereas CCR, but you know, he went to Afghanistan, but he became, I wanted to go star tech and I met him on that ski traverse. And we're sitting there talking about, um, he wanted to go, go on SARS tech selection, but the recruiting there was telling me how to transfer, to become a medic and go to Petawawa.

[01:46:28] And he was about to get, become a new, um, uh, husband. His wife was from Whistler and I'm listening to story. I'm like, dude, Do not go to pedal, do not. They're lying to you. They're trying to get you going to be a medic in Petawawa and not anything wrong with that. But you live in Whistler and you're going to move to Petawawa and I focused him and he, um, uh, he became a firefighter, did all his training, firefighter and Whistler dream job, two kids, awesome wife.

[01:46:55] But my point about Richie is that I don't have a bigger support that celebrates my wins like Richie and the guiding his passion is the mountains, but he's gotta be a career like after his family and kids. And sure. He's getting more and more out now as the kids get older, but Richie, I just, he celebrates every exam I passed and like, it's like, he he's passed too.

[01:47:22] That's awesome. You know, and I get the support to hold those people close. Yeah. But just, I don't, this guy just celebrates to the next level. It's crazy how that's awesome. How in depth did it is for him? So it's like, Hey Richie, 

[01:47:40] Travis Bader: well, in, in those big four that you put there, I would say finding proper sleep is going to be, uh, an easier one for people to accomplish.

[01:47:49] So there's the Zopiclone diamond, Hydra, Naples, whatever, but, uh, melatonin, but there's something that's achievable and, um, measurable. Right. Um, what was the substance? Substance control? Substance control. Okay. I get it. Yeah. Maybe if you like to have a couple of drinks, maybe social media, right. It's a 

[01:48:12] Jason Budd: lot, lots fall into that bracket.

[01:48:14] Right. 

[01:48:14] Travis Bader: But there's something that's measurable. Okay. Uh, what was the other. Not progressed, healthy lifestyle, healthy lifestyle, so exercising, eating properly. Um, again, measurable. I think the tough one in all of those for people would be come back and we're going to come full circle here is purpose. Right.

[01:48:33] And what do you find meaningful for yourself? Cause what I find meaningful might not be the same as what somebody else finds meaningful. What I, my aspirations in life, I want to have a strong family. I want my kids to do well on my wife to do well. And I tell them all the time you can throw a match in the house and burn everything to the ground.

[01:48:50] We can rebuild that. Right. But having that family network needs to be intact. That's built through trust and it's built through, um, consistently striving to do better. Uh, that's a huge level of purpose for myself. Some people say, well, I don't have the family. Right. Or maybe your purpose is in the mountains.

[01:49:10] Well, you know, I'm not really, I'm not a mountain person, maybe some running, oh, my knees are terrible. Right. Uh, finding that level of purpose is I think probably the one piece of that, that, uh, four piece puzzle that might be the sticking block for people that are in an area where they just can't see past the horizon.

[01:49:32] They can't see that next hurdle. And they think, oh, I've got no purpose. I don't have all of these things. 

[01:49:36] Jason Budd: Well, Jordan Peterson mentioned in one of his podcasts about when he's advising some of these clients that have shut down or they're not working or they're at home or whatever, he's like find a job.

[01:49:49] Right. So that purpose could be simply as finding a job. Right. Um, I know when I first came back from the UK, I took six months off to do all my fire courses. I had a savings and I could do it, but at six months my dad said to me, he's like, you need a job. Like I need a job. And, um, I, cause it took another six months to get hired and I had lined up to be an interview for ski patrol.

[01:50:14] And one of the, one of the Hills here, uh, come in in the summer, it didn't, it ended up not working out. I remember this. Yeah. And I applied to be, um, OFE three first data tenant at Burnaby city came for the interview and I said, um, came very apparent in the interview. I wasn't there for first data attendance.

[01:50:33] I'm like, what's this interview for? They go labor on the blacktop career. And I'm like, what do you pay an hour? And this is like 2009. They're like 26, 50 or $28. Sure. I'm like, I'm in. Yep. And it actually helped me. Um, cause one of the interview questions I had with, uh, The flanker for fire service was how are you going to handle the snorty?

[01:50:57] You're a platoon Sergeant and the British army and all this other stuff. And I said, well, if you look there since I've been working on, uh, Burnaby city labor on the blacktop roads crew, and when they said kid get in the back of the dump truck, shovel up the rest of the blacktop, um, I did that. So I have no problem.

[01:51:17] You want me to look after seven other firefighters in the hall as a probation? I got it. Cleaned toilets, anything else? Right. So it definitely set me up for success. Um, within the Vancouver fire was filing that humbling job, um, and being the bottom guy. Yeah, no 

[01:51:35] Travis Bader: that's purpose putting the ego aside. You can put that ego aside.

[01:51:39] Ah, it doesn't pay enough. I don't want it. Well, we've been chatting for almost two hours. 

[01:51:49] Jason Budd: So God's going to have to do some editing 

[01:51:51] Dean Nugent: here. Big style part one part two. 

[01:51:56] Travis Bader: Is there anything we should touch on before we wrap up? 

[01:51:59] Jason Budd: Well, I'm looking forward to whatever meal Tiff's walking up, but yeah, that's breaking bread with our friends is very important, right.

[01:52:09] The connection. But, um, yeah, I think Dean is hitting home on Saturday, maybe back in August. We'll see, 

[01:52:19] Dean Nugent: I got a Coldplay concept first. Not plugging copay. But a Coldplay and then I need to check the dates and I want to come back 

[01:52:26] Travis Bader: out. Well, well, listen to the, uh, uh, response we get from the listeners. And, uh, maybe when he come on back, if a had a fun time, we can, uh, pick up where we left off and catch up on the new adventures that we've had between now and then loads.

[01:52:41] Gentlemen. Thank you very much. Thank 

[01:52:43] Dean Nugent: you for having.

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