A compass in the hand
episode 84 | Aug 30, 2022
Outdoor Adventure

Ep. 84: Wilderness Survival

Travis Bader's long time friend Jason Budd returns to the Silvercore Podcast to discuss wilderness survival. Travis and Jase recount stories of past mishaps and lessons they have learned from them. Jase provides insight tempered with his experience as a professional soldier, fire fighter and mountain guide.
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[00:00:00] Travis Bader: I'm Travis Bader. And this is the Silvercore Podcast. Silvercore has been providing its members with a skills and knowledge necessary to be confident and proficient in the outdoors for over 20 years. And we make it easier for people to deepen their connection to the natural world. If you enjoy the positive and educational content we provide, please let others know by sharing, commenting, and following so that you can join in on everything that silver course stands for.

[00:00:40] If you'd like to learn more about becoming a member of the Silvercore Club and community, visit our website at silvercore.ca

[00:00:52] all right. I'm sitting down with longtime friend, Jason, bud, and returning podcast guest. This is what fourth time number four, number four, number four. Have we had somebody come on four times before? I know, uh, Paul Ballard's been on a few times. Okay. But I think, um, number four, we'll have to check the, uh, we'll have to check the archives to see where we're at here, but, um, I 

[00:01:14] Jason Budd: never thought when you first.

[00:01:15] Called me up to do the first one and I was pretty hesitant. And you could tell them that. Yeah. Yeah. Never thought I'd be back for number four dropped. 

[00:01:21] Travis Bader: You know, I always figured you would be. I mean, you've got enough stories and you course you do. Yeah, I did all this stuff. 

[00:01:27] Jason Budd: Well, you're still trying to get me to write my memoirs.

[00:01:29] Travis Bader: Yeah. I think you should. I really think you should. Yeah. Well we're 

[00:01:31] Jason Budd: baby steps, right? Yeah. Big plans maybe in October, but we. That'll come out later, I guess. 

[00:01:36] Travis Bader: Yeah. That'll be a fun announcement. Yeah. Well, right now, if people are watching this on YouTube or if, even if you're listening through your normal podcast provider and the audio sounds a little bit different, hopefully it doesn't, but I'm using a travel kit at the moment.

[00:01:51] The studio is going under some renovations, we're doing some upgrades. So, uh, let us know, uh, in the comments, what it sounds like, what it looks like, and if we're going in the right direction here, uh, I'm sure we'll find out because, uh, people are pretty vocal about that anyways. Uh, um, we were talking about wilderness survival.

[00:02:12] Yeah. And it was something that, uh, was sort of on the back burner for a while. Cuz you've had a fair bit of time in the mountains and in the woods. And actually since the last podcast we did with Dean, you have, um, you've been spending a fair bit of time outside. Why, why don't you give a little bit of an update of what, uh, what you've been up to before we start talking about wilderness survival?

[00:02:34] Jason Budd: Yeah. Um, I think we mentioned, um, I was going on my assistant Alpine exam in the cascades 10 days. Right. Um, Went down and did some pre training. And then I was successful on my assistant Alpine exam for the American mountain guide association. Right. So, um, I just need to complete the full rock exam and the full Alpine exam.

[00:02:56] And that's pretty much done the if MGA system, um, which is international Federation, Mount guides association. That's kind of what I set my sights on a few years back. Um, and I was recommended to come back, do the full Alpine exam next year. Mm-hmm and they recommended I go, I didn't bother applying for the full rock exam this year in October of November of fed rock.

[00:03:18] Right. The examiners told me, encouraged me just go on the wait list. Yeah. So I've done that. Gotta start pulling some harder grades. Mm-hmm okay. But, uh, turning up for that. And then, uh, usually there's a very good chance that probably gonna get on, uh, last minute opening in terms of like one to two to three days, notice to move and then flight down to red rock Vegas, rent a car, and five days on the rock exam.

[00:03:42] So exciting. That's kind of that this winter I'm looking forward to the winter because ski guide exam was done last year, so it's just cruising, having fun. Nice. Um, but Steph's, uh, training for her full exam, probably the next one to two years. So we still gotta do little objective base. Okay. Trip. So yeah, that's kind of what we achieved, not moving forward.

[00:04:03] Travis Bader: So it's been pretty slow. You haven't been doing much is what you're saying. well, we did 

[00:04:07] Jason Budd: came off the exam room, took two weeks holidays and went back to the cascades. Did all cause the problem with this is I say the problem is that. You just don't apply for the next exam. You have to build a resume. So we had to do so many grade, um, Alpine commitment, grade level, five climbs, and then so many glacier route and things.

[00:04:27] So we basically took two weeks holidays and just completed as much as we could. And then most of my time off from work, um, I'd been out either guiding or, um, Doing our trips. So we're building a resume. So beauty pretty much done for the full Alpine. My resume's complete. So, so 

[00:04:46] Travis Bader: needless to say, you've had a little bit of experience in the back country.

[00:04:49] You've had experience in the Bush, both at the personal level and professional level. And, uh, it's that experience that I'm hoping we can kind of share some of the, uh, uh, mishaps. I know I've, I've had a few mishaps in the Bush that, uh, I figured I could share with the audience and, uh, what I've learned from it.

[00:05:08] And, um, also, um, uh, see from what you've been through, different things that have, uh, been, uh, perhaps shareable learning experiences, as opposed to those UNS shareable learning experiences. 

[00:05:21] Jason Budd: yeah, I think, um, it really comes down to, for me, um, back in, in, in the British army, we have a term, um, for, uh, what was the term, um, Not kit hoarder, kit, monk.

[00:05:37] No, you're junkie. sort of like that they have the term for it. Um, it'll come to me. Yeah. Yeah. But, and we talked about it, I think on the first podcast where, you know, pretty much in the British army, the only thing I wore issued were my socks. Right, right, right. Um, everything else you could buy in altar.

[00:05:54] And I was always buying the lightest gear mm-hmm um, or the most efficient gear or anything I could to make my life easier. Mm-hmm cause weight is an issue mm-hmm and it that's some of the lessons I've learned that if I can be lighter, light is right. Mm. You also have that term pack light freeze night.

[00:06:12] I've been there. So it's finding that balance and then carrying that into the outdoor community. Um, Like the term we often use is a planned B, a B is where you're gonna camp for the night and an unplanned B. Right. And a lot of people just default to saying, well, always pack if you're gonna spend the night.

[00:06:31] And I don't necessarily agree with that. Mm-hmm because, um, if you have lighter equipment, you can move faster. Mm-hmm you can limit your exposure to the hazards. Might be the elements might be overhead. Hazard might be avalanches. And there's certain times of the day, maybe you want to move through this train or it's safer.

[00:06:50] Mm-hmm right. Mornings tend to be safer, you know, for lots of reasons, give an Alpine start. Yeah. Alpine start or, uh, avalanches, you know, solar effect, everything. Right. So. limiting your exposure to hazards is really critical. And if you are always lugging a tent and sleeping a bag around on a day trip that day, trip's gonna go into an overnight trip.

[00:07:14] Yeah. You're gonna be knackered too. It's gonna be knackered. Yeah. So the balance then on those day trips is I always think of it this way is that you're bringing enough equipment, so you're not gonna die. Mm. Right. Mm-hmm , you're not gonna die. You gotta last 24 hours. Mm-hmm really, so you're gonna be uncomfortable, but you're not gonna die.

[00:07:30] And, um, one of the, um, stories that comes to mind that I can think back to is, uh, the elephant lake. The winter route elephant lake, um, marked trail route. Yeah, I think it's 24 kilometers return. Mm-hmm maybe a thousand meter gain and you start in Squamish at the, um, Trailhead for the red Heather, and then it's marked by Rangers.

[00:07:55] And they basically have these bamboo poles that are every hundred, 200 meters along the winter route mm-hmm . And because a lot of people would travel in from the city on a Friday night and they just follow this marked route. So in terms of navigation, you don't need a lot of age, you just follow yellow brick road, for example.

[00:08:11] Right. Right. Um, and this is back in 2010. Okay. So I'm dating myself back here, going back a little bit. Yeah. On my very first set of back country skis. And I remember those skis, little skinny, 60 underfoot. Yep. 1 65. No idea. Yeah. Just to get me to, to the mountain, to climate. Yep. Now that was my concept.

[00:08:29] Right. And my partner at the time, Laura and I would very adventurous heading out into the back country. And, um, we would. Decided to do a day trip and have dinner at the hut and then ski back with headlamps, right. Um, back to the car. Yeah. That was your plan marked up. Everything was kosher. Um, and all, I meant 2010, I wasn't probably aware of a lot of the weather forecasting.

[00:08:59] Um, or maybe they weren't even as developed as they are now. Right, right. So the weather forecasting was a big issue. Uh, but we always had the basics. We always had your trans probe shovel, a tarp, uh, warm jacket, spare gloves, spare hat to beanie for the UK. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I think beanie in the us as well. Not sure, but too.

[00:09:19] Yeah, yeah, too, too, you know, Goretex jacket. Um, you know, the basics so that, you know, the concept was is that you could last 24 hours if you needed to be. Hmm. Um, So everything was fine. I think we set off probably mid-morning skinneded up, got into the hut probably early evening four o'clock had dinner. I opened the door last light and I started seeing precep precipitation stuff happen a little bit of the wind picking up and I'm like, well, let's go.

[00:09:54] This is gonna be fun. I like moving in storms. I told you I love storm skiing. Mm-hmm so, Hey, this is gonna be great. And we got marked root. What could go wrong? Right? Easy, easy peasy. Right? Easy, easy peasy. So we're carrying on and heading up the Ridge and, uh, the storms building and now it's black. Like we're going, we've lost light.

[00:10:16] Headlamps is fine. And the storm by the time we're about halfway along the Ridge, it is completely ping pong ball, white out. And maybe you could see. You know, I, I couldn't see the next marker anymore, right? Yeah, marker's gone. Yep. And I may have had a GPS, but, um, you know, I probably didn't drop any bed crumbs.

[00:10:38] I probably had the parking lot, but that doesn't necessarily gonna be able to navigate off this is pre iPhone. So my favorite navigation tools or Cal Topo, Gaia fat map, um, easily follow those in a white out. No problem. Mm-hmm I could navigate to a couple meters of where I needed to be in a complete white out.

[00:10:57] Didn't have those tools. Right. Um, we heavily relied on map and compass, but as you know, a map and a storm's not gonna work too well. Yeah. Yeah. Not too, not too hot. Not the best. You know, I probably didn't have a root card, so I didn't have my bearings. I didn't have my legs down. Like a good soldier would.

[00:11:14] Right. and I still do all that. I still, we call it a white Oak card, um, for the mountains. Mm-hmm so I still do it. Um, if I'm in unknown train, I'll make a white Oak card. So if my iPhone piles in or something like that, I'll have the bearing, uh, my backup. Navigation's always an imeter. Um, and that's the old SAS navigation on the roots.

[00:11:35] You just have map compass, Otter mm-hmm . And if you have a bearing with your Teter, you'll know where you're along that line map, simple, simple tools. Right. So I did have a map cuz I was religious in that, you know, map compass. So Timor, I did have that at the time, but bought, but my problem solving was I just need to get to the next marker mm-hmm right.

[00:11:54] Um, so I'd have to leave Laura at one of the posts where they headlamp on and I would do a 360 to locate the next one and that's how I was navigating, right? Yeah. So H. I would've just dug an emergency shelter. Mm-hmm right. So just a snow cave. Really just find a wind lip, dig into the backside, get in, put your backpack backpack in.

[00:12:18] So it's, it's not like, uh, an AGL or anything like that. Mm-hmm , it's just, but this was Olympics and Laura was a volunteer and her very first day was starting the next day and she's very like particular she needed to be there. so I also had that human factor mm-hmm , um, affecting my decision of where we need to keep going, because she's gonna needs to volunteer the next day to be at her very first event where everything pulled me.

[00:12:46] I should just dig in right for the night, right? Yes. And wait it out. Yep. Storm's gonna be good. We'll have some good skiing down in the date. It's fine. But, um, I pressed on. Okay. And, um, We, we continued that, leaving her at one post. I do it head out 360, find the next post next bamboo marker. And then she just follow the light ski to me.

[00:13:09] Yeah. Yell at her ski to me. Yeah. And that's how we got along the Ridge. And I think the Ridge is like maybe four or five kilometers. Okay. That's how I got through this. And then at the certain point, then when you get the, the dissent to Paul Ridge in the red, Heather, um, that's pretty easy, you know, you're going downhill from there.

[00:13:26] Yeah. So we're touring along there, but the elevation ban changed and the snow changed rain. Hmm. So Goretex is good. Yeah. And, um, I see this party of two or three coming up, snow shoes. So they're transitioning from rain to snow. Oh, I'm not fine in the Alpine. That's never good. That's never a good idea.

[00:13:48] Right. That's I avoid that at all. Like if there's a trip where we're starting in rain going to the Alpine, I don't go. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So. it's easier to go from snow to rain. Mm-hmm cause you're on your way out. Mm-hmm and these guys have black, uh, garbage bags over top. Oh, with the arms cut out. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:05] Yeah. And I think there was stuff hanging off it and everything. And I, and I said to the guy guys, like, really, what are you doing? And this is probably at midnight now, too. Yeah. So that's how late we've gone. That's how long it's taken us to get there. I remember trying to tell these guys, like, not a good idea.

[00:14:20] Honestly. I said just go back to red, Heather and bevy there for the night. Mm-hmm there's no turning 'em around. I have no idea if they made it, they didn't make it. Mm-hmm um, I was in, in squamous star at the time. Anyway, so no idea, but just watching them. Trucking off you just say, you know, that term, I think we call it, well, I call that term the unconscious and confident.

[00:14:40] Right. And then you're conscious, confident as you get more training, as we talked about and we strive then to become, or I try to train my clients to be conscious, confident, conscious, confident, yes. Conscious and confident. And then you wanna move into the unconscious competent, right? Yes. And that's realm.

[00:14:58] So this is definitely the unconscious, uh, incompetent. Right. 

[00:15:02] Travis Bader: You know, and it's just sheer luck that sheer luck. Yeah. That's when get them through it. 

[00:15:06] Jason Budd: Yeah. So never a good idea. Midnight garbage bags heading out. And you'd see that. I mean, my days in Squamish star, that was pretty common to see. Yeah. You know, people you're going out to rescue like that.

[00:15:18] Right. 

[00:15:19] Travis Bader: I mean, I did the garbage bag thing when I was younger. I'm 

[00:15:21] Jason Budd: there is a point like people say, when it's fully on sleet over your Gortex. Yeah. You know, like, you know, you can carry it for sure. 

[00:15:28] Travis Bader: You know? Well, I just did it cause I didn't have any money. Yeah. I, uh, would go to the boardroom or to, uh, where was it?

[00:15:38] I forget what it was. Yeah. Maybe it was sport check or something like this. And, uh, rather than renting your skis or your board, you could, uh, demo it there and you get a brand new board. So you demo all the gear and it was way cheaper, but I would just put garbage bags on for all my gear. I looked like a goof on the slopes, but, uh, uh, that was part of the learning experience and that whole.

[00:16:00] Conscious incompetent area is, and you and I were talking about this earlier about the Dunning Kruger effect. And I mean, for listeners who haven't heard of that one, I think more and more people talk about it. Now it's a bit more common, but essentially the Dunning Kruger effect, there's two guys, Mr.

[00:16:16] Dunning and Mr. Kruger and two different universities. And, uh, they came up with a formula that showed a person's confidence level based on their, uh, ability and the length of time they've been into a new skill and they would find a large bell curve where people get in. They're like, oh, I don't know anything.

[00:16:36] And they learn just a little bit. And all of a sudden their confidence level is through the roof. They figure I can do this. And the more and more that they learn, they realize holy Crow that was dangerous. Or I shouldn't have done that. Or I, I really am. I'm just scratching the tip of the iceberg. There's so much to know.

[00:16:50] I don't know if I'll ever know it. So all of a sudden they're the more they know their confidence level starts coming down a bit. Cuz they realize there's. They realize what they don't know? 

[00:16:59] Jason Budd: Well, I've always said a T one avalanche skills trainer, one course or standard baseline course, we teach the students enough to get themselves into trouble.

[00:17:08] Right? Yes. That's basically my takeaway that I get them to take away is like, you're just now more conscious of the actual hazards that's out there. Right. Mm-hmm so for sure, 

[00:17:21] Travis Bader: for sure. So thinking about that, uh, whole Dunning Kruger. I remember when I was, what was I 17? I think I was, and, uh, I decided to take my wood panel station wagon up a mountainside up past cam loops and went to a location where I'd known.

[00:17:36] And I've been there a lot since I've been a little kid and, uh, it was up a logging road and usually it's either, it was either helicopter flight in or a, um, or a hike in and. Uh, for this since the main road was quasi plowed, but the side roads that take you in there weren't we had about a 21 K hike in that's.

[00:17:58] Okay. I figured most of it. I'm gonna be hiking on a, on a road. That's easy. Right? Well, one thing I learned really quick at that age was the main road and the side roads look all the same when they're all snowed in right. Summertime that you can really tell the difference. What else did I learn? I learned maybe don't load your, uh, backpack full of all the food and booze and everything else that you think you wanna be bringing in and leave behind some essential equipment, because you know, in your back of your head, I know how to get there.

[00:18:30] I know where it is. I'm fit. I'll just hike it in. And we're good. It was about negative 12 out. And, uh, it was, it was hard slogging through, I mean, we're, we're pay hole in every step. We had our snow shoes at, uh, uh, the guy at mountain magic. It's a store. It's not a left around anymore, but, uh, he stayed open on Christmas Eve so I could get off work and have renting these snow shoes from him.

[00:18:52] And then he gave me a deal on it. Nice guy. Uh we're Payco and all, all the way. And end up getting lost going in there. And that was okay. I mean, like through the day it was, it was sunny. Right. And so I've got my t-shirt on, it was thinking of 12, but I'm hot cuz I'm working hard and heavy pack and, and uh, probably a cotton t-shirt back then.

[00:19:11] It was a cotton t-shirt yes. 

[00:19:13] Jason Budd: absolutely. I love cotton, but it's not an outdoor shirt. No. Yeah. 

[00:19:17] Travis Bader: But um, I remember we were going in and I was with two other people. I was able to talk into going in and they, one guy wasn't quite as fit. The other guy was, uh, even less fit and. It was, it was a long slow slog.

[00:19:33] And I was given a satellite maps that a, another fellow came up. He says, oh, we got these satellite photos that were taken by a logging company. You gotta use 'em. It shows all the new clear cuts out there. So it'll make it easy for you. And I'd never navigated off sat photos before I'd use topos, right?

[00:19:51] Yeah. I'd use map encompass, but, and so I'm just kinda looking around and looking and saying, good lesson, know your kit, know how to use it. Right. Um, I just figured it would be easy. I, it would all make sense. And this is way pre iPhone. And this is pre satellite photos. Really? This was pretty 

[00:20:07] Jason Budd: stable. I mean, we used to get them in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[00:20:09] Right. So 2005, seven era. Yeah. Never had them in Koal Bosnia, but yeah, they surfaced. Around that era, 2005 for me. So this set photographs. 

[00:20:21] Travis Bader: Yeah, this was 94 around there, 93. And so, I mean, they, they were doing it. They're doing it, but it was new for me. It's not like we had Google where we just go on and so, uh, good learning.

[00:20:33] Did you have 

[00:20:33] Jason Budd: Google earth back then? Trump? No, not back then. No. 

[00:20:36] Travis Bader: Um, and I remember, I thought I'm gonna take a shortcut. I think I know where it is. Right. And I got a compass out and I'm using these sat photos and I'm gonna take a shortcut through this area. And I was correct in what I was thinking. I just didn't realize the, um, uh, the sat photo, of course doesn't show the train and the, um, The sun was going down and I went down this really steep embankment, and I kept falling into the snow because there was, um, down trees that I was falling in between.

[00:21:07] And, and, uh, I remember I came back up and I was still wearing my t-shirt right. And I didn't realize how cold I was getting. And the other two were really cold, but the sun's going down. And I finally, I said, you know what, I'm going to, they were waiting at the top cuz I was going to show 'em the way. And of course I ended up coming back up and, but everything was getting really dark for me.

[00:21:27] Like it seemed like it was getting darker than what the sunset was doing. Yeah. And I realized I'm not shaking or anything. And maybe this is hypothermia. I don't know. I've read about this. Right. So, um, I. I got some kit on and tried to get some warm gear on and, uh, wanted to get moving as fast as I could.

[00:21:49] We're going back up a hill and I told them, I said, look, it, I, I'm not feeling right. Something's not quite clicking. And, um, if for whatever reason, cuz it's getting darker and darker. If, if for whatever, whatever reason I happen to pass out, I'm pretty sure our destination is. And I point in the area and I think it's only gonna be about another couple kilometers over that way.

[00:22:09] Just drop the packs and drag me in right. And um, thankfully once I started to warm up a little bit and I had some kit on things, started feeling a little bit more optimistic and that doom and gloom feelings kind of started to subside. But the other two that I was with were, uh, really delving deep into this whole mental doom and gloom.

[00:22:30] And, and I asked him, I said, look at scale of one to 10, where you at 10 you're right as range zero. You're dead. Where are you at? And, uh, one guy's like, I don't know, like a four, the other guy's like a two. I hated. Yeah. So, um, we ended up just through sheer determination and stupidity slogging in. And I remember when we finally found this one lake and was all frozen over, and that was the lake where we had to be, it took us 45 minutes to cross something that in the summertime would've taken you, I don't know, five, yeah.

[00:23:02] Seven minutes to, to cross. And then I get to the, um, to the cabin and I figure, oh, this is great. I couldn't get the lock open. Cuz the hands weren't working, I figured I'm gonna have to knock the door down. Eventually find a way in and the thinking. Everything would be great when you're in the cabin and not realizing until you get inside.

[00:23:21] It's the exact same temperature as everything outside, um, fire got going. We're good. Amazing how good. Yeah, you are. Once a fire gets going and you start to warm up a bit and, uh, but there was a lot of learning lessons off of that. Know your kit, know what you're bringing with. You don't bring untested stuff the very first time out.

[00:23:39] Um, I didn't really have much of a trip plan on that one. Um, maybe maybe have a little bit lighter pack. Like it was heavy pack that I was packing in and, um, I mean, bunch of fresh food, none of this freeze dried stuff. Right. I think I had a chicken or two in my backpack cuz I wanted to cook those up. Um, I've learned a lot since then.

[00:24:03] Yeah. On, um, what, what not to do and how to stay outta trouble and others. I mean, I was up there at another time in the winter and these other people had to break into our vehicle and make a shelter out of it because they, um, uh, they were lost and they found the vehicle there. Yeah. So, yeah. Um, couple little learning points on that one, I think between you and I, I probably have more of these survival type stories that you do.

[00:24:30] Yeah. Based, you 

[00:24:31] Jason Budd: mentioned that to me and they're like, let's hear the, your, um, you know, some of your survival stories and I'm like, Travis, I don't really have that many and I've been out there. Yeah. And it comes down to that. And I've said that I've never had an unplanned B yet touch wood. I've never had to stay on a climbing route.

[00:24:48] Cause I ran at a time light or whatever. Um, and I think that really comes down to touch wood. Um, Pretty good planning preparation. Right, right. Cause I haven't had that experience. of, I I've had some, some, um, I wouldn't call it near miss, but I mean, I got frostbite in my hand, on, on Hector, right. Similar, you know, uh, my defy and I were going up to ski mountain Hecker.

[00:25:20] So mountain Hector, I thinks around 12,000 feet in the Rockies near mosquito hostel Icefield Parkway. And it was super cold. Maybe it was February. And um, we got a break. The conditions went to moderate for avalanche clear sunny day. It's gonna be minus 20. So we thought let's go and I had these good Atter gloves on, and if everyone hasn't done it, there's a gully.

[00:25:47] You gotta go up and it's faceted snow because it's so cold. And one of the things I had going on was I didn't have the, um, top of the gloves, cinch tight, and you basically are having to plunge step up this gully, you can't skin it and I'm plunging up. And, um, the snow is going down the inside of my gloves.

[00:26:10] Mm. , I didn't really clock it cuz I'm working hard. Like you said, you're my t-shirt right. So I'm working hard and the snow's going in my glove and it's melting, but everything's fine. Everything's warm because I'm working. Mm. And then as we progressed up the mountain, just short of summiting, we took a break and I, maybe we talked about this in one of our podcasts, but I remember looking at a, at, at a smaller pair of gloves in my bag, going, my hands are cold right now.

[00:26:38] Mm-hmm but I should put these gloves on mm-hmm but they're not as thick as the ones I'm wearing. So I can't see it being any better. So I didn't change. Right. But I should have changed my gloves. Mm-hmm because you know, the wind was howling from, I guess it would be coming from the Northeast, but it would basically howling on this side of my face, this side of it.

[00:26:59] So we got up there. summited transitioned, beautiful ski down. It was phenomenal. Like we did this, I think it was maybe six hours up. Yeah. I can't even remember. And we were 40 minutes back at the car, high fived at the car, got in the car, um, drove down the road. Um, but I'll take a step back. So I did take my gloves out and I noticed on my pinky finger and all my fingers, there was fleece.

[00:27:24] There was a liner. Yeah. Inside the Goretex Gutar glove. So the moisture went in, melted, moved outside the fleece couldn't pass the leather barrier. Mm. Re ref froze. Each finger had a, like a cocoon of ice on it. Okay. I guess. So I looked at it didn't think anything of it. I'm like, oh, that's interesting. Got in the car.

[00:27:45] driving down the road. Two minutes later, hands start thawing out. I had to pull over dry heaving, agony, painful incapacitated. Wow. I had basically long story short ended up with frostbite in my pinky, um, frost. That's not from that truck. I think that's anchors pencil. I'm just looking at it now you're looking at it.

[00:28:04] Black finger. I think that's from the pencil. Yeah. Yeah, but actually it's this finger. Um, and we had to go to the ho I couldn't sleep that night. It's one of the most severe pain I've had, was having frostbite go to the hospital the next day. And we had planned to go up and ski up in the wop then and stay at bohu and the dock side, you can't go back out and expose your, your finger.

[00:28:23] Um, cuz if you get another cold injury, orating it in the summer. Kinda like my fingers. I like my fingers. Right. So I had a lot going on when we got back to Whistler, like we canceled a trip, came back. I was doing my ski instructor 1 0 2. So I basically had to ski with Mitz and those hip pads. For the rest of the winter.

[00:28:40] Mm. And to this day, my fingers are definitely affected, especially the ones that frostbite in mm-hmm . So it's very subjective to the weather changes wet. Um, but that was a lesson on that. Like when, when we said, when, you know, you should do something and we talked about it, like, yep. Change, change your socks.

[00:28:59] Tighten your boots. Yep. Fix the blister problem. Administrate change that soaking wet base layer. Mm-hmm change your gloves, change your, to your, to soaking wet, you know, or adjust it. That's that's that's key. 

[00:29:12] Travis Bader: Yeah. Those little things of just the very small, the discipline to administrate yourself to 

[00:29:20] Jason Budd: this pattern.

[00:29:20] We keep coming back to this. It is. 

[00:29:22] Travis Bader: And, but there's something else in there too, which is kinda interesting, which is you thought about it and went through your head. Maybe I should do this. And there is this weird little, six sense type of thing that I don't think people should ignore, especially when they're out in a situation that could be, um, could have some dire consequences.

[00:29:43] If for whatever reason. Now I get a sense, even, you know, just around here. Oh, I should probably pick this up. Someone's gonna trip on it. Yeah. The second that I think that. It's kinda like a self fulfilling prophecy. If I don't pick it up, somebody will end up tripping on that. Right. So I've started to learn to really trust that gut feeling or that sixth sense, 

[00:30:01] Jason Budd: you know, Travis, uh, I was just telling you about a climb.

[00:30:03] I did this this Sunday. Yeah. It was called Goldy locks. And it's up in Squamish put up by calling Morehouse, uh, 15 pitch, Alpine climb, traditional climbing. So you place in your gear. Um, grade goes at, most of the pitches are like 10 a can B. We felt that they're UN um, undergrad. They could, every pitch could be over grade.

[00:30:24] So it's a pretty significant climb, right? One hour approach in, we were seven hours on route, which is pretty good. 21 minutes, a pitch mm-hmm . So we're always calculating and timing, everything time estimates, but the walk off there's a walk off. There's two ways to get down. Rep held the route and called and Moreell said, don't recommend it parties below you.

[00:30:43] There was no parties below us. Right? Loose rock. We didn't really see any loose rock. Yeah. He did recommend somebody coming up and bolting. A decent propel route off to the side. I have the hardware. I don't know if you wanna. Sure. And I could go do it. We'd take the gondola up. Sounds like fun. Let's do it, propel ourselves in and bolt the route.

[00:30:59] But the other way is you walk back to the gon and that wouldn't have worked for us because we would need another four by four to get back up the road. So he says there's a bushwa three hour bushwa. And to do the repel, you needed a 70 meter rope. We brought a 60 and I have this Escaper. It allows me to repel single, and you can pull it right.

[00:31:19] It's not meant to do 15 wraps like that. One wrap one off. This Escaper is pretty cool off the show. It, you, it's a pretty cool system. Sure. The BL Escaper where you can turn your single rope into a 60, but we talked about it and then we didn't action it. Mm. And that's um, there's two, two rules that I kind of follow.

[00:31:39] If I'm uncertain about something, the first rule is get more info. Mm, right. Get more beta, more info. Mm. And the second rule is increase your margin of safety. Right? So these are the two rules I apply when I'm planning to go in the back country. So you gotta get your information if you're uncertain. And one way to create, like for example, we could have increased our margin of safety for this route by bringing a 70 meter route though, a 60 is adequate, but a 60 wouldn't be adequate to repel the route, unless you have an Escaper for some of the longer route.

[00:32:10] Right. And I wouldn't, the Escaper is more for emergency or that one off repel. So we talked about the 70, we didn't bring it right. But there is ways of turning my 60 into a 70 without the Escaper too. Sure. And that's some Jedi guide stuff that I can assure you later on. Sure, sure. We didn't even think about that either.

[00:32:28] And we both thought to ourselves at the top, would've been nice to repel, but we sat off on the bushwa and the bushwa was horrible. It was literally jungle warfare. one meter like horrible Bush whacking for three hours to go back down to the forest service road. So just wrapped should have wrapped. And, and I said to Steph, I said, let's avoid trips.

[00:32:49] Now that involve Bush walking. Mm-hmm when they say three hours of Bush walking, let's go find something else or find another, even though our guts, our guts, you know, said don't like, bring a 70 mm-hmm really think about rapping, even though Colin say don't wrap it, totally wrap this route. Right? Like they do in a red rock, there'll be 20 parties trying to wrap, I mean, popular route.

[00:33:08] Right. And I get it in the Rockies when you have limestone and rock fall. And mm-hmm, same up in marble canyon here, but this route's totally adequate. It's just not a very good repel route. Mm-hmm, there's a lot of horizontal movement and stuff. Right. So I, you know, I think, you know, we, we talk about our guts and, and, you know, like for example, I said, you know, I need to change my gloves.

[00:33:32] Right. But I didn't do it. Unfortunately, we often, um, overpower that. Whatever that conscious, um, influence is telling us to do something. Mm-hmm we usually put it to our mental map after it's gone wrong. Right. And usually, you know, the incidents aren't significant enough to kill us. Mm-hmm another mentor.

[00:34:00] Ben Peter says is mountain guide says that, you know, some of the recreationally climbing we see is there should be more fatalities out there, but humans are really hard to kill. Right, right. It's a luck game, right? Yep. The survival game is actually, I believe it's really hard. Mm-hmm and I see it so many times out there with rec parties, but, um, I think we need to make that mistake survive.

[00:34:24] if we can put it to our mental map and I'm, I rarely ever make that decision, that mistake twice mm-hmm and, um, I'm probably my worst credit. Critic critic. Yes. On, on my exams. Yeah. I beat myself up harder than the examiners. And, but, and I tell 'em that too. Like I really process, I analyze it for 24 hours where I made that mistake.

[00:34:47] Mm-hmm but my takeaway from it is I never make that mistake again. And I tell the, the examiners that I said, and I can actually put the examiner and the mistake and the exam I was on in my guiding stream as a learning mental map. Mm-hmm, where this guide said, you know, like, um, I can remember for example, um, my Gado, who is a, our technical director for the ACMG on my apprentice training in Whistler, the turn I skied under the recreational, um, Uh, Decker, right?

[00:35:25] The recreational tri just goes under Decker and you head out yeah. That's normal route. And he is like, Jay, I need you to take as an apprentice guide. Um, the safer option, right? I need you to take, um, the lesser of two evils. And I put that to my mind. I'm like, yeah, that totally makes sense. Mm-hmm um, and recently this winter I was guiding rainbow peak, rainbow peak has gen peak and it's a really fun day trip, but I recommend the hell drop.

[00:35:50] I know a guy but you can do it. And gen peak is a freaking flyer. It usually kills one to two people a year mm-hmm and I had a, a client up there and we got the gen lake. I can't, maybe it's generally it's the lake that's at the base of gen peak. Okay. We went out to the center of the lake, had our lunch transitioned, two rec parties skinned right underneath gen peak.

[00:36:12] And that's where they stopped. Mm. And I said, looking at this, I said, I know today, We're at like two 11 in terms of avalanche risk. It's Bulletproof nothing's gonna happen, but do the recreational party know that mm-hmm and I said, probably not, probably not. Then I pulled up pictures of avalanches that almost reached the center of the lake mm.

[00:36:31] From the overhead above gen peak. And I said, I always default to the safer option, even though I can actually make a hazard assessment and go on this day, it's safe to stop where they did. I think it's just bad habit to get into mm-hmm right. So I think that's, you know, well, 

[00:36:47] Travis Bader: that's a growing thing too. It is like, you get older, you get, um, you see what could go wrong when you're younger, you're invincible nothing's gonna happen.

[00:36:55] Right. Or you don't care if anything happens. Exactly. 

[00:36:59] Jason Budd: Um, you know, well, that's why they say like 25, uh, 20 to 25 is the highest fatality rate in young men. Is it more adventurous, less hazard? I could see that awareness. Um, and it's interesting. And I always say this, like the, um, you know, the British army has a matrix of what age you should be at what rank, you know, private 16 to 18, Lance corporals are 18 to 2122 section commanders, 23 to 25.

[00:37:27] Mm-hmm right at that age because they are leading the ban at church mm-hmm . Um, when we were teaching those pre SES selection courses for the core guys to go on the infantry. Training course that I was one of the instructors. Remember one of the chief instructors saying section commanders are pit bulls being held by the platoon commander on a chain mm-hmm

[00:37:49] And then the platoon commander releases them. And that totally stuck with me. And they were mm-hmm and in Iraq, I was that I was that cutting edge. Mm-hmm , you know, leading the charges in, you know, in the buildings and, um, El mark ABAR and things like that. Um, and the time I rolled in, in Afghanistan, I was a platoon Sergeant and I was happy to be one tactical bound back from the assault exception because what these boys got up to and what they had to do, I'm just like.

[00:38:17] You know, I was probably 28 then mm-hmm, the old man at 28 in the platoon. Right. Um, where my Canadian counterpart, I met this warrant there from RCR, one of my buddies, and I we've talked about it. He was like 38. Mm-hmm doing the same jobs. Right. Mm-hmm um, but at 28 I was a voice reason in that platoon. And I agree with you.

[00:38:34] And I got 23 to 25 is pretty critical. Mm-hmm also the high, highest fatality, you know? 

[00:38:40] Travis Bader: Well, you've mentioned a couple of things. So, uh, your phone, you're using the phone for navigation mm-hmm and you're loving. I love that. Yeah. Um, are you carrying backup battery power 

[00:38:49] Jason Budd: with you? A hundred percent. Okay. So there's certain things.

[00:38:54] So we it's interesting now, um, like Murn park outside TWA mm-hmm people get lost. Sure. And call SAR. And if they had situational awareness Hmm. They know that you got the ocean. Mm. You got the highway, you got the mine. Mm-hmm and you got the highway mm-hmm you're gonna walk in a direction. Yep. You're gonna get out.

[00:39:14] But they get lost in a kilometer square footage. Mm-hmm and they call SAR. Mm-hmm um, and it's really critical with your phone. If you find yourself in that situation, you have to, um, save battery life. So airplane mode's really critical, but you can't obviously use your cell with airplane mode. Right. But if you have cell reception, then you need to call that's your most primary thing right away is call and everyone has an iPhone.

[00:39:42] I don't know anything else. Besides iPhones, all these other smartphones, but on the iPhone, they have a compass app. Mm-hmm that comes with it. The compass app has your long lot. All you gotta do is call when you call nine one one, they put you to the SAR manager, open that compass app and give 'em that long lot.

[00:39:58] And it gives you elevation. Yeah. They're gonna find you that's really critical. And often what happens is that our managers talk people through how to find their location. I highly recommend navigation apps like Gaia, Cal Topo, um, Fat. Map's pretty big. I'm not a big fat map map guy, myself. I really like Cal topple mm-hmm , um, building roots and then I import them into my Gaia.

[00:40:24] Okay. And I think Gaia's a really good navigation yeah. At, to use, but I love Cal topple. You can build the root, it gives you the elevation. And then I, I calculate my speed distance time with this, with another app called guide space. Yeah. That I use. So those three apps are my biggest tools is the guide pace.

[00:40:41] And the compass is good too. I love the compass mm-hmm with quick reference elevation. Um, so when I'm obviously navigating, I go to airplane mode, close, all your other apps. It drains, it drains the phone. So airplane mode also, I don't know if you know this. Did you know if you charge your phone in airplane mode, it charges faster.

[00:41:00] I 

[00:41:00] Travis Bader: did not know that you not know that. I didn't know that. Start the game 

[00:41:03] Jason Budd: trap really go play mode and it's. It, it, it rockstar it in, 

[00:41:09] Travis Bader: I know, works as fast. I, I believe the newer phones. Yeah. iPhones will charge from like zero to 25 really quick and then slower afterwards. So they can get a emergency charge on plane.

[00:41:20] Try, 

[00:41:20] Jason Budd: like even in your truck. I I've been doing airplane mode probably six, seven years now with iPhones. Interesting charges it like, you know, like for example, um, 

[00:41:28] Travis Bader: like it makes sense. It's not gonna have as much draw as you're charging it. Like 

[00:41:31] Jason Budd: often I, uh, will have my not start my truck, but just turn the key.

[00:41:36] So it's charging off the battery. Right. So I don't wanna waste fuel, but I can waste enough battery in my truck to charge my phone, go to airplane mode. And it's a fraction of the time. So that's why you can carry a small cell. I think I like usually just carry the zero or zero, whatever, go zero. 

[00:41:55] Travis Bader: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:41:56] Jason Budd: Okay. The low I get about four full charges out of it in a claim mode. Yeah. that's pretty good. Yeah. Um, for longer trips, like I would say anything more in three days I have a solar charged battery, small, probably the sizes notebook. Yep. And I've migrated to all my systems. My headlamp can be charged by that.

[00:42:16] Um, my iPhone, my e-reader. So 

[00:42:18] Travis Bader: you're using a rechargeable headlamp, not a battery. 

[00:42:20] Jason Budd: Yeah. Correct. Okay. And the rechargeable headlamp is good without bringing like, um, I'm probably good for three days. Right. And be honest, I try not to move that much at night anymore. Sure. Right. Sure. It's like, I try not to, there is Alpine start.

[00:42:35] Sure. We we're marching off. Yep. Right. 3:00 AM with headlamp and you have different settings. So you go really low light. Yeah. If I'm technically climbing, then I'll go higher beam. So I save that energy for that lamp. So I'm using, um, yeah, I'm charging with that. So on Denali, I. My iPhone, my eReader, my headlamp, all got charged with this solar panel battery pack.

[00:43:00] That was this size. Hmm. When it's that cold though? Minus three at night, everything's gotta go in the sleep bag. Right? All the, anything batteries gotta go in your sleep bag at that cold. Batter's only cold, right? Yeah. Yeah. Always in there. And, and your fuel canisters, but you shouldn't have full canisters on the alley unless you're climbing the more technical route.

[00:43:16] You be white gas anyways. Right. But, um, all that is in your sleep bag. So yeah, that definitely, if it's a day trip, I usually don't bring that spare, um, battery. Mm-hmm I'll just, I go straight to airplane mode. Okay. Just save my battery. Right. And, and you gotta have it your phone soon as you use that screen.

[00:43:41] Close it mm-hmm as in shut the phone off on the side, like not down, but like close that screen. I've had it where I've left it on the camera. Like you go to take a photo and it stays on, stays on. That just sucks the battery. Right? So you gotta be really diligent, like shut the phone off into hibernation mode.

[00:43:57] Mm-hmm right away. Boom. Save it. Right. Um, I try not to track too many maps like Gaia, when you Gaia can track Telepo can track fat map. Mm-hmm as soon as you do that, it just depletes the energy mm-hmm of the phone. So often I'll just create my own maps anyways. Um, if it's key, I like, I really want to track this, then I will track it and then I'll ensure I have battery pack.

[00:44:20] So if I'm tracking on a day track day trip, then I bring a spray battery. You know, another way I do as a guide now is I will build the route and share it with all my clients smart. So now everybody has it. So that's backup navigation. Mm-hmm right. So everybody's on their iPhone. Has that. That route, um, something comes to mind, we're talking about it, but, um, famous Alpine traverse called the, um, Haltz route in, in the Alps in 2018 and a storm came in and 16 people died right over that weekend.

[00:44:56] And one of the parties was a 10 person team, um, led by a mountain guide and his wife and they set off just pre-storm. It would've been better to probably hang out in one of the huts. Sure. And he got, there were, I think there were then four to 600 meters of, of the other hut on this Ridge. They couldn't find the exit down mm-hmm and his iPhone.

[00:45:18] And, um, eight people died that night in his group, including him, the, the mountain guide and one person did, I believe have a GPS, but it wasn't getting shared or anything else. And that's one thing, um, on a big expedition. I will bring a GPS and plot the basic points. Mm-hmm right. If you actually had the basic points, but I don't, I find the older GPSs, they're not as, um, modernized right.

[00:45:47] With all the map layers and the navigation as their iPhones. Sure. Right. So there's that trade off and they're heavy and heavy by saying that I do have a little ere that's like, you know, right. The little guy, the little guy. Yeah. Right. But navigating, it's not the same, the way points and everything, but it would be good to drop, you know, critical way points.

[00:46:07] Like for example, that, um, critical descent route you'd have the hu the, and that critical descent route would be perfect to do so if something like that I'd have that in the group. I don't necessarily have to carry it, but you'd have that backup. But, you know, honestly for myself, um, I also carry an in reach.

[00:46:26] Right? So the little one, the little I have the mini in reach. Yeah. And this goes back to the basics again, where I can get my, um, if my iPhone shuts down, I can turn on this in reach and I can get my UTM grid reference. Right. So if I have my map, you you're golden. I can find where I am on the map. Mm-hmm and just plot my point.

[00:46:47] Now we're back to the old school map compass. So these are old skills that we, uh, even though they're old schools that you and I grew up on, um, don't pay a lip service, right? Mm-hmm like, definitely you need to, well, it's worthwhile, worthwhile understanding how to read a UTM grid. Yeah. I've, I've migrated from the military.

[00:47:06] Good reference to the UTM. Mm. Um, I'm in and out long lats. I don't think it's as accurate, but SAR likes the long lats. Okay. You get that in aviation long LA yeah. UTMs really important. I think it's the easiest way to navigate understand UTM. So you can take that navigation point from your end reach, plug on the map and that's my backup, 

[00:47:25] Travis Bader: but you have to have your GPS.

[00:47:27] So that's UTMs universal, transverse Meor. Yeah. And that's so you can take a look at your map and exactly shows you exactly what map you should be looking at and shows you exact. If you know how to read it, you can see exactly where you are in the grid. Yeah. 

[00:47:37] Jason Budd: And it, it is a just. The the military good reference system is a condensed version of that.

[00:47:43] Right. But, um, both are effective, but I just find UTM now is just it's you don't have to convert anything easy. It's easy. Um, and understanding it. So I think that's really important. That's my backup really is the map. UTM compass eptember I carry an, a temperature ever. I go mm-hmm um, 

[00:48:03] Travis Bader: so that would be what your watch or would that be your watch?

[00:48:05] Yeah. Yeah, my watch. So you'd have to always zero 

[00:48:07] Jason Budd: that zero in the morning, right? Yeah. It's kind of good too. Cuz now we're getting into the weather mountain weather. Right. But you know, you look at the barometer and the easiest. Layman's terms if your barometer affects your altitude mm-hmm so like if your, um, altitude has gone up, you wanna go down, right.

[00:48:25] That's the most layman, right? Yeah. Yeah. If the Altitude's gone down, it goes up and we can get more into the weather and barometer concept after you'd 

[00:48:32] Travis Bader: have a low pressure. 

[00:48:33] Jason Budd: Yeah. Low pressure, high pressure systems, right. Layman terms. That's one way, just another fun thing to look at. Right. So 

[00:48:39] Travis Bader: one thing that I tend to bring with me is, um, I always like to have a way to make fire and I always now bring a SIL tarp, some sort of a 4%.

[00:48:49] Yeah. So you're in the Alpine a lot more than I am. I'm in the Bush Mo mostly slogging through, but having a, um, a SIL tarp has been a godsend for us on, on a number of occasions. And I, I remember we did a fly in to, uh, spa C last year and it was, uh, myself, my wife, my son. And we were in quasi remote area.

[00:49:16] Well, I mean, remote area in so much as there's nobody around for miles and miles, but another group had also flown in. So we were at a base camp area and got up in the morning. We're gonna hike up the mountain side. We had an area we're gonna scope out. We're looking for caribou. And, uh, I remember we're going up there.

[00:49:35] We have our packs on going light as you can, but still have your kit with you because if things go well, you're gonna be coming back heavy. Right. So you're gonna be coming back with an animal and. I, as we're slogging up the mountain side, this other group of guys comes racing up shorts and runners and, uh, no packs or most of them, and they're running up past us.

[00:49:59] And my son's getting a little upset. He's like, man, we got up early, we're doing all this stuff. And these guys are gonna come up or they get to see the animals before we do. I'm like, don't worry about it. Let's just keep going. Right. Anyways, we, uh, as we get higher and higher in elevation and the weather changes, this was in, uh, August late August and, uh, uh, starts raining, starts hailing, starts snowing.

[00:50:21] And then we're full on white out conditions when we're up there. And uh, and I said, well, let's just, well, we're gonna sit down. We could either hike all the way back down the mountain side. Yeah. That's an option for us. Right. But why don't we just sit down, set up the tarp, stay warm. We can have a little bit of food to eat.

[00:50:39] And, uh, the other group that went running past us. They, they petered out they're they're right back down the mountain side, we were out, we came back at sunset and, uh, uh, didn't, didn't find any caribou up there, but, uh, uh, just having a few essentials a means to stay warm, uh, something to, uh, make a fire.

[00:50:59] Now we didn't make a fire up there, but we had our thermal. You could have, we could have, yeah. Had our thermal layers. We had our, um, uh, hard shells, but that tarp man life changes your whole attitude and outlook changes when you're 

[00:51:13] Jason Budd: hunkered down. Even in the wintertime travel like on my ski guide training, when we're, let's say mechanized and you're waiting for the Debo to come in.

[00:51:22] It's amazing. Just wrapping like yourself in that silk tarp or whoever's injured, right. It reflects the heat in right away. Right? Like it's crazy how much it shelters from the wind mm-hmm and, um, makes you warm. Steph just bought this one. It's really cool. Uh, but it's the ones that you pull over and you sit in it and you get the different there's two, four person.

[00:51:43] Really? Yeah, it, I think it's from RA. Okay. I'll send you specs on it, but it's not it's it's it's not like, no, not no longer. Tying it in like a tarp. Yeah. You just pull in, in, if you have two people, they just sit on either side of it. Interesting stays up. Well, that's easy, but you cool at a bla station because if it, all of a sudden you get caught in a shower, you just pull it over and you just stand there.

[00:52:05] and it goes, oh, so that's kind of a cool thing to look at. Yeah. So especially if you're in a blizzard, you're not gonna worry about, um, trying to tie it up in trees and all that. Cause you're still gonna get hammered on the side. Right. But yeah, I'll give you the specs on it and maybe the listeners would be interested too, but, um, it's a cool thing to add as well.

[00:52:22] Um, one thing that I have when I ski guide though, I have a rescue tarp. Okay. That's also de bargain. Uh Tobo and it's from Alpine thread works. Okay. So it's a little heavier, I think it's just under two pounds, but you can definitely, it's bigger than the so tarps and it converts to a de. Cool. Um, check it out, out print thread, work rescue to Bo 

[00:52:42] Travis Bader: you just slid down the side or you put your gear on it and, 

[00:52:44] Jason Budd: uh, the skis okay.

[00:52:46] On the splitboard can go inside of it. Got it. And then it has, uh, you can Rigg in cuz we rather have a RA rope, the six mill rope, or even a five mill cord, five meter, six mill cord can make a bridal. Okay. And if it's steeper, you can have a brake guy too, but it's on YouTube. Alpine thread works. Um, Neil is, he's a ski guy that makes these he's so backlog.

[00:53:07] He had something like couple hundred orders last year. Good for him. Um, yeah, so good for him kind of his thing, but check it out. The Alpine thread works, um, rescue tarp, ski tarp. Um, pretty cool to have for the wintertime. You know, the reality is one person. We always say this Steph, we plan like one person, unless they're UTRA isn't gonna drag somebody out but two people can make a good effort with one person.

[00:53:31] Sure. And one of my buddies, uh, Rory, um, and I think Robin, my other buddy Sarek, Rob Robin. Rory's wife, they were up skiing in, um, the sky pilot basin mm-hmm and she blew her Neo and they called SAR and they were starting to get dark and Rory had the tarp and, um, instead of waiting for squamous SAR to come, they actually wrapped her up, put the skis in and they dragged her out.

[00:53:57] Nice. And I think they met them on the, um, there's a cat track on the way out. Yeah. But they actually pulled row's wife out of there with the bum knee instead of waiting around, you know, and he's a ski guy, she SAR tech. So it was an no brainer. Yeah. But, um, often that's the case where, you know, you're relying on SAR and you can't.

[00:54:18] And the reality is, is like, I always tell people, this is really critical too, especially in the winter is my turnaround times are really critical because, um, if I'm ski guiding off Whistler or black home mm. I wanna be back inbound by three 30 mm-hmm because it's dark by five 30. Mm-hmm 5, 5 30. And in the spring we can push that timing out later, but it really comes down to SAR being able to mobilize and the helicopter flight time.

[00:54:46] Mm-hmm and that's why it's really critical in winter to dial back your objectives start earlier. But it really comes to being somewhere safe by three 30, because that limit that's given SAR an hour and a half maximum time to respond. Mm-hmm so that's why it's really critical to keep that in mind in the wintertime and light, because SAR can't fly at night.

[00:55:09] Well saying that north shore now has night vision. Right. Right. But they may not come in a storm either. Mm-hmm they often SAR managers are like dig in for the night. You know, a 

[00:55:17] Travis Bader: lot of the places that I'm heading, we, we don't have SAR. That's gonna be coming out for us. Yeah. And it's um, uh, And when you're talking about sharing the maps with the rest of the people in your group, very smart, easy, easy to do.

[00:55:33] Everyone's gonna have their cell phone with them. But that brings to mind, not just your kit, the things that you have with you. And we've talked a little bit about mindset, which is huge, but yeah, your, the people in your group, knowing who you're going out with and their mindset, and I'll share a real quick story.

[00:55:49] Um, one of the guys that was on that trip that I took in when I was 17, 18 years old. And, uh, they thought they were gonna die out there. Yeah. In my head that was never, death was never an option because my ADHD brain just never thinks of consequences. Right. It's just consequences. Ah, whatever I'm I'm in the moment.

[00:56:11] Right. And, uh, but they thought they were gonna die. I didn't realize how bad they thought it was. And when. A couple years later. And instead of having the wood panel station wagon, I'd now have a, um, a nice 1980 Ford F two 50 half rusted out, but, uh, diesel truck and I got some chains for it. And I thought I can get us in closer to our objective this time with a chains on and we'll drive in as closer we can and we'll take off.

[00:56:43] And I talked one of these guys into going with me, and that was a mistake because the I having the right people with you who are in the right mental mind space makes one hell of a difference. We got in son's going down. I said, well, we'll just, I got a canopy on this thing. We're just gonna camp in the canopy on the back.

[00:57:01] Yeah. Fine, easy peasy. Right. And that's, you know, 1215 Redridge. So when, where we're at and, uh, this guy starts falling apart. I, I, he was saying, and doing weird things that I, I'd not known him to be like that. I'm like, you know, I'll make you a fire. Right. And so I find some wood and get a fire going, and it's all burning through the, uh, this snow hard to keep it going.

[00:57:25] But we get something going, that'll throw a little bit of warmth and he brings out some food and he's eating a couple bites out of it. And he throws in the fire, like, what are you doing? Right. And then he's got his bottle of wine with him. He takes a couple sip and he just dumps it in the fire. Like, you put the fire out, what are you doing?

[00:57:41] Right. And then he's crying. Right. And then like, what that, so. Not pushing those in your group to the level that you think they should be able to, but objectively just cuz you can do it or you feel you can do it objectively, uh, gauging your group so that, um, you can maybe kind of do away with that ego cuz he didn't want to say he was scared.

[00:58:06] He didn't want to say when he woke up in the morning, the next day, um, he said he didn't think he was gonna survive the night. Yeah, it was so cold. So I think that's another piece of the survival puzzle is, uh, know who you're with 

[00:58:19] Jason Budd: and you know, like you, you mentioned a, I just took some notes here too, Travis, but um, you know, sharing that information in the group mm-hmm is, and I share other things like the distance, the elevation and the time.

[00:58:32] Right. And obviously a kit list. Um,

[00:58:38] What happens is, and what happened on that fatality there in the Alps? Hmm. And the article about it talked about, um, the expert halo. So we follow the expert without question. And, you know, they talked about, well, everyone could have done a weather forecast. Sure. That was out there. They're all experienced ski, mountaineers that hired a guide.

[00:59:02] And what they did wrong was they put the brains in neutral and just let this guide make his decision. And there's some of that, um, situations in Canada right now where, you know, it's gone to court and everything else. And, and, and mm-hmm, the guide. They're the groups are avalanche and everything else. Now I'm not saying to hire a guide and then question every decision they make.

[00:59:23] Yeah. That sense. And then I'm not gonna go out with you again. Right, right. But there is that element. Of that expert halo. And it could be simple as you know, I'm in the mountains. Mm-hmm so you are gonna come out with me now. Mm-hmm right. And that, and I have friends, I have too ADA and Richie. Yep. They put their brains in neutral.

[00:59:41] They go skiing with JJ for the day and they want that, which is great. And it's, it's, it's a guide day. Sure. I'm not taking any money for it. Yeah. But I'm actually responsible for them. And I like it cuz I've been in charge in sure. But they actually, and I also have a different level of risk, little higher.

[01:00:00] And I remember coming back into disease Ridge and it was a storm bay. I love this storm skin and there is elements that are VES on it and you can still ski it. You can, it's like going through a minefield where the good train is. We had loads of snow, probably a meter that night. And I remember. Going at.

[01:00:16] And I remember in my briefing, the guys going the safest routes, just go straight down the Ridge. Right. But dropping in is gonna be the money. Yeah. And I remember going, um, this should be okay. right. I'll go first. Yeah. And Adam's like, that's not good enough for me. Hmm. I have a wife and, and, and, and he's a smart guy.

[01:00:36] Yeah, he's a math, right? Oh yeah. Cal Clinton. That's right. This should work. It's not good enough. That's right. I've 

[01:00:41] Travis Bader: done the odds of C 

[01:00:42] Jason Budd: either. Gotta go. It's either gotta work or it's not. Yeah. And I said, you're a hundred percent right at it. We need to go down the Ridge mm-hmm . And I even said that to myself.

[01:00:50] If I was guiding, I wouldn't have considered this drop in route. Right. I'm out with two buddies and they're following expert halo. Mm-hmm the one good thing was I verbalized that decision making with them and that is like, yep. Um, I'm tapping out we're I, this should go is not good enough. Yeah. Good for him.

[01:01:06] Good for him. And we went down the Ridge. Yep. When he said that and it, and that was a good learning point for me. Mm-hmm in the guiding element too. It's like, this should go, doesn't cut it. Right. It's either going or it's not going mm-hmm right. And why is it not going? Right. So, but that extra Halo's really critical.

[01:01:23] Um, and it could be simply now all of a sudden we're gonna rolls reversed. I'm going out hunting with you. Mm-hmm right. Mm-hmm . And it's been a while since I've been, I've been on the two, a right for range for a while. Right. but weapon safety. Sure. Um, packing for that element. Um, I, you know, I don't stock cougars.

[01:01:43] Travis Bader: Yeah. You know, not anymore. easy, 

[01:01:47] Jason Budd: easy job. buy them a drink. Right. You know, that's the standard standard one. Yep. Yeah. There's a Cougar hanging around the base of the chief fire drink. Yeah. Um, but maybe we should edit all that out. oh man. But you know, that extra halo is really, really critical too, you know?

[01:02:08] Travis Bader: Yes. Um, fire, what are you bringing for fire?

[01:02:15] Jason Budd: So I used to be really keen. Yeah. Collect Lin. Yep. From the fire. Now I usually have like. um, if you're on an overnight trip mm-hmm and you have a burner. Yeah. That is a really easy way to start a fire. yeah, it is. It'll dry. Everything out. Yeah. Um, in the past, on my, uh, survival training with the SAR. Mm I've.

[01:02:41] Used a candle mm-hmm with the candle on the base, get the really small, really fine ground fall type, really thin branches. Mm-hmm use the candle as your base to get that going. Yep. Um, often now I just bring, um, Like my toilet paper, mm-hmm with a lighter. Mm. So I'm removing it in different elements, but you know, human waste is a big issue now.

[01:03:05] Right. And you know, there's a whole bunch of, you know, like in parks they tell you to blue bag it out. Mm-hmm like, especially in the states, we're not so much in Canada, but we're getting more and more because imagine like, if everybody had to poop at the base of the chief, right. Which is what's happening.

[01:03:19] Yep. Got poop everywhere. Um, but there's just different disposals, the cat versus smearing your waist on a rock and everything else. Yeah. But ultimately, if you can burn your toilet paper, that is a good option. If you don't pack it out. Right. So my toilet paper or my lighter, or in a waterproof bag and they go hand in hand.

[01:03:34] Okay. Cause if there's not a fire, not worried about starting to force fire, I'm gonna burn my toilet paper. Right. Mm. Um, so that would be my, basically that's my fire starter kit. Okay. That I'm using right now. Um, I don't get, you know, the. Yeah, scratch 

[01:03:49] Travis Bader: little Piazzo PI zone, uh, lighter. Not just the lighter.

[01:03:52] Jason Budd: Yeah. You know, and everyone has in a group. Yep. I always tell everyone bring a lighter in a group and we have it, right. Yeah. Um, cuz ultimately that's all good trap, but you heard the rule of three. Yeah. Right. Three minutes for oxygen. Three days for water. Three weeks for food. Mm-hmm right. Those are the three that you need to survive out there.

[01:04:12] Yeah. The rest. Anything else is a bonus and I'm not saying just like, you know, Go light. completely. 

[01:04:20] Travis Bader: Yeah. Yeah. Too light going. Light's fine. As long as you know, when to turn around. Yeah. The whole mark Twight philosophy. Right. 

[01:04:26] Jason Budd: For sure. So, you know, that's pretty much my fire starter at this point that I'm doing right.

[01:04:32] Either at the stove, which will aid in that fire starter. Yeah. Um, candle candle's really good. I think a candle, a candle wrapped, wrapped up in, um, tinfoil mm-hmm cause it can also melt snow. Right, right. For that water, if you need it, you know, in that night, but you can also like in a water bottle, if, if you have a hard water bottle, if you got water, just fill the snow in, it kind of melts it down.

[01:04:55] Cause ultimately I'll be honest tr. I'm just surviving for 24 hours. Right. Because if you're caught in a storm, if you can survive that 24 hours, SAR can find you in the morning. Right. When it clears. Yeah. You've gotta survive 24 hours. Mm-hmm and that's how you gotta think about it. So if that means you've gotta bring a tent in a sleep bag everywhere you go.

[01:05:13] Well then sure. But you also gotta suffer. Right. But can I dig a snow shelter wrap up in a tarp? Um, you know, do I need water in that 24 hours? There is ways of getting water in that snow shelter. Right. Um, or maybe it's in the summertime, right? Mm-hmm um, so that's how I think, I think 24 hours, you know, can that storm go longer?

[01:05:35] Yes. You know, but there might be contingency plans placed by SAR. Like for example, we can't fly in the storm, but SAR migrated in Squamish to go into snowmobiles. Mm-hmm right. And the first time they did it, they just recruited some yahoos that didn't go too well. sorry. Being towed or on the back and getting bounced off and everything else.

[01:05:57] So we have some, well, I say I'm not partner squad SAR right now. Leave abs absent. But, um, there's some phenomenal, um, snowmobile guides. Mm-hmm, some mom phenomenal that train the SAR annual training, and then they go out and they're qualified. Now they have quads. Um, Snowmobiles or internal. So instead of recruiting the yahoos, that go on in the back 40 now, right?

[01:06:21] Yeah. So, 

[01:06:23] Travis Bader: so, um, some way to communicate, uh, something to kind of keep you warm enough and shelter through the night 

[01:06:31] Jason Budd: shelter, you know, and that, communication's interesting too, because I carry, we work off guides, work off a three bank system. So cell phone and reach radio. Mm. Um, and the first tier for the most part is my cell phone.

[01:06:46] Mm. And reach, and then radio is more to deal with internal mm-hmm . So I know like if you're ski guiding on the, in the back of black home, we monitor the ACMG channel because my first level of rescue is gonna be other guides. Right. So we monitor all the ACMG. We chat, even though we're not working for the same company, we'll do a heads up.

[01:07:05] Hey, you know, maybe a, um, skier accidental. This slope is elevation on this layer. We just radio it out. You know, and everybody's aware, so that's our first form. And then often what I like to do now is I may split the calms up communications between the group. No point the guide, for example, having all that radio, then I'm in the bottom of the KVA.

[01:07:26] Right, right. Having all the equipment mm-hmm so maybe I keep the radio, I'll give you the N reach. Mm-hmm I show 'em how to operate. Then reach this. You gotta do is say the SOS button. So for example, um, I was guiding on GU BK, uh, Mount Garley, um, 24 kilometer return. And in the car park, I did a quick brief, uh, this is my radio.

[01:07:47] Um, this is the end reach we may or may not have cell. And the party of three was, you know, I'm still concerned about kvass rescue the guide's up front. So basically when we hit the glacier, I did a demo on how to transfer the load to a picket mm-hmm and then hit the SOS on then reach. Right. And I said, I'm either climbing out.

[01:08:08] Or SARS gonna fly out right. Or Ross is gonna fly over from the Tanus. And I said, also here's Ross's number and Ross is gonna fly over. Right. That was part of our emergency action plan. Emergency response plan was that I, I can't expect these clients to haul me out. It's not gonna happen, but I'm gonna climb out, you know, would be my plan.

[01:08:28] Um, and that communications actually came into play. Cuz we were talking about it earlier, was that the clients, um, it was a very big trip. Mm-hmm they weren't given the heli option in and heli option out. Right. And when we just below the summit called the return, walked out and I realized, um, the, you know, the fastest, this trip's been guided has been 10 hours.

[01:08:47] Mm-hmm that recently. And, um, we were on par for an 18 hour day. Right. So I was able to get to high ground with the cell reception and get a call out for the he company. And I, they picked up the clients at the, um, park boundary. Mm. So I loaded them in. Then they were off. 

[01:09:06] Travis Bader: So they're happy, happy aside from the, uh, the extra expense of the helicopter, but that's, uh, they're 

[01:09:11] Jason Budd: happy and they would've liked the heli drop on the way in too.

[01:09:13] Right. That was good. Take away too. Get the heli option. Yes. Both ways, right? Not just, oh, by the way. Hey, there is an alley option out of this. If we need it and I could have done it within and reach, cuz I often have the chief pilots of every company on my end reach mm-hmm and a lot of them like Ben from, um, who's operation manager.

[01:09:31] They're from shout out to Ben black home. Helies um, black home heli Squamish, Whistler. Yep. Um, he's in my end reach and he said, all I need is a long lot and I'll come get you anytime. Nice. Right. And then Darren from black Tuss, same, same sort of deal. Yep. You know, two great pilots and they'll give 'em a long lot.

[01:09:50] Worry about the finance after right? Yeah. You'll owe 'em and you come out. So that's good. Split the columns up the communications right within your group. 

[01:09:59] Travis Bader: Yeah. Communicate the plan to everybody. Split the columns up smart. Um, Fire 

[01:10:04] Jason Budd: warm. Yeah. Navigation, compass Teter last year, 

[01:10:07] Travis Bader: 24 hours. Yeah. And you're golden, you know, I, I find a lot of people can go down the rabbit hole of looking at survival gear and I'll admit I've played with a whole, a whole bunch of different types yeah.

[01:10:19] In the past. And I keep coming back to the basics. It's, uh, it's neat. It looks Gucci, but it's more weight in your pack and it's, uh, I found the heavier, my pack gets the more likelihood I'm gonna find. I'm gonna find myself needing to use all that gear there. Um, so being able to get through the night and get to wherever you need to go, uh, without overdoing all of the, uh, geeking out on all the kit, I think is a smart, 

[01:10:50] Jason Budd: it's smart.

[01:10:51] And, um, you know, one thing we haven't talked about is first aid, what level of first aid kit you should have. Right. And I think it really comes down to the basics like you should turnkey are. The new fad right now. Yeah. They're all 

[01:11:05] Travis Bader: using 'em 

[01:11:05] Jason Budd: again. Yeah. Yeah. I've turn to key my kit. Yeah. Pocket mask. Yeah.

[01:11:10] Is, goes in my kit and, uh, Sams splint. Yep. Um, and that's kinda like the team element and I have some couple major bleeds. Yeah. Um, just like AB 

[01:11:20] Travis Bader: pads or. 

[01:11:22] Jason Budd: You know, like trauma dressing, kinda like head in the military and then, you know, basic stuff after that tape bandaids, um, which are the ones that get used all the time.

[01:11:31] Yeah. And then I always tell people they need a per small personal, like, maybe you need blister kit. Maybe you need like, maybe another bit of tape, things like that. So I'll keep it, maybe the team, like, I don't think we need 10 turning keys out. Mm-hmm we don't need 10 pocket mask. Hopefully mm-hmm mm-hmm so I try to do that.

[01:11:48] Um, I know for myself, I've had some medical problems in the past, like, um, that HPI lower bacteria. Yeah. That was crazy. Did a normal, my guts were ended up with, um, eroding esophagus. Loads of ulcers came the light on the second trip to Natalie with the GI bleed. Right, right. So I carry one thing that aggravates my tummy is.

[01:12:10] Dehydrated food. I love that you call it your tummy. finished, finished term coming home. My tummy chops. Yeah. But, um, due to this, to the ulcers and things. Yeah. Like I've on like dehydrated food is light mm-hmm right. Socks, but it's light. So short trips, we go to that big expeditions. We're gonna bring her more fresh food for first couple weeks, but I've even migrated now.

[01:12:34] I know what my, my, my stomach, yes. Not tell me. um, appreciates. It's I, I really, the only meal I eat for dinner is Mac and cheese now. Yeah. Nothing wrong with Mac and cheese. And it has the same calorie content, a little bit more fat than the others. Yeah. Same protein. And my system digested problems. As soon as I start getting in the lentils, the rice, the meats, it aggravates my stomach.

[01:12:57] So one thing in my own first aid kit now is I carry. Any acid pills. Mm. So for example, if I'm going away on a trip, I start doing the dosage and their prescription. Okay. So there's, I carry seven, yeah. With me on expeditions and stuff. But like, if I'm going away on a trip, I'll start taking the anti acids prior, maybe three, four days, get in the zone.

[01:13:18] I have 'em there on the trip. I'll take 'em during the trip. Um, and I ensure that I won't have any problems with my stomach. Um, three years ago, for whatever reason I started getting migraines. Mm. So, um, one thing with the ulcers, always, I wasn't able to take ibuprofen for years. Mm. So now Tylenol doesn't do the same effect.

[01:13:40] Right? I bef works. Ibuprofen works. So my stomach, my tummy is diligent enough. Now that I can take ibuprofen a lot in one dose, but I can't be on it regularly. So this migraine that came up three years ago, it knocked me out for. In bed for seven days, I've never had migraine in my life. I've had two more attacks this spring.

[01:14:02] Mm-hmm um, doing research, uh, who knew, but like red wine is a migraine in, um, cause and dark chocolate. I think some people knew that. Yeah. And I actually, um, love red wine. Yeah. Don't drink it anymore. Yeah. Both times I've had it twice in migraines in the spring, migraine bad. And so now, um, I find long days with dehydration will trigger cuz a headache and a dehydration headaches different than migraines.

[01:14:34] Right. But I keep. Rapid migraine pills in my first aid get too. So any in inclination, like I can't explain it more than like migraines, like the back of your eyeballs start to hurt. Yep. There's pressure in different places. Um, I just know when I'm having a migraine attack and I actually had one not too long ago, the next day after, um, being out in the Alpine.

[01:14:54] Mm. Um, carrying in it's different than a headache. And I just, so I keep two of those with the anti acid pills. So these are my specialized first aid kit. 

[01:15:04] Travis Bader: And that's dad. That definitely helps with the comfort. Um, no fun being out there in the back country with migraines, I, after, um, a car accident I was in, they sent me to a pain doctor and they were talking about managing pain and, uh, um, ibuprofen works.

[01:15:21] He says you don't chase the pain. You hammer it. Yeah. When, when it comes on, if you feel the migraine something coming on, you don't just take one, you take two extra strength, gel cab, Advils, and hammer. If that doesn't work, do it again. Yeah. And then you, you can small updates as you go through terrible on the stomach.

[01:15:39] I'm sure. Yeah. But, um, but it manages a pain. Yeah. When you're, you know, I, um, buddy Richmond fire, and he was with a group number of years ago and they did, uh, Denali. They didn't get the summit out of it, but, um, uh, he. He was able to get morphine to, uh, take out in up the mountain. Is that something that, uh, anyone's bringing up with him just in case morphine pills?

[01:16:07] Yeah. Or, or did he have a special clinic connection? 

[01:16:09] Jason Budd: He probably did. Maybe some paramedic gotcha. Type level in that probably. I think I knew it was connection. Yeah. Probably I was able to do it. 

[01:16:19] Travis Bader: Okay. I think that's probably, uh, a good now you're, you're spending most of your time in cold weather environments and I know in, uh, In British Columbia here most in Canada, most of the people who are gonna be going out and enjoying the Bush who are interested in, um, hunting or fishing.

[01:16:41] And a lot of that's gonna be in the, uh, the fall seasons or the spring seasons when it's gonna be a bit colder. But they're, uh, warmer does tend to be easier in some respects. So you don't have as much kit with you, but there are other considerations that you were talking about where like dehydration, headaches.

[01:16:58] Jason Budd: Yeah. Like for sure, like this summer heat stroke, our cascades were all high thirties. Yeah. On the, on the glacier. And that's a different, that's a different ke of fish. Yeah. Like knowing how to move on glaciers or hot environment and still move loose layers. I'm all about the sun shirts now. Long sleeve sun shirts.

[01:17:17] BD makes a good one. Yeah. Outdoor research. I had a, uh, a guy on, um, an intro to mountain ear course, short sleeved. Mm-hmm um, Day one snow school, complete lobster. And the day two, we took him out to the Alpine and he was just completely dehydrated. One kid didn't have glacier glasses. Right. Didn't have any sunglasses two days.

[01:17:39] Mm. Right. Things like that. And they learned some really valuable lessons yeah. On this. But yeah, like moving glaciers is actually quite like in Denali. It could be you're in a t-shirt and then it's minus 30 that night. Right. So that's interesting too. Now is the extreme changes. Hmm. Um, stuff. And I were climbing inston and we were trying to go really light.

[01:17:58] We were was just the light over, over bags, which were fine, but it was getting so cold in the Alpine at night. They had to go to our zero sleep bags and, um, It's that sudden change and it usually starts, I find, and I remember also being in the, you know, canyon forces in Wayne Wright August is that sudden change 30 during the day and then almost zero night.

[01:18:20] Right. And that's the change that I find is actually I'm colder then. And then I am minus 10, right? 15 in the winter camping. Mm-hmm right. It's that, that change in the system. Yeah. That's hard to 

[01:18:32] Travis Bader: plan for. Yeah. It's a bit of a shock to the system, plus the humidity in the air for whatever reason when he gets down to.

[01:18:39] Zero when it's humid out, it's it feels colder when it's negative tan. Well, 

[01:18:44] Jason Budd: it's actually scientific cuz people always say, oh, it's, it's a wet cold and isn't right. But there's actually science behind it. Yeah. That the humidity air, when it's colder is actually colder. I believe it, it actually has to do with like, you know, we, we perspire yeah.

[01:18:58] Will be cool. Yeah. And that's exactly what's happening with their humid air. So that's why people Winnipeg always say, oh, you know, west coasts complaining about the, you know, it's cold. like my friend, um, posty came out to spend, um, Christmas, 2003 in Edinburgh. Yeah. And, uh, she was an officer came forces born in Ontario, maybe minus 15.

[01:19:21] Yeah. And it was maybe zero in Edinburgh. Mm-hmm the windy Cindy mm-hmm off the north Atlantic. He had never been so cold. Yeah. At zero. I believe it in Scotland, I believe compared to being minus 15 and it was completely different experience for her, you know? So. Yeah. 

[01:19:37] Travis Bader: Well, why don't, uh, we look at wrapping it up here, if there's anything else that, uh, we should be talking about, I'm sure the listeners will, uh, will write their comments in and, um, and request it.

[01:19:48] But I think those are sort of my main things that I like to have with me. The number one is my mindset, right. And my mindset and survival attitude, like what you're talking about, having the, um, uh, taking the path of least resistance, the safer path between the two, that's something that I've had to learn and I'm still working on still working on it.

[01:20:12] I'm still working on option, right? The safer option. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and that's something that, uh, you know, when you're young and dumb and male ego and all the rest, right. And I can do it and you do, and you figure it out. But that, that little threshold there, that knife's blade that we tend to walk on between life and death.

[01:20:31] Yeah. Yeah. We are very robust, but there is also a very. And we aren't in some ways, right? Yeah. Um, I think those are the biggest things that you can take away from a survival mindset is the attitude and the mindset. Then it comes down to communication. Then it starts coming down to the kit in the order that you gave 

[01:20:51] Jason Budd: and to summarize, to summarize the final point we didn't talk about is fitness.

[01:20:56] Oh yeah. Witness the fitness, right? Yes. So that's critical. Mm. Um, I discovered strength training in my forties. Right. I wish I just did it in my thirties. Right. I didn't tell any of these young guys, like, instead of working out to look good strength training. Right. But that's so critical being able to move fast through the train at a safe speed limits, your exposure and the impact on your body function.

[01:21:23] You do this a long term. Yeah. Right. Uh, key three mountain guide up Whistler was talking about, he must be in his mid sixties and he's an examiner. Hell ski guide still doing it, but he was talking about the young guys are gonna jump off the cliff. Mm-hmm the older guys are gonna ski around the cliff.

[01:21:39] Still get to where you're going. Yeah. Yeah. But as your older age, you're not gonna be dropping off the cliff. Mm you're. Still skiing the slope. Yeah. You're not doing the big drop maybe. So I still find little drops but I'm not doing big drops. Right, right. So I think fitness is so critical. You wanna be able to move fast, limit your exposure and then you don't become a counter to yourself.

[01:22:00] Mm-hmm stroke, cold injury and all that stuff. Right. So fitness is really critical. Yeah. Start small, go big. Yeah. 

[01:22:07] Travis Bader: Fitness. I like it. And it helps a mindset too. Yeah. 

[01:22:10] Jason Budd: Cause you can think. And, and you know, like one I, one trip I did with Brent fairy metals hut and the very first day we went off, Brent likes to get up set the pace first day, we're doing this big, um, big summit and I had the Arteri.

[01:22:23] Um, AIE bag. Yep. And the tear Avy bag was nine pounds. Mm. Plus, all the guide gear I got 30 plus pound bag now. Mm-hmm and I came from sea level mm-hmm we're up in the RO uh, Rogers pass mm-hmm and I was exhausted as the second guide on this trip. And luckily I packed a 30 leader, Arteric alpha, um, Alpine bag.

[01:22:47] Yeah. Yeah. So I could barely get all my guide kit in it, but yes, I'm limiting myself for being in avalanche. Yep. But I have more energy to make conscious correct decisions. I'm more physically in like robustly can lead up front break trail. Yep. And, um, you know, I was just mentally there mm-hmm you know, so that's this big debate about the Avie bag?

[01:23:15] I, I own two Avy bags, maybe three. But , there's a time and a place for it, like ski and I have a Avi bag and I have a touring bag for when the conditions storm indicate to it. Mm. But I mean, we could talk about this on another podcast. Sure. And there is podcasts about it. Yeah. About Avie bag, not AIE bag and the mindset with it.

[01:23:32] Mm-hmm but there is a, there was a time there, like I just ditched eight pounds right away. Made a huge difference for the rest of the trip. Yeah. And 

[01:23:39] Travis Bader: that mindset, well, fitness, like you were saying before, huge changes, how you changes, how you make decisions, changes the outcome of your day. And the reliance on kit is one of those things, relying on a nav bag.

[01:23:54] Well, that's extra weight and I'm going slow, relying on all the cool kit that you found at the store. Um, I, I think really when it comes down to, uh, wilderness survival mindset, um, communications, like, like you were saying there, having enough, proper equipment to survive, not necessarily being, living in the lap of luxury while you're there.

[01:24:20] Jason Budd: Yeah. And that changes like Squamish, a windbreaker mm. Is enough for the night. Yeah. But as we move into fall, then you start, you know, your micro fleece and then mm-hmm, move into your puffy. But going to the Rockies right now, I'm, I'm bringing puffy pants and a puffy jacket. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Spare gloves and everything else.

[01:24:37] So you just gotta do your homework, get the information. It comes back to that. Uncertainty, you know, get more info, increase your margin of safety. Awesome. 

[01:24:48] Travis Bader: Jace, thanks very much for coming on the Silvercore Podcast, time. Number four, number four, looking forward to time's handshake. I do too, right on brother.

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