Catching a fish
episode 60 | Oct 5, 2021
Experts & Industry Leaders
Hunting & Fishing
Outdoor Adventure

Ep. 60: Catching up with April Vokey

Travis Bader and April Vokey catch up and discuss podcasting, social media, ADHD, “toxic masculinity”, and click bait for a cause.
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[00:00:00] Travis Bader: I’m Travis Bader, and this is The Silvercore Podcast. Join me as I discuss matters related to hunting, fishing, and outdoor pursuits with the people in businesses that comprise the community. If you’re a new to Silvercore, be sure to check out our website, we can learn more about courses, services and products that we offer as well as how you can join The Silvercore Club, which includes 10 million in north America wide liability insurance, to ensure you are properly covered during your outdoor adventures.

[00:00:43] Today, I’m joined by my friend and past Silvercore podcast guest April Vokey. April is a world renowned angler, entrepreneur, and all around cool person who traces her humble beginnings to my hometown of Surrey, British Columbia. April, thanks again for coming on this Silvercore Podcast. 

[00:01:01] April Vokey: Thanks for having me. Um, I love talking, or speaking with you and Tiff.

[00:01:06] Travis Bader: Well, you know, I’ve, I’ve been looking forward to getting together with you for some time now, but with you being stuck down under, or as the media would have me believe in the upside down what we’re going to have to settle for a virtual meetup. It’s a, it seems like things are getting a little crazy down under. 

[00:01:22] April Vokey: Uh huh. 

[00:01:23] Travis Bader: Yeah, we can talk about that to.

[00:01:25] April Vokey: We can nav, try to balance that one carefully.

[00:01:28] Travis Bader: Yes. So, you know, with, with Silvercore partnering with you to offer Anchored Outdoors courses, I thought it’d be good to give my audience a chance to get to know you better, but you know, in all likelihood you’ve been on 60 Minutes, you’ve been on the Steve Harvey Show. You’ve been a Meat Eater, Shorelines, and many others. And you only have what? 125,000 followers on Instagram. They probably already know you. 

[00:01:53] April Vokey: Um, Nope. Nope, definitely not everyone knows me. Thank goodness. Yeah. 

[00:01:59] Travis Bader: Well, we were spit balling back and forth, but a few different ideas of, um, uh, of a, value that we can bring to the listeners. And I, and I’m looking at how many podcasts are you in now? You’re like 158 is it?

[00:02:15] April Vokey: No more than that. 

[00:02:16] Travis Bader: 85? 

[00:02:16] April Vokey: In eight, yeah, it’s almost 200 now. 

[00:02:19] Travis Bader: Holy crow. 

[00:02:20] April Vokey: Holy crow. What happened? 

[00:02:22] Travis Bader: So most of that’s you interviewing other people, mind you you’ve been on other people’s podcasts and people get to interview you and you probably talk about the same stories and a lot of the same things coming up and which fly rods the best, how’d you get into fishing.

[00:02:39] April Vokey: Yes. 

[00:02:40] Travis Bader: And I thought I’d take a little bit different approach to this. Um, so I said, tell you what, I got five questions. You come up with five questions. I don’t know what these questions are gonna be. Uh, from you, you don’t know what the questions are going to be from me, but the caveat is, as we both kind of have to answer them, if we’re coming up with it.

[00:02:57] So we really can’t sink the other person. Uh, so I got a question for you. All right. Hit me with it. Okay. Henry David Thoreau has a, has a quote and he says “many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it was not fish that they were after.” Have you heard that mode before? 

[00:03:15] April Vokey: Yes. 

[00:03:17] Travis Bader: Okay. April, what are you after?

[00:03:20] April Vokey: Adventure.

[00:03:22] Travis Bader: Yes? 

[00:03:22] April Vokey: Yeah, that was a question that plagued me for probably 10 years. Honestly, I’d say my late twenties and early thirties, I had this transition in life, as many of us do as we grow up and change and evolve. And I definitely was at, at, I had a moment where I didn’t know why I was doing it anymore, or, you know, the age old question of what makes you happy.

[00:03:44] I was like, well, what, what does make me happy? And I kept coming back to excitement. Being excited makes me happy. Well, what excites me? Adventure is what excites me and therefore makes me happy. So for me, I’m always in search of the next adventure and the next thing that’s going to tickle my fancy. 

[00:04:01] Travis Bader: So how do you define adventure?

[00:04:03] April Vokey: Well, it depends on the season of my life. So now that I’m a mom, my adventure is probably a little more mild because I can’t die, which is always, um, an interesting revelation and actually one that’s really starting to become a very real part of my new reality. I mean, my husband’s 50, I’m 38, well, he’s 49.

[00:04:23] I’m 38. And if we, you know, with all of this stuff that’s happening in the world right now, you just never know what’s going, what could happen. And w and we have a child and I have, I can’t go on an adventure and just die anymore, which sounds really silly. But when you’re younger, there’s something very free knowing that you can go out and live your best life and not come home.

[00:04:47] And that you’re okay with that, but I can no longer, I no longer have the freedom to be okay with that. That would make me selfish. So I’m coming to terms with that recently. So my adventures are a lot more mild. 

[00:05:00] Travis Bader: You know, that, that was one thing that I found. Nothing makes you realize your own mortality, like having kids. 

[00:05:06] April Vokey: That’s right. 

[00:05:08] Travis Bader: It’s weird, but man, the number of times I’ve gone out to do something and that little nagging voice in the back of my head is, will you be okay afterwards? Will your kids remember you as you were? Will they be able to remember you into the future because you’ve been around for them. And it stopped me from doing a number of things that previously I wouldn’t even have thought twice about.

[00:05:32] April Vokey: Right. That’s what I’m talking about. And the other things that it does to your brain. I mean, remember when you and Tiffany were up at my place in Smithers? 

[00:05:41] Travis Bader: Yep. 

[00:05:41] April Vokey: And I’d said to you, listen, I have this suspicion, I’ve got this new black bear on my property, the old black bears gone. I’ve got this new guy and I don’t feel great about him, I fired some shots over him. He’s too gutsy. He’s been watching Adelaide. He sits behind the cabin. I’m not scaring him, I don’t feel great about this bear. Remember that conversation? 

[00:06:00] Travis Bader: I sure do. 

[00:06:00] April Vokey: So it’s been, what, two years now? 

[00:06:02] Travis Bader: Mhmm. 

[00:06:03] April Vokey: Well, wouldn’t, you know, it, he is out there killing sheep and the CO’s have put a trap, they’re trying to get him on the river, but he lives behind my cabin on the property. So there was a time when I would never kill a bear, you know, never. And now I’ve got two buddies and I’ve drawn them out a map of this is the, this is the bed one, this is bed two. This is what, what his pattern is. All of that fun stuff.

[00:06:27] So it changes everything. It changes my it’s, it’s changed my, my morals, it’s changed my planning. It’s changed my adventure. It’s just, it changes everything. 

[00:06:38] Travis Bader: Yeah. And I guess there’s sort of a balance there as well, because, well, I guess you bring up two things which are kind of interesting. Number one is, trust your gut. It really drives you to trust your gut. It’s amazing how many times people will come up and they’ll say, you know, I had a gut feeling about ABC, whatever it was. I thought that person was bad. I thought that animal may have done something, but people don’t act off of it. 

[00:07:03] I found the older you get, the less you start caring about what other people might think about your actions. And if you trust that gut, all of those indicators that you have at that moment that are giving you that gut feeling, those are the things that people look back on and say, I should have known because A, B and C, but the process of rationalizing that through your logical brain.

[00:07:27] I don’t know. I think, I think it’s a step, uh, being a parent, that you just stop caring and you don’t have to rationalize it anymore. It’s in the gut feeling and you just work with it. 

[00:07:38] April Vokey: But do you know, two, two things on that. One, I have a buddy who’s a detective in America and he told me years ago, one of the number one things that he sees with homicide cases that could have been prevented is that the woman verse, we were speaking specifically on women’s safety or safety on women in the world.

[00:07:55] And he was saying that most of the time, the woman knows that she’s entering a situation that she should not be in. Her gut is screaming for her to walk away, run, call for help, anything. And because of what she’s, she’s worried about what society will think of her or being rude or whatever it is, the stigma she’s worried about portraying, she ignores that and therefore, um, often ends up in harm. 

[00:08:19] But the second part of this is, being a relatively newer hunter, I have really opened my eyes in watching animal behaviour. Especially during certain times of the year. I mean, I know it’s not fair to, to speak entirely during the rut because males are an entirely different beast during the rut, but I hunt year round, cause I’m not just looking, um, you know, I don’t just wait for the two week, awesome. Excuse me, time in the rut. 

[00:08:46] Hunting is a year round thing. You’re constantly tracking, figuring out patterns, learning new property, all this stuff. And so I’ve noticed consistently that the females seem to be more in tune with their instincts than the males do, whether it’s goats, deer. Um, I haven’t necessarily found birds maybe, maybe birds.

[00:09:04] I’m not a huge bird hunter, but I have noticed specifically around here with goats and with deer that the females tend to know whats up. They have this weird spidey sense. And so for me, it’s like, well, I mean, maybe I’m not, maybe I I’m reading it wrong, but I know I get busted by females a lot faster than I’m busted by bucks. And it just makes me question as humans, do we, as females also have some sort of peaked spidey sense or instinct when it comes to danger? 

[00:09:37] Travis Bader: You know, I think some were back in our little reptilian brain. We male, female, we all have it, but the male ego will quite often get in the way of, uh, accepting what you’re feeling.

[00:09:50] They call it women’s intuition or guys will have gut feelings. And In order for a man to have a gut feeling, more often than not, the man will sit here and try and rationalize it, or maybe there’ll be driven by other things, hormones or something else that kind of override what that gut feeling might be. It’s interesting that you notice that in wildlife as well. 

[00:10:12] April Vokey: Yeah. Well, I mean, I would say it’s mostly, in my situation, it’s mostly hormones where I have found that because I’m just, I’m thinking now, you know, when I am hunting and I, I, I had to batch up like a bachelor property at buck property and they are pretty onto me.

[00:10:26] I will say they are pretty onto me when they’re all together. But during the rut especially, is when you see that the males are obviously occupied, they’re going through all these chemical changes that’s happening within their bodies. But the females you ever noticed, the way that they sit, even, you know, they’ve got someone on the lookout and. 

[00:10:42] Travis Bader: Right. 

[00:10:43] April Vokey: You know, I even am at the point now where, when I’m trying to sneak up on, you know, a number of deer, I try to tell myself, okay, don’t let that don’t have any intention. Don’t, don’t be thinking that you’re going to kill something right now, because I just don’t know how deep that instinct goes. Can they sense that they’re being preyed upon? I mean, I don’t know. 

[00:11:03] Travis Bader: There’s a lot of people who think you do. I remember one guy was out hunting moose, and he says, uh, he was a European fellow. He’s like, you gotta be thinking happy thoughts when he walks through the bush. Don’t think I’m a hunter, I’m out here, I’m going to harvest something. You got to think I’m happy, I’m just enjoying the bush. He was a very successful hunter, so there might be something to it. 

[00:11:23] April Vokey: Yeah. I don’t know, but we are animals and that does, that’s the key takeaway here. You know, we are animals at the end of the day. And I think that we just shouldn’t be ignoring that gut. How do we get onto that? 

[00:11:35] Travis Bader: I don’t know, but, uh, I’m okay yapping about that. Um, so I think that was all from the Thoreau quote. What drives you? And you talked about taking less risks as you get older. Have you reached a point yet where you looked and say, I want to start taking some more risks. 

[00:11:50] April Vokey: Oh yeah. Like the day after I gave birth. Yeah. I never changed. I think that’s the thing. That’s the big thing is, you know, everyone says, oh, you’re going to change. And for, yeah. I mean, I was the person saying I’ll never change. And I guess we’ve just established that I have changed, but not me, not April the person, I still am just as wild as I was. I’m just not allowed to be as wild as I was. I’d just have to be more responsible, you know, but. 

[00:12:20] Travis Bader: A little bit better containment. 

[00:12:21] April Vokey: Yeah. But yeah, no, I I’m at the point now where I’m ready to get wild and crazy again. Uh, but I’m stuck. I can’t go anywhere. And it sucks because we were all aligned to do all these wild, crazy adventures. And we had started that again when lockdown had lifted and now we’re back in jail.

[00:12:39] Travis Bader: Well, you’ve almost died a few times. I’m, being rafting down the river when your raft overturned and it’s, course that car accident you were in was, uh, was, you’re pretty lucky to walk away from. 

[00:12:52] April Vokey: Big time. 

[00:12:52] Travis Bader: Did you have other experiences like that? 

[00:12:54] April Vokey: Oh, I think the usual, you know, I’ve had a lot of bear encounters when I used to guide on the Dean. We were in Tweedsmuir. So surrounded by grizzly bears, I’ve been charged. Um, I can’t think of anything that’s too obvious. You know, I haven’t had, it’s not like I’ve wrestled a Cougar or anything, or any of the stories that some of your guests have done, but you know, it’s just part of the, it’s just part of the experience. If you’re going to be out in the bush, it’s, that’s just part of the gamble. 

[00:13:22] Travis Bader: Yeah. You know, I’ve before having kids, I said, tell you what we’ve made the decision gonna have kids, my life is on hold. I’m going to live 100% for them. Now that my kids are getting a little bit older, I’m looking and saying maybe that wasn’t entirely the right decision, because there’s definitely a lot in yourself that you need to feed so you can provide the best possible you to your kids. And so we find ourselves going out on more and more adventures and as they get older, they’re now accompanying you on those adventures. 

[00:13:52] April Vokey: I must be a horribly selfish human because I never thought that. And I, and I will admit if we’re being totally honest. And because we’re friends, I went through a bit of guilt because I kept waiting for that thing to happen.

[00:14:05] You never, I kept saying you’re going to change. So I kept waiting for this change to happen. And I kept waiting to put her life first and it would be all about her and it just never happened. And then I realized it’s because I had a child too, because I finally felt like I was ready as a woman to give a person on this planet, the best that I’d had.

[00:14:25] I mean, I’ve been working for 40 years to be the best self, you know, my, my best self. I can’t, if I lost all that and just totally abandoned all of these years of work and was overshadowed in this, you know, societal stigma of what motherhood should be. Then I knew I was going to actually deprive my daughter of all of the things that I’d worked so hard to pass onto her.

[00:14:48] So to me, it was almost like I gave birth to this little by little compadre and yes, I’m responsible for her and I love her more than anything, but she’s, um, I’m not ready to give up my life yet. Does that make me a horribly selfish human? 

[00:15:03] Travis Bader: No, I don’t think so. I don’t think so. I think the whole idea of giving up your life in order to live for the kids is, uh, was probably a little too far on the end of the spectrum of my, my iod, ideology is definitely come on back because you need to have something that you’re continually developing in yourself to be able to share with the little ones that you’re bringing into this world.

[00:15:24] I don’t think, I think you’re just a little bit more rational than I was in my approach to, uh, into all of that. 

[00:15:30] April Vokey: But you were a young parent, right? How old were you when you guys?

[00:15:34] Travis Bader: Good question. Uh, lets see, uh if I ,2007 had the first one. So what would that make me? I don’t even know how old I am. People ask me how old are you? I don’t know. I was born in 1978 and I do the math. I think that’s 43 now. Uh, so 43, takeaway 14. So I would have been yeah, 29. Yeah. 

[00:15:53] April Vokey: And what a time. 

[00:15:54] Travis Bader: I don’t know if that’s young. 

[00:15:55] April Vokey: But 29 is such an interesting time. And I don’t know if it’s the same for men, but I know myself and my friends, 29, 29 to 34 was huge. That was a huge pivot. Uh, just, uh, a big change in our, in many of our lives. So, I mean, I don’t know. Maybe there was, maybe it has something to do with that, may. There’s a lot of reasons, but here’s my question for you. Now, let me throw this back at you. Here’s one of my five. 

[00:16:21] If you, looking back now and do it being so responsible, because when you tell me you’re 43, it makes me it does, it makes me go, oh my gosh. I mean, you guys have it, you guys are so together. You and Tiffany are so together. When I think of people, I really look up to as entrepreneurial husband, wives, parents. I honest to goodness, conservationist, I think of you guys. I really do. 

[00:16:46] Travis Bader: I’m deeply flattered. I put on a very good illusion I guess.

[00:16:51] April Vokey: But there’s only four years between us that I feel like you’re 25 years older than I am. Looking back now in all of that responsibility that you’ve taken on, do you feel like in your twenties and your thirties say you missed out on something that you would change now, if you could go back. 

[00:17:10] Travis Bader: Ooh, that’s a good question. So in some aspects, no. So when I look back into my younger years, I was not excelling in school. It just wasn’t the thing for me. And in fact, I was politely asked to leave several different schools. I think I had five different high schools and went to a couple of different, uh, elementary schools. It just wasn’t for me. 

[00:17:36] But I looked at some of my friends who were going on to post-secondary education and or career trades training, and they were getting their life in order at such an early age. And they were earning and they were, uh, being able to acquire all the things that at that age you figure you should have, right. They’ve got a vehicle and there they’ve got a place that they’re getting. 

[00:17:57] And I, I didn’t have that. I kind of floundered or foundered, whatever the word is, in school and I got out and I just, I was all over the board, ADHD kicking in. I was working several different jobs and, and trying to build my own. And finally, I reached a point. I said, you know what? I want to retire when I’m 32, I want to be able to have mortgage paid off, be able to retire by the age of 32. How do I do that? 

[00:18:26] And I started looking at different business models that I could possibly take on. And I came to the conclusion that whatever I do, it’s going to require all of my effort, 110%. And I’m not going to be able to have the benefit of a, sort of an education roadmap. Like some people go to business school and they know one plus one equals two. I know the path, they know the formula for generating a livelihood, but I knew I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t thrive in that setting. 

[00:18:58] And I would once again, be the same as my previous schooling experiences. So I really did approach it from a school of hard knocks and just nose to the grindstone sort of way. Um, and I was fortunate enough to be successful at an early age, more through pure determination than anything else. I mean, if I wanted to be able to make X amount of money at the end of the month, I would find a way to be able to do that.

[00:19:28] Now that might’ve been, let’s say I make a hundred dollars in one month, but I worked every single hour of at each day in order to make that, I can do that, but I would look back and say, does the ends justify the means? Like, was it all worth it? So when I look back, did I miss anything? In some respects, I started giving up all of my evenings and all of my weekends, because I was providing training to people who, when that was their free time.

[00:19:54] So I missed out on some of this stuff on weekends and evenings, but to be honest, that was never. That was never something that was a true driver for me. Like I worked in nightclubs as a bouncer, but aside from that, I didn’t find joy or pleasure in going out, partying it up. And I never really wanted to be the weekend warrior with everybody else and all the other crowds.

[00:20:17] So I, I can’t say I missed too much there. When you talk about a pivotal point in your thirties, my thirties were a blur. I mean, I, I spent eight years from about 29 onwards, uh, just in a blur, just trying madly to keep the business afloat and keep things running and, and, uh, fighting different fights. And just, there was a lot of difficulties and strains during that time.

[00:20:46] So I really don’t have much of a thirties when, when you mentioned that and it sounds weird, but I feel like I’ve missed most of that period. And that was a by-product of being an entrepreneur, I think, and not necessarily taking the precautions as an entrepreneur entrepreneur that’s needed in order to protect yourself from outside parties that may wish to try and do what you’re doing.

[00:21:15] And so that, that, from that perspective, I think it was probably a very necessary point of my learning process to have that, but not one I’d ever want to have repeated. I don’t know if that answers the question. 

[00:21:30] April Vokey: Yeah, it does. It’s it’s funny, you know, you have to invest, everything’s an investment, right? So you’re investing the time to be able to play later. Right. So work hard now, play hard later, all of that stuff. But I’d be very curious if, because a lot of things happen emotionally, right? When you’re young and running around and traveling and just being, especially in your thirties. So I’m going to be watching you very closely for a midlife crisis. I’m going to see what happens in your fifties.

[00:22:01] Travis Bader: Somehow. I can’t see a midlife crisis, a friend of mine, he talked me into, um, he says, you gotta get your motorcycle license. And it just so turns out that a school that I taught out of back in my early twenties, a fellow there, he’s their, their lead instructor, brilliant instructor, really great guy runs a school. 

[00:22:20] Uh, he says Trav, come on in, come on, you gotta get your motorcycle license. I think that’s the closest to a midlife crisis. And of all of that, I’ve, you know, I enjoy riding motorcycles, but I got no desire to be able to drive around in the lower mainland. Seeing, seeing too many of the adverse side effects of that one. 

[00:22:39] April Vokey: Yeah. 

[00:22:40] Travis Bader: Yeah, yeah. That’s that, that is a good one. How about you would, uh, you’ve I mean, like you’ve worked your butt off. You have been so passionate towards every endeavour that you’ve just jumped feet first into it. Do you look back and say, man, I wish I tempered myself a little bit. 

[00:23:00] April Vokey: No. I was always a workaholic. I mean, from date, from the beginning, from the first, I was a workaholic before it was allowed to work. I mean, I remember taking my babysitting course when I was a kid and printing out cards and door to door and I was trying to pick up as many shifts as possible. And I would’ve been, I would’ve been what 11, I mean, just a total kid.

[00:23:20] Sorry, I’m going to just shut this email down. And um, and then from there, you know, going to work in restaurants from the age of 13, I think it was 13, 15, whenever you’re, whenever you’re allowed to work. And as soon as that happened, I was working two jobs. And then, uh, I started my first business at 21 and I’ve always just, it gets me off.

[00:23:40] I love working, but, but I’ve always played hard in the day and I’ve always worked hard at night and my sacrifice has always been sleep. So I sacrifice sleep. And so looking back now, it’s hard to regret sacrificing sleep because all you do is have a good night’s sleep and you forget that you sacrifice sleep. 

[00:23:59] Travis Bader: Totally.

[00:24:00] April Vokey: So it’s, I don’t feel like I’ve given anything up. 

[00:24:03] Travis Bader: Well, what was it that drove you to work? Was it the money? 

[00:24:07] April Vokey: I think so, at first. 

[00:24:09] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[00:24:09] April Vokey: I think I want to security and stability. So I, uh, my strategy a friend asked me this the other day, what’s your strategy? And my strategy has always been that I’m a long-term player. So I’ve always, I mean, I started investing at 16, right. I was always looking very, very long in the future. I’m always looking way ahead. And so I think for me, um, you know, I was driven by being prepared to have all of the chess pieces in place so that when I was in my forties, I could relax, which is ironic because now I probably work harder than ever.

[00:24:40] But I think it’s because I just love it so much. And I’m finally on to a business plan that is really working and I love it and it’s satisfying and it’s just, I’m, I’ve never been so fulfilled as I am right now. But, um, I, it was probably about having security and money so that I could fish all the time.

[00:24:58] Right. I never wanted to be loaded, but I wanted to have enough money so that I could do what I wanted in the daytime. And that was at the time fish, now more recently, fish and hunt. Um, but then, you know, a couple of things happened in my life and, um, you know, one day I did actually wake up to some money.

[00:25:17] Some things had happened and I woke up to money in my account and it didn’t change anything, nothing changed. I didn’t feel any better. I didn’t feel any more relieved. I didn’t feel any less stressed out, like nothing changed. And that was when I thought, okay, so why am I doing this? And, um, part of the problem is my brain goes a million miles an hour.

[00:25:38] I’m like you, right. My brain just, but it’s, it’s just constantly, can’t sleep at night. And that’s one of the reasons why I’ve always worked at night. I just cannot sleep at night, I thrive best off five hours of sleep. My brain just. Stop. Right. And so, um, I just need to keep it busy to be totally honest and what better way to do it than to do it with the business that you love and you’re passionate about, and that does help support you and does help bring income to your family.

[00:26:08] Um, and like I said, in more recent years built a community of people that you really enjoy hanging out with. 

[00:26:15] Travis Bader: I like that. And you know, even though you said that money was probably the motivator from a young age, when you’re talking there, it didn’t sound like it was money that was a motivator, but the proceeds of money, what money will bring you, and that brings you your hobby, that brings you the security that brings you.

[00:26:30] April Vokey: Time. Time was, I wanted time. I wanted to be able to have enough money so that I could use my time. 

[00:26:40] Travis Bader: So what was it that Rockefeller said, I think it was a reporter that asked him. It says, how much is enough? And he says just $1 more. Right? Always more, always want more. And there’s at, there’s always this drive within certain people to want to build more, to create more, to have more time, whatever it might be. 

[00:27:00] But at some point this will all end that, that time will end. Do you feel like right now, you are dedicating the appropriate amount of time in your day to what’s really important? Do you? 

[00:27:17] April Vokey: Oh are you asking me that right now? 

[00:27:18] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[00:27:19] April Vokey: Oh, well, it’s a really tricky time right now because it’s, we’re in lockdown and have been for like a year, by the way. 

[00:27:24] Travis Bader: I know. 

[00:27:25] April Vokey: I mean, yeah, we get, we get like two weeks here and there, but we are, we are in a very, very strange time and I’m, I’m starting to forget what normal felt like to be honest. And so right now, no, I don’t feel like any of those things are, are happening, but I’m also quite literally a prisoner in my own home. I love my home. 

[00:27:46] Travis Bader: What does your lockdown look like? 

[00:27:47] April Vokey: Oh you can’t, you can’t leave the house. So I know the media was making it seem pretty crazy. There were helicopters above telling people to get inside and there are helicopters telling people to get inside, but right now, as it stands, it’s absolutely asinine. I mean, I can’t meet a friend at the park with kids. I can’t even. 

[00:28:05] Travis Bader: Wow. 

[00:28:05] April Vokey: Meet a friend at the park with children. They’re changing it. So now for vaccinated, we can hang out together in the park, but, and again, this is a very slippery slope and probably not the right platform for this. And I am certainly not the right person to speak on this, but it is crazy. And I’ve told Charles I will give it, I understand Canada or BC has got an, a mandate coming in soon, mid September. 

[00:28:27] Travis Bader: I think it’s the 13th. We’ve got a, uh, uh, COVID passport that they’ve proposed and say it’s coming in. 

[00:28:34] April Vokey: I’m going to very patiently wait and see what happens. And I’ve told Charles that come November I’m leaving. But right now, so the reason why we haven’t left is it’s illegal for an Australian citizen to leave the country and has been for almost two years, by the way. So.

[00:28:48] Travis Bader: So Charles can’t leave. 

[00:28:49] April Vokey: He can’t leave. So I can, with Adelaide and we can leave. But the problem is is that even if we apply for a permit to come back, because I’m not a citizen here, I’m a Canadian citizen. There’s no guarantee that we can get back before 10 months. And so that’s a long time away from picking my daughter away from her father, which I would never do to her because for all she knows, everything’s normal. We’ve played things very, very, very normal for her. 

[00:29:14] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[00:29:14] April Vokey: But 10 months away from her father is not normal. And then, and then I’d have to do two weeks quarantine with a three-year-old in a hotel, which just is also not normal. So, um, this is a time where I’ve definitely put her and my family first. And, um, and I don’t mind cause I stay busy with work and we, we do live in the country here. 

[00:29:35] So there’s lots to do, but, um, I don’t know how much more of it I can take Travis. It starts to weigh on your mental. I mean, there was, there was, it was just on the news the other day. There is a remote community of Aboriginal people who called to say, we can’t get food. And the government, whoever they’d called had said call Uber eats, they’re in the middle of nowhere.

[00:29:59] So somebody went out and shot a kangaroo to feed the community. And they were told by the government that that had to stop. I think w they must’ve been either selling it or give at, there was something that broke the law about wild meat, that it wasn’t fit that wild game meat wasn’t fit for human consumption.

[00:30:18] So if that doesn’t start to drive a person a little bit mental, I don’t know what, what will, so I’m hanging on, but I probably have about two months in me before I start to crack I think. 

[00:30:29] Travis Bader: I tell ya, you know, I, I did a podcast a couple of days ago with a, a fellow super nice guy, uh, ex British Special Forces, Commando, uh, intelligence, um, worked as a spy and corporate spy and a really interesting backstory.

[00:30:47] You know, he was talking about his concern being the way that the information is being disseminated and how discussion around, whether it be lockdowns or passports or COVID in general is not being permitted. And he says, you know, from a military intelligence standpoint, there’s a lot of things that are raising his concern because they’re very similar to what countries will do to third world countries in order to, to, to feed information or misinformation. 

[00:31:19] He says, I don’t have the answers. I don’t know what the answers are. I don’t think anybody on the internet is going to have the answers for you, but the fact that the conversation is so stifled without somebody being called, uh, an anti-vaxxer or, um, flat earth or whatever it might be, he says that’s a very, very concerning thing from his standpoint. I don’t know. It’s um, it is getting a little bit, uh, disconcerning when I, when I look at what’s going on. 

[00:31:52] April Vokey: Yep. And that that’s, I just taking it all in right now, just learning, just watching it all, learning, trying to keep business afloat, trying to raise a daughter, trying to stay sane and just listening to it all. So it’ll be very interesting. I think the next two months are going to be very telling.

[00:32:10] Travis Bader: Why the next few months. 

[00:32:11] April Vokey: I think that September, middle of September is going to be a very telling time in Canada. So I’m curious to see how that unrolls, I think that from what I’ve seen anyway, it looks like cases are ramping up in America. And I think that that’s going to bring about some policy that is probably going to upset some people. 

[00:32:29] And I know that Australia is at its breaking point right now. Um, and, and this lockdown is also set to end in at the end of September. And so if that doesn’t happen and it extends into October, it’s all just going to be a big mashup. So I’m just, I think the next realistically is probably the next month, but I always like to give myself some padding. So I’m going to say two months. 

[00:32:51] Travis Bader: Two months, I think you’re probably onto something there. I think as we take a look at the, uh, the numbers and the trends that we’ve seen in the past, uh, you’re going to start seeing in areas where they, they figure there’s no issue or issues starting to arise.

[00:33:07] April Vokey: Yep. So we’ll just see what happens, but, um, but yeah, the work is keeping and that’s one of the other reasons why I want to continue to work. I go to work every day on my, on my work. I have an online company and I really genuinely love the people I work with. And I’m a huge proponent and fan of online learning.

[00:33:25] I use it for everything. I use it. I, I spent a fortune on online learning from gardening to taking classes on cryptocurrency and understanding investing. I just love investing in online education. And so I get to go to work everyday with an amazing community and create online content to help myself and others really be able to thrive in certain outdoor scenario’s. So for me right now work, if I didn’t have work right now, I would be going, I think a little bit out of my mind. 

[00:33:55] Travis Bader: Fair enough. Well, maybe I’ll leave the COVID stuff for a little bit, but when this one comes out in a few weeks after it’s been recorded here, we’ll, uh, we’ll be closer to that a one month, two month period here. It’ll be interesting to see. 

[00:34:10] April Vokey: Indeed. 

[00:34:12] Travis Bader: Okay. 

[00:34:12] April Vokey: What’s your next question? 

[00:34:16] Travis Bader: I got it right here. You’re a role model for a lot of people. You are followed by 125,000 people on Instagram. You’ve got people following you in your training programs, through social media, through TV. Do you see yourself as a role model. 

[00:34:37] April Vokey: No. 

[00:34:38] Travis Bader: And. 

[00:34:38] April Vokey: Sorry. 

[00:34:39] Travis Bader: Does it. 

[00:34:39] April Vokey: Didn’t mean to cut you off. 

[00:34:40] Travis Bader: Does it shape how you behave and present yourself?

[00:34:43] April Vokey: Yes and no. So, um, I don’t think that that social media following really carries any merit and I have a number of reasons on that. I mean, I’m sure when people first started following me on social media, it’s because I was a woman who fished that doesn’t make me, it doesn’t make me a role model. It just makes me a woman who fishes.

[00:35:02] Um, you know, more recently I’ve had a lot of outdoor parents follow me because they want to see how to navigate that with their child outdoors. Does that make me a role model? No, I’d say it makes me a pretty like-minded outdoor parent and it makes us a community. Uh, now when it comes to being more responsible, as far as being April Vokey the brand, because sometimes I’ve had to, you know, call myself that because if you’re trying to shop yourself for television or you’re trying to shop yourself for even teaching workshops or speaking at clubs or, or writing articles, you know, you are selling yourself that I always knew that I came with a level of.

[00:35:41] Um, contention, I guess some people are like, maybe I had some controversy behind me just because I have been in the spotlight for so long. I was in the spotlight when I was younger, doing stupid things and not, not that stupid, but you know, just being one of the first young woman on Facebook, as, as a young, we spoke about this when I was on your show last time. You know, it’s just people, don’t always like you when you’re in your early twenties and I can’t blame them.

[00:36:07] So, but by moving forward to now, you know, as a woman who is almost 40 and is beyond just April Vokey, now I’m Anchored Outdoors. I have a community to run and a membership to run. Now I feel a level of responsibility because now I actually know who my audience is now. My audience, I have several thousand members who are my community and my people, and they’re watching me.

[00:36:31] And I do feel a responsibility, not as a role model, but as, as a part of that community or as the moderator of that community. Yes. I do feel a level of responsibility. 

[00:36:43] Travis Bader: Interesting. And of, have you felt a changed how you act? 

[00:36:47] April Vokey: Yeah, I’m not as controversial as I used to be. I didn’t use to stir the pot for, for traffic. That was never even a thing then. Um, I, I stirred the pot because for me, it made people think, and that was why I stirred the pot. But that was also before I had a podcast. And it was before I had a voice. So I had to get my point across with social media, which made you want to bash your head against the wall because people don’t pay attention for longer than eight seconds anyway, or via articles, which is always hard because there’s always more to the story.

[00:37:22] So now that I found a voice though, and I have a podcast and I have an avenue and a way to have these long form conversation, it’s allowed me to be a lot less controversial and a lot less provocative because I now have time to get my point across. And I now have time to let all the words come out in the conversation.

[00:37:42] So it has as have I, has it been my audience and the community that’s made me smarten up and be less of a shitster, no, it’s having a platform to actually have long form conversation. That’s allowed me to settle in to not always having to stir the pot and just let the organic long-form. I keep saying long-form conversation, but that’s because I think that that’s what we’re missing.

[00:38:05] And I, and I think that that’s what we need to really help navigate through a lot of the trying times that we’re having right now. 

[00:38:11] Travis Bader: I find the desire for long form is more and more. You know, when I started my podcast, my very first podcast I ever truly listened to was yours at the MeatEater episode down in Seattle. I think that was, uh, oh geez. How long? That was the number of years ago where i, I had no time or patience for, uh, for podcasts. I consume most of my information by reading or through YouTube and with my office being a 10 minute walk away. 

[00:38:41] And my studio being a 10 minute drive away and my home office, who’s got time to listen to a podcast, but I’m finding more and more people are growing tired of the quick clickbait, old clickbait that used to work doesn’t. People are seeking, I think they’re seeking emotion. They’re seeking some sort of a, um, an intellectual or emotional connection to whatever it might be that they’re consuming. And I find that on a greater and greater basis. 

[00:39:12] And I don’t know if that’s just because the way that people interact has been so, um, so changed through basic technology and texting and, and, and all the rest. Or if that’s a direct relation to being locked down for so long and people just, they want to, they want to feel something real. And I, I, I’m getting so many people commenting and saying, Travis, you’re longer, the longer you go. Cause I used to keep these around 40 minutes. I seem to remember somebody telling me 40 minutes is about the, uh, the timeframe, the key frame that you want to keep your podcasts. And I thought, okay, 40 minutes to an hour thats max. Now um, I’ll just, I’ll let them go. And we’ll see where it goes and people seem to be enjoying that.

[00:39:57] April Vokey: Yeah. And I think that they’ve always enjoyed it even before lockdown. I know my season, I think I’m in season seven and they’ve always gone on and on and, you know, sometimes maybe they drone on, but I really do believe that it’s the one way that we can really truly get the whole story these days, because where else are you going to get it?

[00:40:15] I mean, I’ve worked in television. I assure you that is, that don’t even get me started on that. But the amount of stuff that hits the editing floor that you never see, um, you know, trying to work around commercial breaks also clickbait, not necessarily to click, but to keep you tuning in. So you don’t change a channel.

[00:40:31] Um, just, I mean, clickbait is sums it up for so many of these, of these platforms, whether it’s social media, whether it’s a news article that you’re reading, whether it’s television, but podcasts are, they seem to be our last form of this sort of, you know, unedited, truly authentic conversation. So, and that brings you back to my initial point.

[00:40:55] I’ve seen a lot of my peers start to feel like they have to be less provocative in the way of stirring the pot and getting people all riled up for clickbait. I mean, there was a time when I used to, if I wanted to get people on board for the conservation, um, project or a conservation focus, I would try to post a picture of myself.

[00:41:17] I’ve never been like a bikini babe, but I would try to post a picture of myself that would get people to look like if you’re scrolling, you’re going to look, whether it’s to hate me or to love me, I needed you to stop, but I needed you to stop because I needed you to read the caption and then read the comments, which were always about the conservation.

[00:41:34] Right. But I needed that clickbait to stop you. I know myself and a lot of peers have stopped needing to clickbait because we just, they call me now, the biologist called me. I’ve had government call me and say time to hop on a podcast. So that is very refreshing that we no longer have to, you know, stoop to our hot photos of us being blonde in our twenties.

[00:41:54] Cause we know that we can just hop on a podcast and people will be generally quite receptive to it. 

[00:42:01] Travis Bader: But you’re at your place right now because you’ve taken that route in the past. Love it, hate it. People for it, against it. Would you change how you got to where you currently are now? Or do you think that. 

[00:42:14] April Vokey: No. 

[00:42:15] Travis Bader: It still is, is a path that, is one that you’d recommend to others?

[00:42:21] April Vokey: Oh, as far as, um, click-baiting yourself. 

[00:42:23] Travis Bader: Right. 

[00:42:26] April Vokey: I don’t think it’s necessary anymore. I mean, I mean, maybe it is for someone who doesn’t have a platform like this or doesn’t have a podcast, maybe it is. I think that there are always ways that you can do it that are still modest and humble. I was like, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t suggest that you take off your pants and post a picture of your bum. Which I see people do, um, or, you know, crazy twerking moves to get people to stop scrolling. 

[00:42:48] I think that there are a number of, of wholesome ways that you can do it. And I would like to just preface this by saying what, or go back and say, when I was posting pictures for clickbait, I mean, what was considered provocative would be me in a pink cardigan with a pink hat on with blonde hair. I wasn’t doing anything. I was just different, looking. 

[00:43:11] Travis Bader: Right. 

[00:43:11] April Vokey: You know, or I had God forbid back then mascara on, which was a really big deal back then. Um, so it would, you know, stop people because who is she? Why is she fishing wearing makeup? It’s not a big deal now, but back then it was. And so, yes. Um, you know what I would, I change that.

[00:43:26] Absolutely not. That’s exactly who I was back then. It’s not like I put all that stuff on or dyed my hair blonde to go fishing. I was, as we’ve discussed before I was caught, you know, serving, I was a cocktail server and a casino. That’s just what I look like. 

[00:43:37] Travis Bader: Right. 

[00:43:38] April Vokey: Um, so no, I wouldn’t change any of that. I, I wouldn’t change a thing. 

[00:43:43] Travis Bader: But what would you recommend to other people at via path that you would take?

[00:43:47] April Vokey: Yes. No, both, depends what it is. 

[00:43:51] Travis Bader: Yeah, okay. 

[00:43:51] April Vokey: So, you know, if you’re, if you’re a young, if you’re a young babe, man or woman, right. And you’ve got a photo of yourself and you think then you’ve got a message that you really need to get out like now. And you think that posting that photo, let’s just talk social media. Cause it’s easy. 

[00:44:08] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[00:44:08] April Vokey: That posting, that photo is going to stop people right away and somehow drive them to that petition link or to that, that, that PDF or whatever it is that you need to get them to. And it’s wholesome enough. I mean, but it’s makes people stop then yes. But sometimes the best option is to post a picture of a Steelheads face.

[00:44:25] Maybe that’s, what’s going to get them to stop. So read your audience and do what you have to do to get them to stop within, within reason. So I, would I suggest people to do what I did back then, as far as being wholesome, but choosing a photo that made people stop. Sure. Would I suggest you take your clothes off, uh, and violate your own integrity? No, definitely not. 

[00:44:44] Travis Bader: Right. 

[00:44:46] April Vokey: What about you? Have you been in a situation where, because listen, all business owners get in a situation where they need to drive traffic and we go through all the things in our heads, right? It’s like, okay, if we’re not going to pimp ourselves out, are we going to team up with an influencer?

[00:45:04] Are we going to team up with another brand? Are we going to try to be controversial? Are we going to work with this organization? Are we going to step on the side of politics? Are we not going to step on this side of politics? Have you been in a situation yet, where you felt like you had to drive yourself to one of those factors to get your point across?

[00:45:25] Travis Bader: No, I haven’t actually had a situation where I have had to, uh, where I’ve had to really try to drive myself in a way that might be contrary to how I normally would do it. I have actually found myself in more situations where I’ll stubbornly do the opposite, where people will ask for certain things to be able to, uh, in order, certain contracts that we’ve come up with and they want to see a, B and C, I guess, working outside of the TV world.

[00:46:06] We, like in the Hollywood world, which I’ve done a little bit of work with some people in, in media, man, the requests can be weird. The, um, uh, the dynamic can be really weird and you really, really have to stick close to your guns. Uh, if you don’t want to compromise your integrity. So I haven’t found myself in that many situations at all, where I’ve had, or I’ve been asked to do something, which would be contrary to how it normally comport myself. I, I guess maybe it. 

[00:46:43] April Vokey: Here’s a question for you. Bear attack, you have a podcast about a bear attack. 

[00:46:49] Travis Bader: Yep. 

[00:46:50] April Vokey: What image, and this is different because it’s not trying to drive traffic to conservation. 

[00:46:54] Travis Bader: Ahh. 

[00:46:54] April Vokey: This is driving traffic to sales, but so what image. 

[00:46:56] Travis Bader: Okay. 

[00:46:57] April Vokey: Do you use to try to drive traffic to your bear attack podcast? 

[00:47:01] Travis Bader: That is a good question. So when we start talking about thumbnails for the, uh, uh, let’s say on, on YouTube, or I did a, I’ve done, uh, Colin Dowler attacked by a bear, put an image up. It was a picture of me and Colin and we’re standing beside each other on a bit of an incline. And, uh, I mean the guy I’m 6’6″, 250. And I mean, I, I put him up on an incline beside me and I still look like Sasquatch, right beside him.

[00:47:30] I mean, this guy is a smaller fellow. I think he weigh’s 125 pounds and that’s his fightin’ weight. And, um, mind you, the guy fought off a grizzly bear. And so I thought this is a great picture, throw this thing up and it just wasn’t getting the traction I want. So, you know, what’s a picture up right now, a great big old snarling grizzly bear because people will look at this and say whoa, look at that scary grizzly bear. Maybe I should listen to this. 

[00:47:57] So yes, I can definitely see where you’re going on that one in the same way that a, I did a podcast with a friend of mine who did SAS selection, twice actually. And he was in the British army and, uh, doing some really interesting stuff. And although we talked about everything under the sun, I knew that people will want to listen to his story only if they can see the SAS selection to kind of get them in to the, uh, to click on it, to get in there. So, yeah, I can definitely see where that game is played. 

[00:48:34] April Vokey: So yeah, so you have, so you have experienced it to some degree and listen, I’ve worked with various news outlets or media outlets where it kills them at the core to have to focus on things like bear attacks and other stories that drive traffic. They want to be covering other topics that aren’t clickbait, but they are for one reason or another forced to, you know, by the powers that be, um, focus on things that will drive traffic. And therefore up their, their views. 

[00:49:08] Travis Bader: I could see that I, you know, I guess the closest I’ve ever been to having people say, I want you to do ABC, or I want you to say something. I, I, I do work with different law firms. I do consulting. And sometimes some lawyers will turn around and say, well, would it be fair if you said AB and they’ll try and reframe or rephrase whatever it is that you are presenting as a court expert. And you have to be very, very, uh, attune to exactly what it is you’re saying, and not allow other people to try and manipulate what it is that’s coming out.

[00:49:45] So there’s been some that have hired me to do work for them when, in fact what you’re doing is acting as a subject matter expert for the courts and not for them. And so you always just have to keep that in the back of your head and regardless of how they want it framed. And there’s been times when I’ve put together reports, which are completely contradictory to what it is that I know their client or they wanted to get, and they’ve worked up and down to try and get something that at least was usable for their, for their case or their defence.

[00:50:20] And you have to be, you have to be very, very sure of what your messaging is and just stick to what your gut is, because once you are influenced to maybe change or maybe agree, or maybe it’s a grey area and you can see it from another side, I personally feel that it’ll be easier and easier as you continue down to perhaps look at things from different perspectives and be influenced out of it as you go forward.

[00:50:49] So I can see areas within my spectrum of work, where people have would very much like me to say one thing and I’ve had to very consciously, uh, stick to what I know to be true. And to borrow from liberal speak, I have to speak my truth. 

[00:51:09] April Vokey: Right, that is. 

[00:51:10] Travis Bader: Which one lawyer says, don’t say that because that would imply that there is more than one truth. 

[00:51:16] April Vokey: Yeah, yeah, it’s true. 

[00:51:18] Travis Bader: Anyways.

[00:51:19] April Vokey: So what’s your a and I do, and I just want to make it very, very clear. I have two very separate mentalities when it comes to sales for my company and marketing for my company, versus trying to urgently get people to a conservation issue. To me, they’re very, very, very separate things. Um, because again, I’m always looking at business as a long-term game, but often with con with, with co with conservation, even though it is also long-term most of the time I’m reached out to you with real urgent matters. And so I need to get people people’s attention now.

[00:51:55] Travis Bader: Right. Yeah. I like what you say about business being a long-term game. I think people who look at it in the short term, and I know some people like that, I’ve seen them make millions. I’ve seen them lose millions and I’ve seen them do it over and over again.

[00:52:10] And, uh, one good friend of mine, he’s built so many businesses and he’s made so much money and he’s lost so much money. Uh, he’s finally taken a different approach, looked at a long-term and man he’s built something that here in Canada is worth millions. 

[00:52:28] April Vokey: Oh good. 

[00:52:28] Travis Bader: And it was only because he, he finally took the, uh, the approach of, look at it as a long journey. And I mean, even in what you’re building, in your training and your, your members and your community that you’re building, I think you’re like me and perhaps the desire and the impatient ness, can speed up. And you’re like, I want all of this now I want to have, I want to be able to provide the absolute best for the community and have everything that they need right now.

[00:53:01] But that process of growing and building is what’s going to make the community strong and it’s going to be what builds massive value later on down the road. So you can look at retiring or. 

[00:53:16] April Vokey: And it being authentic. I mean, authenticity is so important for me when it comes to business. And I spoke about this before. I don’t know if I’ve mentioned it to you, but prime example of business and clickbait and driving traffic now. It would be very easy for me to hire instructors who’ve got large social media followings. But. 

[00:53:35] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[00:53:36] April Vokey: That would go entirely against my business model of being authentic and playing, you know, long-term or, or striving for longterm, uh, results. And, and, and I believe that authenticity and long-term go hand in hand. I think that they’re one in the same, in many ways. And so I choose to hire instructors who are the best at what they do, not who have the most eyes. 

[00:53:57] Which isn’t necessarily a great sales strategy, but it certainly is providing the best quality and the best um, it’s the best thing possible for our students and for our members, because they are genuinely learning from the best. 

[00:54:13] Travis Bader: You know, I’ve seen some courses, I’ve looked at different online courses that people have, and there’s a lot of sizzle and no steak, a lot of flash on a buy now look at, and you can upgrade and you’d get into the course and you look at it. You’re like, why did I pay for this thing? Like, it looked really flashy, but what’s the actual value that I’m getting out of it. 

[00:54:34] And that’s where I’ve just loved what you’re putting together, because you care so deeply about what the end user is going to experience out of this. And you and I we’ve had conversations about this back and forth, uh, ad nauseam about the value that you’re bringing to, to the end user and to the, to the community. And if there’s something that you feel just, just, wasn’t a hundred percent that it just wasn’t really on point you’re feeling guilty and this, this stuff you’ve never even put up because of that. 

[00:55:06] April Vokey: Yeah. 

[00:55:06] Travis Bader: So I think that. 

[00:55:07] April Vokey: It hurts. 

[00:55:08] Travis Bader: Totally, and I think that often.

[00:55:09] April Vokey: It’s like money down the drain and you’re like, ah, but it’s a learning lesson, you know?

[00:55:14] Travis Bader: Yeah. But you know, the long-term money down the drain, it’s not there right? You put, throw, you, throw it out now and it eats at the integrity and it eats at what people feel that they can trust out of a brand. And so I would much rather throw, I would run. For example, we spent, uh, a good chunk of money with an organization recently exploring a route that we’re going with one of our endeavors, only for me to say, no. 

[00:55:43] No, deep down, at a core gut level, this isn’t the right way for us to go. And two weeks later, they came back with another group that they’re bringing in, which is a thousand times better. It’s going to be so phenomenal for what we’re doing, even though I was so like pot committed to this one, being able to say no. 

[00:56:05] And looking at that as an expensive learning venture led to in only two weeks period of them coming back with something that is better, is so much better. So I, I, I’m a thousand percent on the same page as where you are on that. If you don’t have what you feel to be the best quality product out there. Only the best food leaves the kitchen right?

[00:56:28] April Vokey: Or, you know, you gotta add some seasoning to it. I read every single review and I listened to every single bit of feedback that I get. And then we just build on top of it. So you felt we were missing that in that course, what we are adding that to that course. I mean, just constantly adding, building, making it better. Right. 

[00:56:47] So that’s been a big part of it too, of, of, of this business, for me having a business that’s community-based and not April Vokey based is that you have to learn how to take criticism and not, not in a negative way. You have to learn how to take criticism and really see it as, as great feedback. Um, and, and I think that’s. 

[00:57:09] Travis Bader: Yes. 

[00:57:09] April Vokey: Been my biggest learning lesson over the last couple of years is I remember I used to get the, you know, web form inquiry and my stomach would go upright. What have I done wrong now? Or you get a review and what have I done wrong now?

[00:57:20] Travis Bader: Right.

[00:57:21] April Vokey: Or a cancellation, what have I done wrong now? But then you go, okay, well, hang on, they’re right. I’m going to listen and I’m going to make that better so that I don’t have to feel sick again when I get that web form inquiry. So just building upon it. But the only way to do that is you have to have a quality product and person to begin with. And so I knew in my gut and in my heart that I was never going to be able to genuinely stand behind courses that were led by people, just because they have a strong social media backing. 

[00:57:51] So I’ve had to focus on instructors who are genuinely the best. Some of them don’t even have social media. Some of them, when I say, can you please post that your course is live? Are like, where do I do that? How do I edit this link? So, you know, it’s. 

[00:58:06] Travis Bader: That’s hilarious. 

[00:58:06] April Vokey: It’s trying, but at least, at least it’s genuine. So anyway, that’s, that’s, we probably flogged that one, but, um, yeah. That’s where I stand on authenticity and, and business versus conservation. And trying to get your point across urgently fast.

[00:58:20] Travis Bader: Yeah. And it’s 189 episodes. I’m looking at it here. I think you’re at 189, almost 190. 

[00:58:26] April Vokey: Holy moly. 

[00:58:28] Travis Bader: For, for you, for your age, that that’s crazy. Are you, as I look, as I look at that number of episodes, is there any part of you that says, man, I got to record another episode or are you just like, I can’t, I love it. I get, I get to record another episode. 

[00:58:47] April Vokey: Uhm, yeah, no, I think what it comes down to is, oh, I’ve got an edit another episode, you know, that’s different, but recording. No. And listen, if I, if I feel like I’m in an anti-social week, I just don’t book any podcasts. Right. There, I, I know I need to stick to my schedule. Uh, they, all the gurus say, make sure you post the same day at the same time. I don’t want to exhaust myself. It’s not fair to my listener. Right. 

[00:59:10] I mean, to my listener. I want my guests to know I’m genuinely there to hear their story as so know, I’m not there yet because the stories that I’m, that I’m listening to are really, really inspiring. My podcast has made me a better person, hands down, every day of the week. Like there’s no, there’s no way to grow an ego when you’re podcasting some of these men and women. 

[00:59:31] Because you just, you can’t help, but look at yourself after and think, how can I, how can I be like that? Or how can I have such a full life or how can I do what they’ve done? You know, they, they really humble me, big time. 

[00:59:46] Travis Bader: So out of all the podcasts that you’ve done, you’ve talked to so many people. Is there one person out there that you would love to have on your podcast, but you haven’t yet? 

[00:59:59] April Vokey: Oh, maybe, maybe. I don’t know. I think I’ve had most of the P uh, yes. I mean, the answer is yes, for sure, there is. And listen, there are people who don’t fly fish that I like. I’d love to have Jordan Peterson on my podcast and. 

[01:00:19] Travis Bader: Tell me about it, yes. 

[01:00:20] April Vokey: Not for clickbait. I mean, I would do it without recording. I just have got so many questions for him. So there are people outside of fishing. Um, there is a woman I’d really like to get on, her name’s Diana Rudolf and she’s, uh, this amazing Tarpon angler. She’s very private and she’s one of the best. And I would love to pick her brain about certain things, fishing and from an industry stance, why she’s chose, chose to go the route she did.

[01:00:44] She had a baby later in life, she’s married to someone else in the industry. All of these things are very interesting to me, but, but no. So, so far there’s been a lot of people who I didn’t realize that I needed to hear their story to grow. I mean, um, I interviewed a man named Ted Juracsik on the show, um, and you know, he walked me through life and concentration camps and you know, we’re both in tears in that one.

[01:01:08] And Frank Moore, you know, he’s in his nineties and the most happily married man I’ve ever met. And just those two guys and, and there’s a few others I’ve walked away from those episodes different. I’ve walked away different. I was not the same again. And you know, it used to take me having to fly to Argentina to have the sort of transformation and to be able to do it in a two-hour segment of going into their home and sitting with them, let’s say three hours. Of seeing their lives and walking away three hours later, different, as a different human. That’s really cool. 

[01:01:41] Travis Bader: What about this whole online podcasting? Like it, don’t like it. What are your thoughts? 

[01:01:47] April Vokey: Look, it’s. I like it because I can get more people that I’m really interested in. And it’s a great way to, to obviously stay connected and, and meet new people. But there’s nothing quite like walking into John Gierach home and seeing. 

[01:02:03] Travis Bader: Right. 

[01:02:03] April Vokey: His house and drinking coffee with them. And just going into his messy desk area, you know, hanging out with his wife, that kind of stuff. Seeing the deer in his front yard, that there’s nothing quite like that. And it’s, it’s the little thing I hate. I hate, I know the word nuance is used too much these days, but it’s all those little tiny things, right?

[01:02:25] The awkward silence, the comfortable silence of drinking coffee and not having to say anything. Maybe we have lunch. All those little things to me are the, I mean, that’s where the magic is. So I think that we get the job done, but I don’t know if it’s quite the same. 

[01:02:42] Travis Bader: You know, I’ve, I’ve had some people who were eager to come on as guests on The Silvercore Podcast, but they said only if it’s in person, so I’m waiting for borders to open up so I can start traveling to a few different locations. But they say a hundred percent, the only way I’ll do it as if it’s in person. 

[01:02:58] They say, I don’t feel like I can open up and talk to somebody over a camera or over the internet, which I can totally appreciate. I think that’s a learned skill. And I think it’s, it’s difficult to get a temperature check on the person and see where they’re at when, when it’s through a screen here. But I thousand percent agree it sure makes life easier. I mean, you don’t have to get, leave the house and you can have, you can have that Argentinian podcast, right. 

[01:03:26] April Vokey: That’s right. Exactly. There’s an energy when you’re in the room. And it floats over all of you, right? It’s like this pixie dust and it just does something. 

[01:03:34] Travis Bader: Yes. 

[01:03:34] April Vokey: It transfers back and forth. And unfortunately it just doesn’t seem to transmit through the screen quite as well, but. 

[01:03:40] Travis Bader: Not in the same way. 

[01:03:41] April Vokey: Yep. So, you know, swinging, swinging it back around at you. What about you? Who would you have on. 

[01:03:47] Travis Bader: You know what? I met the guy once I thought he was a pretty cool individual, the chances of them ever coming on the podcast, like slim to none, but Bear Grylls. I figured Bear Grylls would be a cool guy to have on the podcast. The guy has the Guinness Book of World Records for a youngest Brit to summit Everest. He crossed the Atlantic ocean in a rigid inflatable boat from a, I think it was from Nova Scotia over to Ireland in a, like a little, little rigid inflatable boat with, I think it was a three man crew.

[01:04:19] I think he took a paraglide over top of Everest, uh, longest indoor skydive, like the guy’s a mental fortitude and positivity is crazy. And I would love to be able to chat with him further in a podcast scenario. I think that. 

[01:04:36] April Vokey: Bear are you. 

[01:04:36] Travis Bader: That would be fun. 

[01:04:37] April Vokey: Listening? Bear, where you? 

[01:04:39] Travis Bader: Come on Bear. 

[01:04:41] April Vokey: You know what he, you, you you’d be surprised. And that is the great thing about this digital world now is I’m, I am finding a lot of people are agreeing to do it because it is very simple for them to just hop online. So it’s worth reaching out. What would you do if you were disappointed? What would you do if halfway through the interview? And I’ve been there, halfway through the interview, you realize, uh oh, this guy isn’t what I thought he was.

[01:05:06] Do you, as an interviewer, take that conversation down that road and start asking some tough questions or do you just play along with the bop and the happy-go-lucky facade? What do you do as an interview? Where, where do you draw the line on your, um, on your integrity as far as, uh, being somebody in journalism or reporting interviewing?

[01:05:31] Travis Bader: So in my podcasts that I do, I’ve always encouraged a two-way dialogue, but it always tends to be more often me asking questions and them answering questions. And some people can take those questions and they’ll build a story and they’ll tell all about it and they’re super engaging. And some people will have the back and forth, but more often than not the people that are coming on have never really been in a situation like this.

[01:05:55] And quite obviously there’ll be some nerves and these things that you have to overcome. So, um, I’m, I feel like I’m still finding my voice within The Silvercore Podcast. I specifically called it The Silvercore Podcast because I wanted to be able to talk about anything. It’s not Silvercore firearms, it’s not outdoors.

[01:06:19] It’s not, I wanted to be able to talk about whatever it is. My ADHD mind kind of fancied at the moment. Cause like you there’s, there’s so much more to my interest level than just that one singular thing. Um, so when I first started doing these podcasts, my major thrust was, I want to make sure that people come on here and there they’ve got a platform where they can share their positivity.

[01:06:48] I want to find positive people who have extraordinary experiences and be able to share that in a positive way. And sometimes I would navigate the conversation in such a way when they were pitfalls. So they wouldn’t fall down those pitfalls. I am learning to shut my mouth a little bit as hard as it is.

[01:07:09] I’m learning to shut my mouth. And if they want to talk about some of these pitfalls or these areas that might be contentious, to do so, because that’s what a true conversation truly is. It’s not one person trying to guide them through the questions and through things. If they want to bring something up and talk about it and throw it back at me, I am providing them that opportunity.

[01:07:32] But that’s a learned thing when, when I first started, no, I, I definitely help people kind of avoid certain things. Would I push them down that rabbit hole further? Um, I might ask questions about it if they open the door. If it’s something they’re truly uncomfortable about. No, I want to be able to showcase the best possible them. And I want other people to know when they come in that the best possible version of them will also be showcased. 

[01:08:05] April Vokey: Yeah. 

[01:08:06] Travis Bader: I think if that answers.

[01:08:08] April Vokey: It does. Yeah. It’s a big difference between the gotcha interviews, which I actually can’t stand and, and the genuine two-way conversation, you know, it’s a tricky one to navigate. It’s a balancing act for sure, because you want to lead them through. Um, but you, you also don’t want to censor them. 

[01:08:26] Travis Bader: Right. 

[01:08:28] April Vokey: So, so that’s what, it’s tough to navigate that, but no, I think you do a great job. But yeah, sometimes, and it’s not necessarily a pitfall. I mean, sometimes these awkward subjects, they’re there to discuss them. I’ve been there. I’ve been on a show where I, I def I wanted to talk about something awkward and we did discuss it and then he cut the whole thing out of the podcast. But I was there. 

[01:08:50] Travis Bader: Now I want to know what that is. 

[01:08:51] April Vokey: I was there too. It doesn’t matter now this 15 years ago, but, or 10, 15 years ago. Yeah. Um, and looking back now, maybe he did save me a bit, but it was, it was actually, no, he wouldn’t have now. Nowadays, with us being honest about some of the things that we’ve seen in the industry and in me too. Um, and I, you know, this is a long time ago. I shouldn’t have been censored. I should have been able to have said what I said without it being cut out, I taught I was there to talk about it. 

[01:09:21] Travis Bader: Hmm. Yeah. 

[01:09:22] April Vokey: So, you know, so sometimes you have to let your guests take that fall because it’s not a fall, they’re that’s, they’re there to talk about it.

[01:09:29] Travis Bader: Has anyone ever done a podcast with you? And then they turn around and said, man, I wish, I wish I didn’t say certain things. I didn’t want to have certain things out there. 

[01:09:37] April Vokey: Yes. All the time. But I say before I press it, before I press record, I say, this is , don’t come to me after to ask me to edit anything out, tell me during the recording to take it out. And so, no, I haven’t had someone come, come to me after they’ll they will ask me during recording, hey, that’s off record. Can you take that out? And yes, absolutely, I just take it right out. 

[01:09:58] I’ve had episodes where I’ve cut out a whole hour because we’ll end up, you know, going down this road of talking about their relationship and how it ruined their lives. And it gets very emotional and it’s not necessary to be aired to the world so that stuff just comes out. Yeah. 

[01:10:12] Travis Bader: Right. Yeah. I can see that. Yeah. I do a similar thing. I say, once it’s gone live and it’s going out there, it’s out there. So anytime before that, let me know. Uh, but usually I’ve only, we’ve got one with a government organization that I’ll be doing shortly and, and they’ve asked for full review after it’s done, which .

[01:10:32] April Vokey: And it’ll be all scripted anyway, they don’t even let you ask the question. We need you to submit your questions first. Then we need to know exactly how we’re going to script our response. It’s there, the government interviews are the worst. I actually won’t take them anymore. I won’t take them. 

[01:10:47] Travis Bader: Really? 

[01:10:47] April Vokey: Nope. If you’re going to, if you’re going to come on my show and air your politics and all of your total bullshit, you have to be retired or let me sway the conversation as it’s going to go because they, they, they want to script and control the whole conversation down their own narrative and no. Good luck. Good luck with that. 

[01:11:05] Travis Bader: Yeah. Thank you. Well, I’ve got them to agree with. So I, I looked at, I said, here’s the general gist of the questions. I said, listen to the previous podcast. I’m not here to play gotcha games. I’m not here to, here’s what the intention is. I said, but if you want to have engagement and you want people to listen to what you have coming out, you’re going to have to be genuine.

[01:11:25] And that’s going to be, if that’s going to require not all the questions ahead of time, because I’ve done that. I’ve I had one group before and I provided all of the questions. That person came on, great guy, a really talented individual, really knowledgeable, but very nervous. And they wanted to know what all the questions were.

[01:11:45] And we provided basically a whole list of exactly what I’m looking to do. That podcast started and ended in under 15 minutes, because they said, they had all the answers and there was no, there was no conversation. So he came back afterwards and said, how about a story about A, B and C? Oh, I could tell that.

[01:12:06] Or how about a personal experience about this? Oh, I guess I could expand on that. Probably one of the most, uh, time-intensive editing processes to try and seamlessly weave all that back in, into things. But we’re able to do that showcase in a great light and it taught me, I am the taught me a few things. Don’t talk to the person too much before you get into a podcast, because all the good stuff is talked about before and afterwards. 

[01:12:31] April Vokey: Never, never, that’s like rule number one, don’t ask any questions. Even if you look super rude while you’re sitting there before you press record. 

[01:12:38] Travis Bader: Totally. I don’t provide them with all of the questions and information ahead of time, because your response will come back to scripted.

[01:12:47] April Vokey: Yeah. 

[01:12:48] Travis Bader: One that I think out, I I’ve tried a couple of times, which is I’m just going to keep things recording. We’re wrapped up, we’re done, but I’m going to keep the re uh, the recording process go. And we can just kind of debrief on a few different things. And it’s funny, I’ve had some podcasts that are almost entirely the after conversation.

[01:13:12] April Vokey: Do they know they’re on record, do they know they’re. 

[01:13:14] Travis Bader: Yes. 

[01:13:14] April Vokey: On record? Okay. 

[01:13:15] Travis Bader: Yes. Oh no, no. A hundred percent. I said, I’m just going to, this is a chance for us to be able to relax. Talk about a few different things, regroup over stuff. It’s still recorded. Maybe we’ll put this as a, as a interim or use it if there’s little sound bites that come out of here that we can use on social media.

[01:13:30] Great. And if we don’t like it, you just let me know and we can just, we can wipe that part after, afterwards. And so no, a hundred percent, I would never ever trick anybody on the recording process because that’s a surefire way to never have anybody else want to come on the show. And some of the best conversations happen the second is you stop recording. So I found that to be a useful trick. 

[01:13:55] April Vokey: Yes. And then the other one that I do is I always do push it a little far with that one extra question that I know I probably shouldn’t ask. And so my trick is, and is really hard as I’ll ask it, it hurts to ask it. It makes me cringe sometimes to ask it.

[01:14:12] And then in the weird, awkward silence, right as I’m about to say something, I will literally put my tongue between my teeth, so that I don’t break either of us out of it. And I let them take us out of it because they’ll take you out of it one way or the other, but it’s usually, it usually brings that conversation just to that next little bit of down to earth, real raw honesty and some beautiful things happen out of that.

[01:14:40] It doesn’t have to be gotcha. It doesn’t have to be controversial. Sometimes it’s emotional. Sometimes it’s something about their childhood that they’re, I’ve had so many people on the show stop, and this is why the beauty happens in the silence. The beauty happens in the silence and that’s why I bite my tongue, literally because they remember things.

[01:15:00] And you can see them remembering. And it, as, as people who read, read people, we want to help them, but they need that moment just to remember. And then some of the most amazing things happen when they step back into their past. Can you hear the kookaburra’s laughing at me.

[01:15:16] Travis Bader: I can hear ’em. And I like that technique. That is what are the hardest ones for me to practice, and I know I should be doing that. And for whatever reason I tend, I have, I think maybe I have to do what you do is literally stick your tongue up into your mouth. 

[01:15:37] April Vokey: Because you don’t want, she’s seeing people uncomfortable. I see it all the time with you, you know, I’ve known you long enough. You really don’t like seeing people uncomfortable. You don’t want to push people down. You want to pull people up right. 

[01:15:48] Travis Bader: Right. 

[01:15:48] April Vokey: And so sometimes in that moment of silence, you think that they’re dropping, but they’re actually coming up. So just let them find their footing. 

[01:15:58] Travis Bader: I think that’s awesome advice. Yeah. I did a, a number of courses on interview and interrogation and some with the Vancouver police or with the Reed Institute out of the states. And there’s, there’s all these different ways to be able to elicit information from people. And I’ve never wanted to use those techniques in a podcast scenario. 

[01:16:20] Because quite often it’ll feel manipulative, but one technique that they talk about, which is very, very powerful is simply shut up, keep your mouth shut because socially, people want to be able, the silence is uncomfortable for everybody. People want to fill that with something. And if you shut up, the person will keep talking, just like I am right now. 

[01:16:44] April Vokey: No, but you know, what’s beautiful about it though. And this is where I learned my lesson was in editing. In that moment, the silence feels like it goes on forever, but in the edited version, when you, when you’re looking at the audio waves, that silence wasn’t nearly as long as it felt. 

[01:17:03] Travis Bader: That’s a really good point.

[01:17:04] April Vokey: So sometimes that , three, four seconds of silence feels like it’s 40 seconds and it’s painful, but trust the audio waves, bite your tongue, let them find their footing. And they’ll almost, listen if they don’t want to go down that road, they will usually, there’ll usually be a sign. 

[01:17:22] And listen, if, if panic flashes over their eyes, I’ll shut, you don’t have to answer that. It’s all good, you don’t have to answer that. You know, you’re reading, you’re reading them. That’s why, it’s why it’s nice to be in person too. You can see, you can feel like you’re breathing in their energy. You can feel that change. So we do lose some. 

[01:17:39] Travis Bader: Yes. 

[01:17:39] April Vokey: Of that by doing it remotely. 

[01:17:42] Travis Bader: That energy is something that’s palpable at times. When you’re in the podcast studio, like we brought up Colin Dowler before I just, his emotional story of what he went through. There is so much of that that ended up cut out because from a psychological perspective, here I am flown in, at his house. He was kind enough to let me in and do this interview. And I want to hear the story about how you fought off a grizzly bear with a knife. 

[01:18:09] And all I’m hearing from him is minutiae and details all around the event, as opposed to the actual event. And I could tell at a certain point, he is emotionally and psychologically avoiding that, that whole instance again. And I remember telling him, I said, look at Colin. It doesn’t matter that I flew out here, it doesn’t matter. Why don’t we go for lunch? We don’t have to record. Let’s just listen. 

[01:18:37] He says, no, no, no, this is important. I want to get this story out if we can save someone’s life. And, but that the level of connection and, um, that vibe that you get with some of the people is, uh, uh, I find is what drives me to be better at what I’m doing here and everyday I’m reading, looking at different ways to be better at this. 

[01:19:02] April Vokey: Boom. 

[01:19:02] Travis Bader: So if, oh go.

[01:19:04] April Vokey: No, that’s exactly right. 

[01:19:07] Travis Bader: So, if you had an uncomfortable question for me, what would that question be? 

[01:19:13] April Vokey: Oh, it’s probably political. Um, uh, well, I just, I, I’m always very curious how you manage politics. I don’t know if that’s, if I’m going to die on the sword though, I don’t know if that’s the one I want to go on. 

[01:19:29] Travis Bader: You get one chance! Just one. 

[01:19:32] April Vokey: Um, if I had to ask you a really uncomfortable, well listen, I did have, that was one of my questions about regrets in life. Uh, that’d be our w we did cover earlier. And then I also did wonder how you navigated marketing through integrity versus clickbait. We’ve covered that, but yeah, politics, I mean, you, you work primarily, or you’re known in a lot of ways for firearms, which is an incredibly polarizing subject. It’s something where you can be painted into a box.

[01:20:00] And listen, I get a little bit frustrated sometimes because I’ve been painted into the fly fishing steelhead box. Even though I fly fish around the world, I fish saltwater. I hunt, I do all of these things, but I’m a fly fishing steelhead girl. How does it feel being painted into the box of firearms company and how are you planning on, I mean, I guess that’s two different questions.

[01:20:21] Let’s stay away from politics because I don’t understand gun politics at all. From a branding stance, how are you planning on stepping outside of being put in the firearm corner, cause nobody puts bady in the corner. 

[01:20:36] Travis Bader: No one puts bady in the corner. So what’s really funny about that question is the one I had for you next was getting pigeonholed. 

[01:20:44] April Vokey: Ah hah! 

[01:20:45] Travis Bader: And talking about how you were putting into a box and how you’re breaking out of that. Yes. People look at me as a gun guy. I get it. I get why they would look at me as a gun guy. I have never looked at myself as a gun guy. I got my first gun, I started shooting when I was four, got my first gun when I was five, competed as a preteen and teenager, I’ve trained at all levels of government and trained others at all levels of government.

[01:21:16] I’ve gunsmithed for a number of years for police agencies, armour car companies, for private security, done work with, all over the board and in the firearms world. And I have never once considered myself to be a gun guy. Those gun guys, they’re the ones that the gun show, they’re the ones on the forums. They’re the ones doing all of these other things.

[01:21:40] Um, they’re really diehard, they’re into it. I’ve always considered myself, you know, I guess I’ve had a hard time really putting my finger on exactly what it is that that truly drives me. But like you, I think it’s the adventure of the unknown. Excuse me. So when, when I was younger, I would push myself on adventures quite often, which were extremely dangerous.

[01:22:12] And I would come out of that feeling invigorated. And I would tell others, I said, you never feel truly alive until you’ve reached a point where that threshold between possible life and possible death is, is razor thin. You leave that. And I felt, hey, on top of the world, this is great. And I’ve had to take a look at a way that’s probably a lit, a bit more healthier to navigate into the adventure and the unknown and I’ve done that through the business world. 

[01:22:47] So I’ve been pigeonholed by many as the big guy, or the gun guy, or I think most who truly know me would see me more as, he’s a family man, and he has way too many, um. 

[01:23:07] April Vokey: Toys. 

[01:23:08] Travis Bader: Toys. 

[01:23:08] April Vokey: Yeah. 

[01:23:08] Travis Bader: And hobbies. 

[01:23:09] April Vokey: That’s how I see you. 

[01:23:11] Travis Bader: Right.

[01:23:11] April Vokey: I love it though. 

[01:23:12] Travis Bader: What are you going to do with, how are you going to play with all these different toys, right? Yeah, I dunno if it comes from not having many toys growing up and trying to reach a point where you can actually have something. I never ever figured I’d be the type of person to achieve, even just a fraction of what I’ve got and if I’m able to help others. Because at my core, I’m always, what gets me really excited is being able to help others do similar things, to see other people reach their full potential.

[01:23:46] Um, I, I think that would be, uh, perhaps a pigeon hole that I would be more or a moniker that I’d be more comfortable wearing. Uh, then than the gun guy. I consult for law firms or federal court, provincial Supreme court on firearms and use of force related matters, I still don’t consider myself the gun guy. I don’t know. I guess it’s easy in the.

[01:24:16] April Vokey: All right. So where did we leave off? We were talking about pigeonholing. 

[01:24:20] Travis Bader: We’re were talking about pigeonholing and I forget what the actual question was. And I think I meandered all around on my answer there a little bit. 

[01:24:28] April Vokey: You did a little bit, but what is your plan moving forward? Are you planning on trying to very cognitively and very deliberately break out of that? 

[01:24:37] Travis Bader: So what I see is the firearms world, although I don’t see myself as a gun guy, is the majority of what I know through life and through business. And it’s where I’ve put so much effort up until this point. But I do see the writing on the wall in so far as a social stigma associated with the firearms industry. All it takes is one lunatic to go out and use a firearm in an inappropriate fashion.

[01:25:10] And the world’s in an uproar again, all of a sudden Shopify is closing down people’s accounts if they have firearms related activities or merchant providers are saying, yeah, we’re backing out. We’re not going to use you anymore. And from a long-term business model perspective, that’s scary. And I think it makes sense to try and take that conversation.

[01:25:33] I mean, you’re essentially going against almost a a hundred years of social engineering on the perception of firearms. I don’t know if that’s something that I really want to take on. I mean, I can, I can go against that current. I can try and I can try and fight it, or I can find a way to change that narrative in a positive way. Moving forward, there is a definite conscious aspect to how do you grow the game forward using what you know, but in a way that is acceptable to today’s current cancel culture. 

[01:26:17] April Vokey: Yeah, right. 

[01:26:18] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[01:26:19] April Vokey: Dun dun dun dun. We just opened up a new can of worms.. 

[01:26:23] Travis Bader: Oh, tell me about it. So there are so many opportunities that I have been provided in the firearms industry and continue to be provided that I am simply not taking up. Although lucrative, the emotional energy required to push that one forward, in my opinion is not worth it at this point.

[01:26:49] And I feel like I can do a heck of a lot more for the outdoors community, for the hunting community, for the firearms community, by, by transitioning the narrative of how firearms are typically looked at and into something that’s way more socially acceptable and riding current trends that are currently in place.

[01:27:08] I mean, it doesn’t take a genius to have to log into Google trends and see what what’s popping and what isn’t, and be able to leverage that one much in the same way that, um, Shane Mahoney, as a environmentalist, as a conservationist, is taking an approach to, uh, getting people interested in conservation, uh, is a similar approach to what I’m looking at doing with firearms and with my business in general.

[01:27:39] April Vokey: Yeah, absolutely. No, I like it. I think you guys are doing great job. It’s funny, isn’t it? How a business can, you know, unintentionally form someone’s opinion about you. I mean, I remember meeting you and Tiffany very clearly, like it was yesterday, and thinking to myself, I just automatically put you guys in a box and I’m not against firearms. I have firearms. 

[01:28:03] But for some reason, when you guys told me you’re into foraging and going crabbing and all of the wonderful things that you’re doing and going fly fishing and stuff, I just, it was a surprise, which is really ignorant on my part. So unfortunately with our, our short attention spans these days, we tend to, it’s easy just to put people in a box and decide. 

[01:28:23] Travis Bader: It totally is. 

[01:28:24] April Vokey: Where you’re putting them. And then you know where to turn to when you need that box. You know what I mean? It’s not fair. 

[01:28:30] Travis Bader: Yeah. You know, I enjoy surfing. I like skateboarding. I got my electric skateboard. I’ll take into work. I enjoy mountaineering. I enjoy snowboarding, skiing, scuba, fishing, hunting, firearms. I mean, it’s just, it’s all over the board.

[01:28:44] Like woodworking, metalworking. I like electronics and it just, the list goes on. And for me to be kind of pigeonholed into one simple area as firearms alone is uh, I don’t know, it’s somewhat limiting and it’s one, it’s one area where I’ve never allowed myself to be truly pigeonholed in. 

[01:29:05] May, maybe I consciously fight getting too far into there cause I know that’s going to take away from other, other areas and other interests that I have. But I think in the end it’ll lead to a more holistic community and uh, and business.

[01:29:19] April Vokey: That’s right. People are multi-dimensional, we’re not just, you know, one or nothing. But I have a question for you. You have mentioned ADHD a number of times now, and as somebody who, I don’t believe I’m ADHD, but I know that I have a very similar brain to yours in a lot of ways.

[01:29:36] And I have my own uneducated opinion. So it’s very much just an opinion on ADHD. I do wonder sometimes. And my sister’s a, uh, a doctor that’s psychiatrist. Yeah. Which is the one that yes, she’s a psychiatrist. And so I know that she’s got all this medical stuff around ADHD, but I often wonder sometimes if people who have ADHD just are people who should be outside, maybe when we were younger.

[01:30:04] I mean, when we were primitive or more primitive, you know, back in the day, maybe that’s the people who had ADHD were meant to be out there providing for, you know, their families. Anyway, we could go down a whole different, like I said, very uneducated tangent on that. I would sound like a complete ass if I don’t already, but. 

[01:30:24] Travis Bader: You don’t. You don’t.

[01:30:26] April Vokey: But, well, I just, I remember once I think I said something and this would have been again about a decade ago, I said something about ADHD isn’t real or something. And I had doctors just put me in my place pretty fast. So I’m very much ignorant when it comes to that. But I have my own little theories and speculations about that.

[01:30:44] But, but, but let me get on track here, ADHD and you, Travis Bader. One thing I do know a lot about, as far as having a racing mind and fly fishing, is that they can work really well together or really poorly with each other. Because fly fishing is very meditative, meditative. And so if forced, I mean, you could meditate by listening to the sound of wind, right?

[01:31:10] You just have to focus on the sound of something else beyond your own thoughts. And so with fly fishing, uh, you focused on a particular motion, which is actually quite repetitive. And so it can be very meditative for a lot of people. As somebody who has a brain that goes a mile a minute, sometimes it’s good to help me slow down.

[01:31:28] And sometimes it’s impossible because I can’t get into casting because my brain’s moving a mile a minute. You are pretty new to fly fishing and your brain moves 200 miles a minute. Does fly fishing pain you because it’s just too hard to sit still or has it helped you to relax and focus and meditate? 

[01:31:51] Travis Bader: I think you have a number of good questions in there. I almost feel like you pulled a punch there as well, at the beginning. But my personal opinion on the whole idea of ADHD. So I was diagnosed with ADHD when I was in grade three, I was, uh, told that I was a perfectly lovely human being up until I hit school. And, uh, my parents would tell me that the teachers ruined me, right.

[01:32:19] They, and the school system, and I just didn’t jive with it. And, um, by grade three I was taken in, I was, uh, diagnosed with ADHD and prescribed a lot of Ritalin. And in fact, as the years went on all the way up until grade seven, I was prescribed Ritalin. I was told by my doctor, I was on the highest dosage of Ritalin, uh, that he’s aware of, of anybody in the province because they could only prescribe X certain amount in per pill. 

[01:32:51] So he’d have me takin’ eight pills in the morning and six pills in the afternoon. And man, I was humming because Ritalin is a stimulant. My personal thought on all of that is there’s a lot of people out there who will want to have a label for why they are a certain way. Whether that’s ADHD or, or, or whatever it might be. 

[01:33:15] It makes them feel more comfortable with who they are as a person and describing their, makes them comfortable with their own idiosyncrasies. I am not entirely sure I have ADHD, despite being diagnosed with it, despite the troubles in school, despite having to do the, the Ritalin and all the rest. I remember talking to a person who was a professional individual at one point and they said, is there any point in your life when you felt you didn’t have ADHD?

[01:33:47] And I was, I said, well, yeah, you know, I was, um, when I was traveling around the world and in certain countries or, uh, I was 19 years old, couldn’t speak the language of the people around, so you’re quite quiet. You’re quite, uh, observant. And I found there is a very, very calming, calming process. And when I finally did return home for years, for about a year, I, anyways, everyone says, man you’ve changed. You’re different, you’re calm, you’re quiet. Right. 

[01:34:21] Um, so the person said, well, if you had that, what makes you think you do have ADHD? So ADHD from my understanding is something to do with a disassociation between the prefrontal cortex and the rest of the brain and how it, how it interacts and why people will tend to not look at consequences, which was one thing when I was growing up, I wouldn’t look at consequences.

[01:34:49] I would do things, not thinking that the end result of what I’m doing could be my death, or it could be something, I would just do it. Cause right now in that moment, that was something I was keen on. But in other ways, uh, it could be environmental, right? If you’re living in a certain environment and there’s a certain level of chaos in your life, perhaps you seek out chaos because that’s what you know, to be comic, normal, natural. Perhaps I put myself in situation. 

[01:35:24] April Vokey: Exciting. 

[01:35:24] Travis Bader: Exciting. Right.

[01:35:25] April Vokey: Which makes you happy, which brings us full circle. But yes, continue, continue. I’m fascinated. 

[01:35:30] Travis Bader: Right. So was I putting myself in these situations, which were dangerous or exciting. I mean, just, just stupid crap. And you know, part of me wants to say it because people will be like, oh my God, I can’t believe you did that. It would be interesting for discussion. The other part realizes that my kids listen to the podcast. So I think I’ll leave those parts out. 

[01:35:54] Um, is it, is it a by-product of a, uh, disassociation or the neural network between the prefrontal cortex and the rest of your brain and making decisions and consequences and all the rest, or is it how you, uh, deal with your surroundings and react to your environment?

[01:36:15] Um, so when you look at fly fishing, for example, some people say, man, if you have ADHD, you get hyper-focus other people say, no, no, no, no, that’s not hyper-focus, that’s the inability to unfocus. It’s not that you’ve got this great thing going on. It’s the fact that you can’t switch gears like other people normally do.

[01:36:38] I see that in myself when I work, I work. And in fact, I, I re you know, I can remember one shift pulling in, I think it was 27 hours of just working and there I am in the shop and it would be a normal occurrence. I mean, Tiff would come by, I’d be working in the shop early in the morning and she’d bring on some food and I got breakfast and she’d bring me food the next morning as well.

[01:37:03] I mean, and then when I’m not working on playing, all I wanted to do was play, right. Then I’m into play mode. And I, and I don’t, have to have a hard time getting back into the work. The actual act of, uh, fly fishing for me, isn’t so much a meditative process because my hands are always doing something. If you could see my feet right now, they’re bouncing a mile a minute, but being in the river, being in a boat, being out in the environment, I find that brings a level of presentness that is absent in my, in my everyday life.

[01:37:43] So it’s not necessarily the activity, but is my surroundings that I find will bring in that level of present ness. And you say listening to the wind, it could be as simple as looking at a colour and concentrating on that colour or the waves or a smell or in that is one thing that I found I’ve had to work really hard on is live in that present moment. That’s a long-winded way of getting at it. And there’s more, I got so much more to say on this. 

[01:38:12] April Vokey: No, I think it’s great. Hang on. So for your listener and your viewer, I have a three-and-a-half year old under my feet. So if you see me like that, um, having cables pulling and me shifting, and me trying to phrase a question intelligently, unsuccessfully, that is why, so we’ll leave that in. So people know why I sound like a moron. 

[01:38:34] Um, so now that we’ve gotten that out of the way, so people know what’s happening because they’re like, why is she having spasms? Um, do you, and, and I’m going to just come around here. So my sister was diagnosed, was diagnosed with it. She did not have, she didn’t have it.

[01:38:50] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[01:38:50] April Vokey: And quite a few of my friends were diagnosed with it. They didn’t have it. And I thought it was very strange that when I would take them out fishing and more recently hunting that suddenly this ADHD was just gone. It didn’t, it wasn’t there, because they were outside. And I am always been vocal that I believe that the way that we’re supposed to, supposed to live, you know, with these nine to five jobs, driving an hour there and an hour back, fluorescent lighting, white walls, basically in an insane asylum, for the majority of our day is completely unnatural.

[01:39:22] I’ve always looked at people who have ADHD, who, because who normalize and level out, out in the wilderness to just be more in touch with who they are as primitive beings and who they are as humans. Do you find that the ADHD and I don’t mean when you’re sitting there staking out a deer and you getting all these business ideas. I mean, that’s just part of being a business owner. 

[01:39:46] Travis Bader: Right. 

[01:39:46] April Vokey: But did you ever find growing up that your ADHD and my quotations are not discrediting it medically. 

[01:39:53] Travis Bader: No no. 

[01:39:53] April Vokey: I’m just talking. 

[01:39:54] Travis Bader: No I. 

[01:39:54] April Vokey: About you specifically. 

[01:39:56] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[01:39:56] April Vokey: Did it disappear when you were outside.

[01:40:02] Travis Bader: Yes. And to a, and I will, I will preface that. So when, when you do the quotation marks on ADHD, I’m on the same page as you, I’m not entirely certain. I think there’s an entire industry that’s rotated around mental health in children that is predicated on trying to give pills or therapy to individuals who could probably thrive in different environments.

[01:40:30] The whole school system that we have is antiquated. Why are we separating people based on their age as if that will, you’re five years old, this is what you have to learn. You’re 12 years old here, here’s, here’s what you need to know. I mean, my son’s 12 and he flies airplanes, not just the remote control ones, but real airplanes.

[01:40:51] He hasn’t landed them yet. He does ground school at the local uh, uh flight centre. And that’s his passion. That’s what he’s interested in. What, what says, and he’s, he won’t miss a, a, a date of school, loves it. He’s there on time, gets dressed up for it because if the pilots have to look presentable. I think the majority of people who are being diagnosed as, um, whatever abnormal personality or learning, learning traits that they might have, are because our current system isn’t set up to easily deal with all the different types of people and how they learn. That, that’s. 

[01:41:32] April Vokey: How can it be abnormal, when society is so abnormal. 

[01:41:37] Travis Bader: Well, and that’s it. It’s not necessarily, I think the school system is largely, uh, geared for many years uh, there’s been a switch to having a geared towards uh female learning. So a lot of men in the school system will have a difficult time fitting in within the same way that female learning is, is conducted. There are differences in gender and how people approach things. 

[01:42:02] There are differences in cultures of how people will learn. I am not entirely convinced that ADHD in and of itself is something that, um, I’ll, I’ll get myself in trouble with the ADHD world out there. Uh, I don’t know. I I’m like you, a lot of people who are diagnosed with it, who just don’t have it, but you were, you were asking about going out in the outside. Uhm trying to keep that. 

[01:42:29] April Vokey: There’s a solution by the way, just to cut you off. And I apologize, but the solution is always so simple. Time to book a podcast, get one of these psychiatrists on the show. I’d recommend my sister-in-law, but she hasn’t spent a day of her life outside. So she is a moot point, but, but, uh, that would be an excellent, I would love to listen to you discuss that with somebody. 

[01:42:47] Travis Bader: I think that would be an interesting one to do and in fact I know professionals in the industry, and I think I’ll have some contrary ideas and opinions. Growing up I was raised and told I’m a square peg and all these teachers are trying to hammer me into a round hole, right? Oh, I was raised in a very antiestablishment us against them sort of mentality. Um, I don’t think that’s doing anybody any favours. 

[01:43:18] If somebody has ADHD or whatever it might be, telling them that everybody else is wrong and they’re right might be a comforting platitude for a youngster. But providing that youngster with the tools and skillset to be able to operate within this world of round holes is far more beneficial. So saying, well you’re just a hyperactive kid. You got ADHD or you got dyslexia, or you have whatever it might be. Here’s some pills, you’re different. Here you go over there, we’ll treat you differently.

[01:43:54] I think people would be far better served if they looked at these individuals and found what it was that truly motivated or drove them. Cause you look at these kids like, oh man, that kid is super lazy, but they can sure spend all day in front of the TV playing video games. It’s not that they’re necessarily lazy, it’s just that you’re not engaging them. You’re not providing them an environment that speaks to what their attention needs. 

[01:44:20] So find a way to be able to speak to the kids and to people who have ADHD or whatever it might be. And I think you’re going to find that the whole, um, ADHD, ADHD thing greatly reduces in spectrum of who actually has it and who doesn’t.

[01:44:37] April Vokey: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that you should take that on. Spearhead that one. I’ve thought about it before on my show, but, um, it just never got around to it. And I also don’t feel, as I’m being pushed away from my interference. Sorry. Um, I also don’t feel like I could speak on it to the same with, at the same depth that you can so. 

[01:44:56] Travis Bader: Do you feel like you’ve got ADHD? 

[01:44:58] April Vokey: No, I never did feel that way because I mean, I could never stay focused at school. I fell asleep in class, but I just knew it was because they were boring me to tears. I was not being challenged and, and I worked around it. I mean, I, when, when I was in the 10th grade, I said, mom, they’re not, it’s not working for me. I want to go into an advanced, advanced placement course. And so I did. 

[01:45:20] And so instead of going to school in Surrey, high school, I went to Clayton Heights the first year that it opened because they had an advanced placement course. And, um, and look that worked a little bit, I was a little bit more challenged, but I realized very quickly because I was working throughout both jobs.

[01:45:33] That just what I was interested in, which was investing, like I said, I started investing at 16. I was interested in things that they just weren’t teaching. And so I thought that college was going to be the, the answer, you know, then I can pick and choose things that will challenge me, but all it, it worked the opposite.

[01:45:49] It made me realize, okay, so I’m going to school though, to get, cause I’m a long-term player, this job. And then what is this job, what is this job gonna do for me? All, it’s going to stick me right back in the same bloody nine to five that I’ve been trying to escape my whole life. So for me, that was when it all kind of full circled back to, you know, okay.

[01:46:07] So I need to live, I clearly need to be outside because it’s the only thing that challenges me and keeps me engaged. Say that in business, those are my two things. What do you know? They work well together. You do the challenging outdoor stuff in the day and you can do the challenging business stuff at night. And so the two went hand in hand, I dropped out of college and here we are. 

[01:46:27] Travis Bader: Do you find that funny that two people who had difficulties in the traditional school system have gone on and operate training companies? 

[01:46:37] April Vokey: Oh, I have never thought about that. I think, cause I’m still so new to this, right? This is only my second year at this game. Uh, and if you remember, when I started Anchored Outdoors, I didn’t know where I was going. I just thought I was gonna, I mean, the show was a storytelling platform and I thought we were going to continue storytelling, but then I listened to my audience and they wanted more instruction. So it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s evolved naturally that way.

[01:47:04] I don’t know, ask me again in five years. I know that, like I said, I’ve never felt so fulfilled. So I mean, I really feel like I’m giving back. I genuinely feel like that. 

[01:47:16] Travis Bader: You’re an incredibly good instructor. I watched. Oh thank you. 

[01:47:19] April Vokey: You teach. 

[01:47:19] Travis Bader: You’ve got stuff online. You’ve the way that you communicate to people. Have you had any training in that respect or is it just what you feel comes natural to you?

[01:47:29] April Vokey: Yeah. Now it just comes natural. I really, I really enjoy teaching fly fishing. 

[01:47:34] Travis Bader: Yeah. Well, you’re really good at it. 

[01:47:35] April Vokey: Awe thanks. 

[01:47:36] Travis Bader: And you’re able to get complex, complex ideas across in a very simple fashion and yeah, no, you’re a I in a good hearted way as well. 

[01:47:47] April Vokey: You did you get into teaching because it was your, a way to kind of buck the system or do you think it just happened unintentionally?

[01:47:54] Travis Bader: Well, when I was 12 years old, I got into the army cadet movement and I, through that learned man management and method of instruction from the department and the national defences standpoint anyways. And I found, I thrived. I was actually pretty good at it and it was a lot of fun and I enjoyed getting up there and teaching people, I was never the type of person who wanted to be at the front of the class. 

[01:48:18] Yet I was able to, I, I was able to do it in a way that, uh, was helping other people learn skills. And so I had to learn how to be the person who’s up in the front of the class and not just be the gray man. And consequently, I started doing some training at the Justice Institute of British Columbia as a teenager. And uh, enhancing what I knew and I just found some natural things that I could do, while I was still going to school and do some training programs on, on weekends. 

[01:48:54] That was never supposed to be what the business model was. It was just something I did that I enjoy. The business model was supposed to be, uh, more machining and woodworking and, uh, basically doing it being a self-taught millwright and the gunsmithing all around that. Cause I, I really enjoy creating things. 

[01:49:17] I realized after the first year or two, that if, unless you’ve, unless you’re a ticketed millwright and you want to be able to do this as a business, uh, most people don’t want to pay a kid top dollar to work or build them stuff. Most people will trade you three-year-old freezer burnt venison or. 

[01:49:39] April Vokey: Excuse me. Bear meat. 

[01:49:40] Travis Bader: Different bits of parts and pieces. Oh, totally right. I got some great bear meat for ya. 

[01:49:45] April Vokey: Story of my life. 

[01:49:46] Travis Bader: Don’t get me wrong, I love bear meat. And uh, so I, it, that, and the fact that every job that came in was different and in order to be able to, uh, well, oh, well that is interesting. It doesn’t have a replicatable, uh, business model for long-term success. You’re basically, your your, the person working behind the counter at your local corner store, you’re running a business. 

[01:50:18] It’s the same thing. It’s a model that’s in place that I didn’t find very fulfilling in a creative process. So that’s, that’s why I took it to the training side. Cause I just, I saw so much that I could do to help others meet their needs. And I thought I’ve always felt it was a fulfilling thing for me. And I could see the, um, the growth industry. 

[01:50:45] April Vokey: Yep, absolutely. I love it. What other questions have you got? 

[01:50:50] Travis Bader: Okay. Here’s one, what’s a question that people should ask you, but haven’t yet?

[01:50:54] April Vokey: That sounds like a TikTok skit. 

[01:50:57] Travis Bader: I know. 

[01:50:59] April Vokey: That’s actually a really good question. I don’t know. There’s a few, I don’t know. 

[01:51:08] Travis Bader: Because there’s going to be experiences in your life that will bring value to other people that they can learn from, that either people have shied away from asking you, or it’s off-brand to, to whatever the, uh, the platform that you’re currently on.

[01:51:26] April Vokey: Um, I think, and this isn’t something I want to go into now, but I think a question that would S that people don’t ask me, but they should, is probably politically, which side of the fence I sit on. I think a lot of people assume to know my thoughts on things and they have no idea. Um. 

[01:51:42] Travis Bader: You’re libertarian. Already know it. 

[01:51:44] April Vokey: You’d be surprised. You’d be surprised. Uh, I’m definitely, I think I’m a rational human being and I see both sides, but yeah, I think that would surprise a lot of people. What I’m afraid of um, I think would probably surprise some people. That’s a pretty shallow one, I mean, I’m afraid of the dark. It’s pretty simple one, but something that I think what surprise a lot of people is my opinion on masculinity and men. 

[01:52:07] Travis Bader: Okay. 

[01:52:07] April Vokey: Because recently with, you know, in light of all the me too stuff. And like you’d mentioned earlier, just bringing it back to what you said about female based, I think you said education. 

[01:52:17] Travis Bader: Right. 

[01:52:18] April Vokey: Um I think that people would be surprised to hear my thoughts and opinions on men today. Given I have such an interesting history of men with my career. You know, I hear that all the time. What’s it like to be a woman in a male dominated industry. And I have got stories for days, stories for days about horrible things about men in the industry. 

[01:52:42] Travis Bader: Right. 

[01:52:43] April Vokey: But that doesn’t make me look at men differently today. Um, like I think, I mean, it does for sure. I look at the industry. I’m very jaded when I look at the industry and certain professionals, but I think that a lot of people assume I’m on board with this whole woman push because I am admittedly a feminist, back in the day, what feminist used to be, which was just like equality for both sides. 

[01:53:04] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[01:53:05] April Vokey: Before we started tickets to this radical extreme, but I think people would be surprised to know my take on toxic masculinity, which is interesting because you may be somebody who is deemed as, I mean, do you open the door for women these days?

[01:53:21] Travis Bader: Yes. 

[01:53:21] April Vokey: You know, that’s frowned upon, right, like. 

[01:53:23] Travis Bader: I do. 

[01:53:23] April Vokey: In some circles that’s really frowned. 

[01:53:24] Travis Bader: Is that bad? 

[01:53:25] April Vokey: Upon. Yeah yeah. Um, um. 

[01:53:26] Travis Bader: I, I am, I am so out of touch with, with all that stuff. I, I might be a bit of a luddite on it, but I, I I’ve had younger generations look at me and, uh, I know like I’m a, like, I’m a dinosaur. Those in their twenties and thirties. I’m not that much older, but they look at me like, I’m just like, not in a bad way. Like I’ve had people admire me cause, you’re were so manly, and I’m like, compared to what? 

[01:53:54] April Vokey: Right. Well nowadays, and I think, so I think that’s something that, and it will all circle back to politically, but that’s just one element. That’s probably the safest, most relatable element, just because, like I said, fly fishing as a woman in fly fishing. I think that is one conversation that would surprise people is that I don’t, I’m not against men. I love men. I’m married to an alpha male. I’m probably an alpha female. Our marriage is very interesting. Um, but. 

[01:54:19] Travis Bader: Yes. 

[01:54:19] April Vokey: I am definitely not, even though I’m for equality. I think that it’s been taken too far recently, so that is always a topic over a whiskey or a glass of wine that is surprising to very close friends of mine when we start to go down that road. 

[01:54:37] Travis Bader: Yeah. I, I think that there’s a lot of people that form their opinions on whatever might be going on at the current time based on what the popular wave is. And they’re afraid to buck that trend and they lack the moral fortitude and integrity to be able to stand up and say, you know what? This is how I feel and why. Or like, I’m okay if somebody holds the door open for me in the same breath, I, I’m not going to be upset. If a woman holds the door open for me, that’s fine.

[01:55:06] I probably end up grabbing it and say, after you, not a problem, cause that’s how I was raised. And in fact, I did that today. I opened, I scooted up in front, I had a meeting with a, uh, with the person that we do business with and I scooted up in front and opened the door to the restaurant for her, not even thinking twice about it. And now that you bring. 

[01:55:25] April Vokey: That’s, that’s toxic masculinity right there at its finest. 

[01:55:29] Travis Bader: Is that what they sayin? 

[01:55:30] April Vokey: I think I haven’t listened. I admittedly listen to an unhealthy amount of Jordan Peterson. 

[01:55:38] Travis Bader: Which I don’t know if there’s such a thing. 

[01:55:40] April Vokey: For certain people though, for certain people, they’ve listened to one eight minute segment on YouTube and they know enough about him and they’ve automatically pigeonholed me. They’ve just put me in a box that I am, you know, of one mindset or the other. I don’t agree with everything he says, but, um, but yeah, I mean, in some people’s viewpoints back to holding a door open, that would be something that would be highly offensive. 

[01:56:02] And this is all very new. So I think I, and again, I don’t open this crazy can of like enormous earthworms here, but politically all of it right now, the whole disaster of cancel culture, the trans movement, which again, I’m not against any of these things. I just believe in, like, if you call me a birthing parent, I’m going to punch you in the face. And I’m serious. That is really, really offensive to me right? Like I just. You heard of this. 

[01:56:33] Travis Bader: So you’re gonna have to tell me, I’m sorry. You’re going to have to fill me in, what’s a birthing parent?

[01:56:37] April Vokey: Oh, oh oh, a mother, mother. And listen, this is, these are real conversations. I had it out with a 25 year old, the other day, a very well enjoyable two hour long debate about this, but it is offensive now to call a mother, a mother, because it could be exclusive to people who aren’t women. What is a woman? The words, woman, woman is now offensive. So if you, if you’re now having a baby, you are called up birthing parent. 

[01:57:05] Travis Bader: Birthing unit. 

[01:57:06] April Vokey: Parent. Parent. 

[01:57:08] Travis Bader: You are a birthing unit. 

[01:57:11] April Vokey: A birthing person or birthing parents. 

[01:57:12] Travis Bader: That’s right. 

[01:57:13] April Vokey: So, so I think, I think just, you know, for entertainment sake, I think that would be something that would surprise a lot of people is my, um, which is my political stance, I think would be probably quite surprising to a lot of people. Given, given the feedback, people send me articles and people send me posts on social media and they’re like, you’ll really like this, and I’m going, why on earth? 

[01:57:36] Do you think because I was bullied by men that I’m going to like that. Or do you think, because I look at Patagonia that I’m this crazy liberal, like you need to take a step back and, and do you think that I automatically would vote for Biden because you think, you know, my stance on certain conservation issues? 

[01:57:51] I, I, so I think politically I would surprise a lot of people with the new movement and this new, um, world of woke-ism, which again, I agree with some of it and strongly disagree with other parts of it. So let’s just say, um, I listened to Ben Shapiro a lot, even though we don’t agree with everything, you know, I, I. 

[01:58:10] Travis Bader: That guys sharp as a whip. 

[01:58:11] April Vokey: He’s great. 

[01:58:12] Travis Bader: Years ago. 

[01:58:12] April Vokey: But a lot of people right now will tusk, stop listening to me. They, if they don’t dislike me already, they’ll dislike me after this because they will assume that I have to be on one side of the one side or the other. So I think that that’s, um, that’s just always interesting to me that we, as people, whether it be social media tidbits, or whether it be just putting someone in a box politically or at work within the outdoors. I get very frustrated with the fact that we seem to have discredited the amount of depth that human beings can actually have.

[01:58:43] Travis Bader: Yeah, I agree. And just a quick segue, the Ben Shapiro one, years ago, uh, I guess he came over to UBC and he was giving a lecture and I was contacted by somebody, they reached out and they said, you want to be a sponsor at this event, we got Ben Shapiro. It’s going to be awesome. And I said, who? Like, I don’t know who this guy is right. 

[01:59:01] And, and, uh, they said, oh, it’ll be totally on brand. Because like, right-wing like firearms owners and these kind of people they’re going to love, love him. Like, this is what you want to be involved with. I’m like, yeah, no, thanks. Like this guy seems like too hot to touch. I’ve quickly did a quick YouTube.

[01:59:16] And, and I, I didn’t know much about him. Other than that, people were like rioting and, and trying to drive him out to different audiences. In hindsight, it would have been awesome to sponsor that event and get to meet the guy because, you know, he’s extremely sharp, albeit sometimes controversial, oftentimes controversial.

[01:59:33] Uh, and he takes a different approach than Peterson, for example, uh, where Peterson, I don’t want to ascribe a percentage, but if I was asked to, I would say almost 90% of what Peterson comes up with are questions or observations, they’re not, you have to do this. There are some things that you’ll get hard and fast on, but for the most part, he thinks really hard and really deeply about things.

[01:59:57] And ask certain things like why is it that A, B and C, and it’s very easy to debate or it’s, he’s a very good debater. It’s easier to debate a position when you’re not taking that firm stance on certain things when you’re actually asking questions and putting the other person on that, that, and so I think the majority of what Peterson comes up with actually isn’t controversial. It’s just. 

[02:00:22] April Vokey: Thought provoking. 

[02:00:24] Travis Bader: People. Right. And so I find people are so intertwined with their political ideologies nowadays, more so than ever, in such a way. And this is funny because it’s something I talked about a couple of days ago with Sonny, the ex British special forces commando, just so closely intertwined. I am liberal or I am conservative, or I am whatever it might be. And if somebody asks some questions about it or, uh, shines light on other possible alternatives, it’s. 

[02:00:58] April Vokey: They’re shunned. 

[02:00:58] Travis Bader: It seems to fundamentally offend them at their core because they said, that’s me. How can, how can you look at me and ask those sort of questions, whether that be gender identity, whether that be like you’re saying, um, uh, toxic masculinity. I mean, this is what everyone’s saying. This is what you have to do. 

[02:01:20] April Vokey: Yeah. 

[02:01:20] Travis Bader: It’s, it’s human nature. I think. At its very core, its human nature wanting to belong. And I remember being raised, I mean my, my father would always point out someone who’s got a spiked hair cut or dyed hair or someone wearing an earring. It’s like, look at this person and trying to be cool. Just trying to be original, just like everybody else. Right. Well, interesting observation from, from the beat cops detect or beat cops perspective. Um, but it’s the same thing now. 

[02:01:55] People want to belong. They want to know they’re lacking an identity of their own and they’re trying very hard to hold on to whatever they feel is a popular identity. And quite often that popular identity now is looking at how unpopular I am, look at how different I am. Um. 

[02:02:15] April Vokey: Yeah, good point. 

[02:02:16] Travis Bader: Yeah. Well, um, I think, uh, I think we’re far more complex as humans than just what we do for work or just what we do for our hobbies. Uh, April, I am so excited about being able to showcase your courses through Silvercore.

[02:02:34] I can’t wait for others to be able to take this and provide feedback and, and be able to experience what I’ve been able to experience through them. Thank you very much for being on the podcast here again. And I look forward to when we are able to get back together in person. 

[02:02:52] April Vokey: Me too. Thank you for letting me ramble. Thank you for everyone listening, dealing with me, being pushed around and cut off by a three and a half year old. I really appreciate your patience with me and giving me the chance to talk. You know, it’s so nice to be able to have, uh, to really actually be able to have a two-way conversation. So thank you.

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