Silvercore Podcast 188 Blair Hagen

[00:00:00] Travis Bader: Decades Ottawa has been chipping away at what Canadians are allowed to own, usually by decree, rarely with a real debate. My guest has spent 30 years pushing back. He started as a field officer in Vancouver and worked his way to the top of Canada's National Firearms Association. He's watched the bans pile up, and the same fights come around again, and he's still at it.

This week, in the hardest stretch the organization has faced, he's the one carrying it. Welcome to the Silvercore Podcast, Blair Hagen. 

[00:00:45] Blair Hagen: Thank you for having me. 

[00:00:46] Travis Bader: Okay, Blair. Before we get into any of this, the NFA lost Rick this week, and I want to give you the room to speak to that first in whatever way- Sure

you feel is right. 

[00:00:55] Blair Hagen: Sure. Yeah. I know it's, uh, was, uh, quite sudden for most people. [00:01:00] Uh, but, uh, our president, Rick Ikercich, uh, did pass away, uh, a couple of days ago. Uh, uh, if you're on our social media, uh, you saw it immediately, but, uh, it, uh, you know, uh, it, it was pretty, uh, it was pretty tragic in a lot of ways.

Uh, Rick started out as, I mean, as we all do, field officer, and then you work your way up into, uh, uh, provincial executives. Uh, he was an Ontario director for a while, and, uh, then finally was elected, uh, president of Canada's National Firearms Association. Um, a couple of months ago, um, it became apparent that s- he was starting to get ill.

He took a leave of absence, said, "Look, I need to deal with this. Uh, I gotta see a doctor, and, uh, give me a couple of months. I'll be back on my feet, and, uh, I'll continue." Fortunately, it didn't, uh, work out that way, and, uh, he, uh, uh, eventually ended up p- going into hospital, [00:02:00] uh, and then hospice, and, uh, passed away.

[00:02:04] Travis Bader: Now I think there's, uh, on the website I believe, uh, the family's asked if people wanna make donations. There's a couple of places. I think the hospice is one of them. That's right. The Cancer Society's another one. 

[00:02:15] Blair Hagen: Yeah. Yeah, and you can find that information on, uh, our website and, uh, our social media. So, uh, if, uh, if you n- knew Rick, uh, liked him, wanna make a donation, that information is there.

[00:02:28] Travis Bader: So Blair, I'm going back in my memory banks a little bit. I'm going back to when I am a teenager, late teens, and I see you coming out to the Historical Arms Collectors Gun Show- Yeah ... setting up a table and, and putting up the banners and handing out flyers to people. 

[00:02:44] Blair Hagen: Yeah. 

[00:02:45] Travis Bader: You've come a hell of a long way since then.

[00:02:47] Blair Hagen: Yeah. It's, it's been a long, long road, I'll say that. Yeah. Um, I, I got s- started to get involved back in, uh, '94, '95, uh, because of, uh, well, I mean, uh, because [00:03:00] of the long gun registry. 

[00:03:01] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:03:01] Blair Hagen: And we all knew what that meant. I mean, if they managed to register all the guns, they're going to be coming for them at some point.

Um, I, I had sort of been aware what was happening with gun laws previously. As you know, there was legislation from the, uh, Progressive Conservative government in the early 1990s, which contained a lot of bans and stuff like that. And then of course, uh, when the Liberals were elected in, uh, '93, uh, they made it their, uh, first order of business to, uh, to bring about, uh, gun legislation.

Uh, got a copy of the proposed legislation and read it, and, you know, it became obvious that this was the end of rights and freedoms in Canada, right? 

[00:03:40] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:03:41] Blair Hagen: So I had to do something. And, uh, I took a look around at the various organizations that, uh, were, were, were present then, and, uh, I became aware of, uh, National Firearms Association and, uh, its president, uh, David [00:04:00] Tomlinson.

[00:04:00] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:04:00] Blair Hagen: And I read his stuff, and, uh, Dave picked apart the legislation. And- 

[00:04:05] Travis Bader: He wasn't a lawyer or anything like that, but he, he analyzed it like a lawyer would analyze it. Yeah. And he'd pick holes in things in, in ways that somebody who only knows the material extremely well can. 

[00:04:17] Blair Hagen: E- e- exactly, and, and coming from a background of firearms expertise- Mm

he, he was just the guy to do it. 

[00:04:22] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:04:23] Blair Hagen: So he picked apart the legislation, um, showed its flaws, uh, showed, uh, what, uh, some of the regulations, uh, really meant and, uh, basically predicted, uh, that, uh, it would fail. 

[00:04:36] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:04:37] Blair Hagen: And, uh, of course, uh, at that point in time everybody laughed at him and said, "No, no, no, Dave, you're wrong," especially the mainstream media and, you know, the mainstream political parties.

[00:04:46] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[00:04:47] Blair Hagen: And, um, but, um, I got ahold of his, his writings on it and, uh, it sort of, uh, it sort of gave me hope that it could be, uh, corrected, the situation could be corrected, and I think it did that [00:05:00] for a lot of people. 

[00:05:00] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. Yeah, he... I, I remember, uh, when authorizations of transport, they were, uh, e- even the RCMP or at that time the Canadian Firearms Center, before they were calling themselves the Canadian Firearms Program- 

[00:05:14] Blair Hagen: Yeah 

[00:05:16] Travis Bader: They didn't know really what they're doing with these ATTs and how they're going out, so Dave wrote a ATT cheat sheet, and, uh, he made it normative for not only the individuals trying to get an authorization to transport, but also for the firearms program.

When they look at it, it's like, "Oh, yeah, here's another one coming in. We know the process." So- 

[00:05:34] Blair Hagen: Yeah ... 

[00:05:34] Travis Bader: I th- I thought that was a pretty, pretty neat thing that one individual with a keen mind and the ability to put pen to paper and put it out and disseminate to people was able to not only affect change within the community, but also within the people that sometimes the community feels is their enemy, right?

The Man, the government. 

[00:05:52] Blair Hagen: Yeah, sure. But it, it had to be done. 

[00:05:55] Travis Bader: Right. 

[00:05:55] Blair Hagen: I mean, if, uh, if, if it hadn't been done, um, you'd be waiting [00:06:00] for answers from the bureaucracy, and, you know, that takes, as you know, that takes years and years and years. Meanwhile, you have people who, uh, wanna engage in legitimate activities with firearms.

[00:06:09] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:06:09] Blair Hagen: How can they do it? Because everything's gotta be authorized, right? 

[00:06:12] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:06:12] Blair Hagen: And if that authorization is not forthcoming or in a, in a way that, uh, is not conducive to al- allow legitimate legal activities with firearms, well, you know, Dave just kind of seized the day and said, "I'm just going to pick this apart and provide a guide forward on it."

[00:06:28] Travis Bader: Well, Dave's actions there are what, uh, encouraged me and kind of inspired me on the authorization to carry one. I- Yeah ... I said, "Well, if he can do that with the ATT, why can't I do something like that with the authorization to carry and work together with you guys at the NFA and Rachel Attilla there and- 

[00:06:45] Blair Hagen: Yeah

[00:06:46] Travis Bader: uh, helped her through her process of getting her ATC and created a complete template. And I should say we'll put links in the description if people wanna download the template. I've actually made an up-to-date one, which accounts for a few changes that have come through. 

[00:06:59] Blair Hagen: Yes. 

[00:06:59] Travis Bader: [00:07:00] So they can, they can see the work that we put in in order to, uh, normalize that process, but it also touches on, 'cause I'll bring it up a little later as well, it touches on the, the handgun freeze and the ability for people to still be able to purchase handguns.

[00:07:15] Blair Hagen: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, you know, a lot of people look at these bureaucracies, and they go, "It's just monolithic. Um, they don't communicate. Uh, there's not a lot of transparency," and they just give up. 

[00:07:27] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:07:27] Blair Hagen: Right? And that's the wrong thing to do. Mm-hmm. Okay? Uh- Firearms laws change, okay? The situation we have today is not gonna last forever.

Eventually we'll elect a new government, and there'll be more firearms law reform. But in the meantime, what do you do? You have to pick apart the, uh, leg- uh, the legislation, the regulations. You have to find ways of navigating that bureaucracy to engage in... And, and i- a lot of times they don't see it as legitimate.

They, they certainly don't see, uh, authorization to [00:08:00] carry as a legitimate, uh, pursuit with firearms even though it does exist in the firearms act and, and can be issued. They want to discourage people from doing it. 

[00:08:07] Travis Bader: And by they, you mean the firearms program. 

[00:08:09] Blair Hagen: The firearms program. 

[00:08:10] Travis Bader: And I know this 'cause they've told me that to my face.

[00:08:12] Blair Hagen: E- exactly. So. It's, it's like we do not want a lot of these in circulation because guns are bad, and handguns are worse than everything else, and why don't you just carry a long gun. Right. Okay. Because, uh, and it gets into things like they wanna denormalize the, uh, possession and use of handguns in Canada, the lawful possession and use.

[00:08:28] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:08:29] Blair Hagen: I mean, the, uh, criminal, uh, misuse, uh, well, they don't really care about that a lot. You 

[00:08:34] Travis Bader: know. Yeah, like what's actually happening, th- like that's a whole topic in itself. Oh, isn't 

[00:08:37] Blair Hagen: it? Yeah. 

[00:08:38] Travis Bader: But I mean, part of this is preaching to the choir because, uh, uh, when I look at our demographic that we deal with, hunting, firearms, outdoor activities, but we also reach people all over the world.

Right. Uh, UK is number three for downloads for us, and- Hmm ... they, they've got their own issues that they're dealing with. Yeah. Uh, Sweden I think is number four. Um, i- [00:09:00] interesting the, the wide reach that this podcast has, as well as people who've never been interested in firearms before. Yeah. So when I'm going through, and I've, I've put a bunch of questions and stuff together, w- I'm gonna try and talk as if not only the choir they know, like the, our government's enacting laws to limit legal firearms owners- ownership.

Yeah. The keyword there being legal. Uh, and they're not taking steps to actually address the root causes of criminality and violence, and all the, all the rest, but I'm gonna talk to the non-initiated as well so that they've got a little bit of, uh, uh, better insight. 

[00:09:34] Blair Hagen: Yeah. And, and it's something that we don't really, or, or haven't talked about certainly in the past, uh, is the culture of firearms in Canada.

Yeah. And we do have a, a gun culture. 

[00:09:44] Travis Bader: Yeah, we do. 

[00:09:44] Blair Hagen: And it's a very strong and a very proud gun culture, and it's, uh, a culture based on safety and respect, and all of those good things. But it has been abused and, uh, manhandled by successive governments in Ottawa that frankly have an i- [00:10:00] ideological agenda.

Right. Uh, there's just no other way to say it. Um, uh, as a community, we are organized now. Uh, we are organized politically. Yeah. Uh, we have a road ahead. We have pathways to correct what the liberals are doing. But- You really have to stand up for that. And I, I, I remember in the early days, a lot of, you know, uh, guys, guys of our fathers' generation didn't wanna do that because, you know, they took a look at, uh, the political situation in the excited states and kinda decided, "Well, you know, why- we'll just, uh, we'll just cooperate and c- compromise.

And yeah- Yeah ... I mean, some of these regulations are a little bit, uh, are, are, are a little bit frustrating, but, uh, you know, if it, if it's for public safety, it's, it's worth doing." Look what happened. 

[00:10:43] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:10:43] Blair Hagen: Okay? So it's, uh, is very, very important that we continue to be politically active, uh, politically present, um, not only in Ottawa, in the provinces, but, uh, standing up for this very, very proud culture.

I mean, we have nothing, uh, to apologize for. [00:11:00] We are the best kind of Canadians. All right? 

[00:11:03] Travis Bader: When I look at it, and I'll play devil's advocate, okay, so we have some people who, uh, know firearms, collect firearms, use firearms, and they've, they've got a good grasp on what that culture's like and what it all looks like.

We've got people out there who maybe they were negatively affected by firearms- Of course ... and crime and whatever it might be, and they're vehemently opposed. And so we've got these two sides. But the vast, vast majority of people out there, th- they're neither here nor there, and they- Yes ... they look at this, and they say, "Well, why does anyone need a firearm?"

Sure. And they say, "Yeah, okay. That- I guess that makes sense. If we ban these guns, then there's gonna be no more, no more gun crimes, right?" 

[00:11:41] Blair Hagen: Well, there's not a lot of, lot out of them out there. I don't know anybody who owns a gun. Uh, there are people like that who, who don't have a, a cultural reference- 

[00:11:49] Travis Bader: Hmm

[00:11:49] Blair Hagen: for it and sorta see guns as a, a, a bad thing, um, you know, based on, uh, their opinions, uh, a lot of them mistaken, uh, about the [00:12:00] situation in the United States, and they base it off of that. Yeah. Um, you know, as far as, you know, affected neg- negatively, uh, there's, there's not a lot of people. Uh, of course, as you know, gun crime in Canada, uh, certainly in the past was, uh, very low.

We had a very, very safe society. Uh, firearms, uh, were not generally used in crime, and when they were, uh, the perpetrators, uh, got very, very stiff sentences- 

[00:12:24] Travis Bader: Hmm ... 

[00:12:25] Blair Hagen: because of the presence of the gun in the offense. Now, all of that in the last, I wanna say 40 years progressively has changed, where, uh, although the, uh, use of the firearm is used negatively, the sentencing no longer reflects it.

Hmm. Okay? Gun charges are among the first that are dropped. I mean, you talk about people who've been, uh, negatively affected by firearms, and, and I can understand that because I have. 

[00:12:49] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:12:49] Blair Hagen: Okay? I mean, I've been through two armed robberies. 

[00:12:52] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[00:12:52] Blair Hagen: Okay? And they're not fun. 

[00:12:54] Travis Bader: Tell me about that. Like that just is a completely different, I know this is an ADHD tangent, but I'm curious about [00:13:00] these armed robberies.

[00:13:00] Blair Hagen: Oh, really? Oh, okay. Yeah. I mean, yeah, no, uh, two, yeah, two armed robberies, uh, uh, my, you know, through my employer, uh, Lever Arm Service- 

[00:13:09] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:13:10] Blair Hagen: in Vancouver, which, uh, yeah, uh, I, I think most people would be, uh, familiar with, uh, c- uh, Vancouver's longest standing gun store. 

[00:13:17] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:13:18] Blair Hagen: And, uh, yeah, um, very, very close to downtown Vancouver, and, uh, this is going back, uh, a few years.

But, uh, uh, the first one, um, a couple of guys come into the, uh, store expressing interest in looking at guns, and, uh, demonstrate the guns. One, his buddy walks out, walks back in, takes a, uh, takes a pistol out his coat, out of his coat and points it at me. 

[00:13:45] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[00:13:46] Blair Hagen: So anyways, uh, that's frightening. 

[00:13:48] Travis Bader: So tell, tell me this, you know firearms, you've seen firearms.

[00:13:51] Blair Hagen: Yes. 

[00:13:52] Travis Bader: When you got one stuck in your face like that, are you looking at it saying, "Is that real? Is it not real?" Or are you just like, "Okay, we're just gonna assume this thing's real, and here we go." [00:14:00] 

[00:14:00] Blair Hagen: Well, that's exactly it, and that has an impact on the second story I'll tell you. 

[00:14:03] Travis Bader: Okay. 

[00:14:04] Blair Hagen: But, uh, takes it out of his waistband.

I recognize it. It's a, it's a Chinese Tokarev handgun. Yeah. So what do I do? What do I do? Uh, first thing I do, I throw up my hands and I start backing up. 

[00:14:15] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:14:16] Blair Hagen: And I'm backing up, and everybody else in the store is like, "What's Blair doing?" 

[00:14:19] Travis Bader: Yeah. "

[00:14:19] Blair Hagen: Why is he doing that? What's going on?" I back up, I back right out of the store.

Uh, they, uh, they get frightened and they, uh, take off. 

[00:14:30] Travis Bader: Okay. 

[00:14:30] Blair Hagen: So luckily that ended, you know, that particular, uh, that particular episode. Uh, the second one, um- I'm standing at the, uh, the till, and, uh, if you, you were, if you were familiar with Lever Arms in Vancouver, it was not set up like your typical gun store.

[00:14:49] Travis Bader: Right. 

[00:14:49] Blair Hagen: Okay? 

[00:14:50] Travis Bader: Right. Yes. 

[00:14:51] Blair Hagen: And it, uh, it was kind of an odd little store, uh, in a basement in a building in Vancouver, and, uh, th- there was an entrance, the front, [00:15:00] front entrance, which was blind. I mean, if, uh, i- if, uh, w- w- a l- a window was later put in so you could see p- people coming- Right ... and going out. But there was also a motion detector and bell to announce people coming in.

So you would walk into the store, and it would announce you, bing bong, and you could, uh, the staff could look up and see who was coming in. So I'm standing at the till, and, uh, hear the bell, bing bong, and I see a character coming in through the entrance. Uh, hands, uh, a full hoodie, hoodie over his head and face, hands in his pockets, and then, uh, my, uh, my spidey senses kinda go up.

[00:15:37] Travis Bader: Yes. 

[00:15:39] Blair Hagen: This, there's something going on here. Yes. And I, so I start moving, you know? 

[00:15:44] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[00:15:44] Blair Hagen: And, uh- As 

[00:15:45] Travis Bader: one should ... 

[00:15:46] Blair Hagen: as one should. And, uh, very shortly afterwards, two other guys come in, and one of them's got a Sten gun. 

[00:15:55] Travis Bader: A Sten gun? 

[00:15:56] Blair Hagen: Yeah. 

[00:15:57] Travis Bader: Okay. So for people who don't know what a Sten gun is, [00:16:00] these, these aren't items that have been captured by the recent prohibition.

No. These are things that have been prohibited for a very long time. 

[00:16:07] Blair Hagen: Very, very long time. And you were saying, I mean, is, uh, you know, what do you think? Is this thing real or not, right? 

[00:16:12] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:16:13] Blair Hagen: And, uh, as we all know, there's, uh, there's a lot of, uh, de-watted Sten guns out there. 

[00:16:17] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[00:16:18] Blair Hagen: And, uh, but the fact of the matter is, it's not that hard.

[00:16:22] Travis Bader: I've seen de-watted Sten guns that fire. 

[00:16:25] Blair Hagen: Yes, I'm sure you have. 

[00:16:26] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:16:27] Blair Hagen: So have I. Mm-hmm. So, uh, what the fact of the matter is, uh, what do you do? I mean, you a- assume that this is not real and not live, go up and take it off him? No, I'm not going to do that. Mm-hmm. So again, I'm moving, and a Sten guy, a Sten gun guy comes in and, and covers the rest of the staff.

I'm in the back by this time, uh, calling 911. 

[00:16:49] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:16:50] Blair Hagen: So, you know- 

[00:16:52] Travis Bader: What a, what a difference between Canadian and American gun stores, because American gun stores might be a little bit different. 

[00:16:58] Blair Hagen: Well, exactly. [00:17:00] And, uh, i- i- and after those two incidents, I, I, I, you know, um, uh, you know, I explored getting a, a authorization to carry- Right

but of course, you know, I was refused. It's like, "You know, you don't need this." And it's a similar experience for other stores in Canada, and it really, really, uh, it, it, it, it confused me because you're in a store that's full of guns, ammo, and cash. 

[00:17:21] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:17:22] Blair Hagen: And you're not supposed to... And, and, and not only, you know, your lives too, because, you know, uh, uh, uh, perpetrators and criminals will assume, well, I mean, you know, we're gonna knock over a gun store, obviously those guys are gonna be armed.

And unfortunately, uh, you're disarmed by, uh, by bure- bureaucratic decree. 

[00:17:39] Travis Bader: Did I ever tell you about the time that, uh, and I was helping out Hunter's Sporting Goods back in the day when Hunter's Sporting Goods was around? 

[00:17:46] Blair Hagen: Yeah. 

[00:17:46] Travis Bader: And, uh, uh, they were looking to get authorizations to carry, and we went through the process.

From my perspective, I think a gun store can get it, and there are provisions in the, um- Firearms Act, regulations, [00:18:00] criminal code that, that allow for this. 

[00:18:01] Blair Hagen: Sure. 

[00:18:02] Travis Bader: Um, but it gets onerous after a certain point, and people say, "Well, geez, I got, I got work to do, or do I just keep fighting this thing further and further?"

[00:18:09] Blair Hagen: Right. 

[00:18:10] Travis Bader: But, um, they were told that they were the closest to ever having been issued an authorization- Mm ... to carry. The last hurdle that they were given, 'cause they met every single hurdle- Mm ... was you have to get a letter from the chief of police from your area saying that, um, police protection is not adequate.

And they said not from a police officer, but it has to be from the chief, and the chief has to say police- Right ... protection isn't adequate in their area. And there's no chief that's gonna turn around and say, "Oh yeah, by the way, we- we're just not adequate to be able to, uh, to assist you." At least no chief that I've seen up here.

I've seen video clips of some, uh, chiefs and sheriffs in the States that have no problem saying that. Sure. "When seconds count, the police are minutes away." But- 

[00:18:52] Blair Hagen: E- ex- exactly, so, uh, it's prevented by a bureaucratic de- uh, decree. 

[00:18:55] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:18:55] Blair Hagen: And it's similar in the cases of individual ATCs as well. I mean, unless there's an [00:19:00] active police file and the police have, have signed off saying that, "No, we can't provide adequate protection for this individual," then you're not getting it.

Yeah. And even if you do get it, and, uh, I'd be very surprised if there's any active ATCs in Canada right now. But, uh, no, it's just- Active 

[00:19:15] Travis Bader: for- 

[00:19:16] Blair Hagen: Uh, individuals, uh- I see ... yeah, and certainly not for business. 

[00:19:20] Travis Bader: For protection of life. 

[00:19:21] Blair Hagen: That's right. For protect- protection of life. A- 

[00:19:23] Travis Bader: as opposed to you're working a remote area, or your primary activity is the transport of cash or negotiables.

[00:19:28] Blair Hagen: That's right, yeah. So, um, it, it... and it's done that way by design because, uh, they, they will accept, uh, that, yes, there are some instances, very, very few and, uh, very, very narrow, where an individual may have to carry a handgun. Right. We do not want this to spread because it, again, it's the boogeyman of the United States, you know?

And, uh, unfortunately, uh, k- there are states in the United States that are more safe than Canada- 

[00:19:56] Travis Bader: Mm ... 

[00:19:57] Blair Hagen: because of the presence of armed individuals. Uh, but of [00:20:00] course, it gets into a cultural thing, you know, good old-fashioned Canadian parochialism. You know, we, we do things different here. We have a safer society.

Well, I'll tell you what, we don't. Uh, our society is just as, uh, as violent, uh, as, uh, places in the United States, but, uh, the fact is there's just fewer Canadians. 

[00:20:19] Travis Bader: So there's gonna be people, 'cause I hear it often, "What can I do?" Right? Yeah. "What, what can I do? I'm not Blair. I don't have his knowledge. I don't have his background.

Of course Blair can do it, but- ... but what, what can I do?" Right? So can you tell me a little bit about your background and temperament, and, uh, how- How you use that to do what you do, and maybe some of the toll that takes on you, because you fighting for 30 years, fighting, fighting. It's- Yeah ... it takes a toll.

[00:20:49] Blair Hagen: Well, sure. Um, well, I mean, I was like anybody else. I mean, you know, I had a basic... When I got started, I had a basic understanding of firearms, sure. I mean, you know, from my, my family, that sort [00:21:00] of thing, I was familiar with firearms. Mm. But, uh, not so much familiar with firearms law, uh, legislation, and definitely politics.

And of course back in the early '90s, uh, maybe some people w- will, uh, remember the political situation then, but, uh, uh, I, I know people are despondent now because of the political situation in Canada, but in the early 1990s it was even worse. 

[00:21:21] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:21:21] Blair Hagen: Okay? Because both, uh, all the major political parties, uh, were anti-gun.

[00:21:27] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:21:28] Blair Hagen: Okay? The progressive conservatives, the liberals, the NDP, they were all anti-gun, and we didn't have a lot of, uh, choices in the type of political action we could take. Then, uh, obviously you had the coming of the Reform Party, uh, the, uh, dissolution of the Progressive Conservative Party, and of course the whole conservative movement in Canada changed, and it changed for the better, uh, especially in terms of firearms.

And, uh, a lot of individuals, uh, especially in National Farms Association, but, you know, other individuals, [00:22:00] other organizations, made a very, very big investment in that, uh, to the point today where we have a major political party, mainstream political party, that is supportive of, uh, the Canadian right and cultural tradition of firearms ownership.

Mm-hmm. And if you don't have that, because i- if you look at other countries in the world, um, you're not gonna be able to make any headway in protecting your rights and freedoms. Uh, if you look at, you know, places like Australia, UK, um, that have suffered very greatly, it's because, uh, the mainstream political parties would not take this up as, uh, a part of their policy.

[00:22:36] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:22:36] Blair Hagen: We understand this to be your right. We understand this to be a le- legitimate part of Canadian cultur- culture. And that's the Conservative Party today. 

[00:22:44] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:22:45] Blair Hagen: And it's been a very long, hard fight to do that, uh, to correct the, the attitudes of the old Progressive Conservative Party of 30, 40 years ago, uh, which tolerated firearms ownership, but, uh, was not, certainly not in favor of it and did [00:23:00] not want to, uh, protect, uh, uh, gun rights in Canada, to a point now where we have a major political party, uh, that has formed government, has introduced firearms law reform, and, uh, I believe will do so again.

[00:23:12] Travis Bader: You know, politicians, they always say either first job's to get elected, second job's to stay elected, right? 

[00:23:17] Blair Hagen: Yeah. 

[00:23:17] Travis Bader: Uh, I see firearms used mostly as a wedge issue. Sure. "Okay, we're gonna, we're gonna, uh, ban all of these guns, and, but our opponents here, they wanna see everybody walking around with an AK-47- Yeah

and driving around 24/7 with guns in their glove box." And, and, and it's all lies. It's all, it's all- Yeah ... political theater, right? 

[00:23:36] Blair Hagen: Abso- ab- absolutely. Uh, uh, a lot of it's deliberate. A lot of it's- Sure ... a lot of it's based on ignorance, because there, there is a lot of ignorance about firearms, and, uh, the problem is, um, certainly those, uh, in Ottawa and elsewhere who would, uh, disarm us are proud of that ignorance.

[00:23:54] Travis Bader: I think, so when you say ignorance, my, my take on that is [00:24:00] ignorance from the populous about firearms, I don't necessarily think parties that are trying to ban guns are themselves ignorant, because they've gotten to a certain level, and at the very least they have certain advisors. I think they know- Yes

full well what they're doing, and the efficacy of a ban towards curbing, let's say, violence or things that are stemmed from poverty and from, uh, socio, uh, demographic- Yeah ... kind of issues, and ec- economics. And I think the, uh, they rely on the ignorance of the public and are being intentionally manipulative of that information.

[00:24:36] Blair Hagen: Well, e- sure. The advisors do know that. 

[00:24:38] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[00:24:38] Blair Hagen: Okay? And there is a cadre, uh, in the Canadian government, uh, in the bureaucracies, the various ministries, that do want to see a disarmed count- uh, country, and, uh, it's always been there, okay? And they will, uh, use whatever government that is in power to pursue that agenda.

Uh, if it's a, a, a, a more right-leaning government, while [00:25:00] you're not going to, uh, uh, get as much, uh, of your agenda done. But, uh, even under the Harper government, there were firearms bans and confiscations- Mm-hmm ... and people seem to forget about that. Mm-hmm. They were very, very limited in scale, very, very small in scope- But, uh, it happened.

So it wasn't all good news. 

[00:25:20] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:25:20] Blair Hagen: I mean, yes, the long gun registry was ended, and that was the 800-pound gorilla. 

[00:25:25] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:25:25] Blair Hagen: Um, but... And other reforms achieved, uh, before they, uh, th- they lost power. But, uh, that bureaucracy did, uh, continue to target firearms owners, uh, did continue to target their property, and yes, people lost guns.

I mean, it wasn't on the scale that we're- we're seeing today, but it did happen. Uh- Yeah ... so. 

[00:25:45] Travis Bader: I think that word that you just said there, property, I think that's the one that segues from the people who are like, "Why are you taking my guns? It's a legitimate thing. We have a gun culture- Yeah ... and all the rest," that expands to people who have no interest, have never touched a gun, don't know anyone who has one.[00:26:00] 

If they can do that to you so easily, what's next? What they can th- what can they do to me? And I think that's why these parties are starting to take it up, 'cause they realize, okay, hold on a second, the end outcome of this, these bans and confiscations based off of fear- Yeah ... and political posturing, not evidence-based, um, but hey, it's working for us.

What's the next thing that we can do out of fear and political posturing to, uh, which might deprive other individuals of their property? 

[00:26:30] Blair Hagen: A- a- absolutely. And rights. And, and, and I, I think you see that more so to- today. Mm. Um, because it's not just guns. I mean, uh, especially here in BC, I mean, we have a lot of, uh, uh, people, property owners who are, are, are very, very frightened and frustrated, uh, you know, over, uh, l- land claims issues.

[00:26:49] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[00:26:49] Blair Hagen: It, it's like, uh, if the government... you know, a, a court decision comes down and it's like, "Well, no, you don't own this, your property." "Well, I've been paying a mortgage on it for 30 years." "Well, so [00:27:00] sorry." 

[00:27:00] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[00:27:00] Blair Hagen: Um, and then you add into things like massive, uh, gun bans and attempted, uh, confiscations, yeah, people are, I was gonna say starting to wake up, but I think people have woken up to, uh, the very real threats.

And it's the scale that it takes place on. If it's just affecting someone else or, you know, this little group here or that little group there, um, people can tend to ignore that. Mm. But when you're looking at, uh, for example, with, uh, uh, the current gun grab, we're, we're, we're talking about hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of firearms.

[00:27:35] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:27:36] Blair Hagen: Okay? And that affects a lot of people. I know the government downplays the numbers. Uh, they did the same thing with long gun registry, but, uh, they downplay the numbers and, uh, certainly, uh, in terms of the compliance that they got and, you know, uh, people in the general public. I- i- if, if you know nothing about firearms in Canada, they might look impressive to you, but if you know something about firearms laws or firearms in Canada, [00:28:00] yeah, you, you can see how badly this current gun grab is failing.

[00:28:03] Travis Bader: Mm. So the NFA- 50 years of advocating for firearms rights. Um, I, from an outsider, I see the easy path. The easy path is to catastrophize and to play to people's fears and to, to rile people up, and I don't see the NFA Taking that route, how do you- 

[00:28:25] Blair Hagen: Right. 

[00:28:26] Travis Bader: Yeah. Um, how do you keep the NFA's claims credib- credible without catastrophizing which pays better?

[00:28:33] Blair Hagen: Y- yeah. And, a- and I, I can understand, uh, why, uh, some people do that. I mean, I've seen it in the past certainly. 

[00:28:42] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[00:28:42] Blair Hagen: And there's always an element of truth to that. 

[00:28:44] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[00:28:44] Blair Hagen: Okay? But why do that when you can provide a positive path forward, a positive, uh, a positive, uh, path of political reforms, uh, g- being involved in, [00:29:00] in, uh, uh, politics, not only at the federal level, but also at the provincial level?

And we see how important that is now, don't we? 

[00:29:06] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:29:06] Blair Hagen: Majority of provinces in Canada not supporting, uh, the liberal gun grab. 

[00:29:11] Travis Bader: That's crazy. Like, I'm trying to rack my brain. Has this happened in other areas, where a federal law comes through and the provinces are like, "Eh, we're gonna do everything we can to find a way to, to not support this?"

[00:29:21] Blair Hagen: Oh, I'm sure it's happened in, in, in the past. Certainly not with firearms. I mean, this is unprecedented. 

[00:29:26] Travis Bader: Right. That- I've never seen it on firearms. 

[00:29:28] Blair Hagen: Yeah. Uh, the, the majority of provinces in Canada, and even the majority of law enforcement agencies in Canada, do not want to have any part of this. Mm. And of course, that sets the federal agenda back, because when you have the cooperation of provinces, uh, that are providing resources and logistics, and you have the, uh, cooperation of law enforcement agencies who are enthusiastic about, uh, getting these guns, then it makes that job much easier.

But, uh, the- You 

[00:29:53] Travis Bader: have the social currency to be able to do something. 

[00:29:55] Blair Hagen: Yeah. 

[00:29:55] Travis Bader: Now they lack that. 

[00:29:57] Blair Hagen: They don't. I- th- they don't have it. I, [00:30:00] I, I don't think they had it from the beginning, because people, I think right from the, the get-go on this, people are going, "Oh, they banned a bunch of guns. Okay. Uh, and they're going to take them off their owners."

Well, these people purchased them legally. They own them legally. They all got firearms licenses. They've demonstrated that they're not a danger to public safety. Well, why are you doing this? Oh, they're dan- too dangerous to be in circulation. Well, it's b- it was, it's been proven the opposite. 

[00:30:24] Travis Bader: Right. And not only that, but tell you what, while we get around to taking them from you, you guys just hold onto them for a bunch of years.

I know, right? Because they're so dangerous, but you guys just keep holding onto it. 

[00:30:35] Blair Hagen: Yeah. 

[00:30:35] Travis Bader: And, and we're not gonna extend the amnesty. Oh, okay, there's a court challenge. We're gonna extend the, the amnesty a little bit further. 

[00:30:41] Blair Hagen: W- wasn't the timing on that interesting, huh? 

[00:30:42] Travis Bader: That was interesting, wasn't it? 

[00:30:43] Blair Hagen: Yeah, yeah.

No, it was, uh, um, uh, uh, it, it was always my, my personal opinion, and of course, uh, y- at National Firearms Association, you, you constant- constantly get questions from people going, "What should I do? What should I do?" Well, we're not gonna, we're not gonna, uh, uh, [00:31:00] advise you to do something, okay? We, we're gonna tell you what you have to do and what you don't have to do- Mm

number one, okay? Well, the amnesty's coming up, and, you know, uh, do I get my gun deactivated? And, uh, boy, the, the, the options that they, they offered people are really- Uh, proving to be problematic. Do I get it deactivated? Do I export it? Uh, do I just, uh, you know, uh, sign up for this voluntary registration for confiscation?

What should I do? Uh, do you think they'll hold to that amnesty? And, you know, knowing, uh, the logistics and, uh, the manpower that it would take to actually do that running up to October 30th, uh, I, I just had to tell people, "Look, it is my opinion- 

[00:31:45] Travis Bader: Mm ... 

[00:31:45] Blair Hagen: that they are going to have to extend this because they cannot achieve what they want to do by this date."

The majority of OIC firearms, Order in Council firearms, are still out there in the hands of their owners, okay? Uh, they have not [00:32:00] complied with the program, okay? So either the government decides to create hundreds of thousands of new criminals overnight- 

[00:32:08] Travis Bader: Mm ... 

[00:32:09] Blair Hagen: or they have to extend it. And y- you know, can you imagine if they held to that, uh, amnesty deadline, and all of a sudden, day after, okay, we're all criminals.

And eventually people get caught up in it. Why do you have this gun? Why d- why didn't you do something about it while you had- Yeah ... the opportunity? And, uh, you're standing in a courtroom, and, uh, you're in front of a judge, and the judge asks you, "Why didn't you comply?" "Well, I, I, I attempted to, Your Honor, but I just couldn't get it done."

"Well, why didn't you have the gun deactivated?" "I looked into that, but I couldn't find a gunsmith to do it." 

[00:32:39] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:32:40] Blair Hagen: Okay? And if you look at the situation with firearms businesses, and especially gunsmiths in Canada, they're dropping like flies now- Mm ... because, uh, various things, uh, firearms legislation, the OICs, the economy.

So it's gonna be very, very difficult, and I'm sure people are, are ha- having this, uh, this challenge right now, if you chose to go that [00:33:00] route, to actually- Yeah ... find a, a gunsmith to deactivate the gun for you. "Well, I couldn't find a gunsmith, Your Honor. I really, I really tried, but there was just nobody left that w- that could actually do it before the end of the deadline."

"Oh, okay. Well, why didn't you h- why didn't you export it?" "Okay. Well, I looked in- into that too, Your Honor, and, uh, unfortunately, I was told I could not e- export this gun to the United States." "What? Why not?" "Well, it was pr- it was, uh, prohibited from en- en- entry under US law." You know, why did you not export your AR-15 rifle to the United States?

Mm-hmm. Well, uh, illegal, unlawful to do that, Your Honor. Well, that's confusing. 

[00:33:39] Travis Bader: Yeah, you think? 

[00:33:40] Blair Hagen: Okay, why didn't you send it somewhere else? Where? I mean, w- where do the- You tell me 

[00:33:45] Travis Bader: where, yeah. 

[00:33:45] Blair Hagen: Yeah, exactly. Where, where do the majority of firearms exports, uh, from Canada go? The United States. That's right. Okay.

Couldn't send it to Australia. Banned there. 

[00:33:55] Travis Bader: Nope. 

[00:33:56] Blair Hagen: Couldn't send it to New Zealand. Right. Banned there. So where do you send it? Azerbaijan? [00:34:00] 

[00:34:00] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[00:34:00] Blair Hagen: I mean, so the logistics of trying to find a place for this gun to go, there you go. Okay. Well, uh, why, why didn't you turn it in? Where, Your Honor? Well, I mean, uh, your local law enforcement agency.

Well, they're not participating in this, Your Honor. 

[00:34:15] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[00:34:16] Blair Hagen: So what could I do? 

[00:34:18] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:34:20] Blair Hagen: It, it... and if you look at it on that basis, I mean, what court, what judge is gonna c- convict somebody who tried to comply with the law and was stymying at, stymied at every step? 

[00:34:32] Travis Bader: You know, you mentioned something earlier about gun charges.

Somebody does something and the g- gun charges are associated, one of the charges they have on there, and they're, they're usually the first ones to be dropped. 

[00:34:41] Blair Hagen: Yes. 

[00:34:42] Travis Bader: And I see that time and time again, and it's a tactic going to court that they use. It's like, "I'll tell you what, we'll just get rid of these ones over here- Mm-hmm

if you just admit to these ones here." And the reason is, is 'cause a lot of these charges don't hold up to a candle. A lot of the gun charges are- Yeah ... so poorly written, the [00:35:00] Firearms Act and the regulations, and it's so convoluted that in order to defend it, it's almost un- untenable to prosecute. And to defend it, you're either gotta be ignorant to what's the possibilities are or, uh, or just agree to the plea coming off.

[00:35:14] Blair Hagen: Oh, oh, very much so. But I mean, uh, e- even when it comes to the, uh, the violent misuse of firearms, even those firearms, uh, charges are dropped. I remember, uh, one of the, uh, the Lever Arms, uh, uh, hold ups, and, uh, uh, they actually caught the guys. 

[00:35:30] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[00:35:30] Blair Hagen: And, uh, we were notified that you will have to appear as witnesses, you know, uh, uh, you know, at this place on this date and testify against these individuals.

And we're going, "Oh, great. Okay, well, at least they got them." And, uh, in the run-up to that, you know, it's getting, you know, two weeks before we gotta go to court, you know, a week before we go to court, and a couple of days before we, we actually had to, uh, show up and testify, uh, we were notified by Crown that, "Uh, we don't need you anymore."

[00:35:56] Travis Bader: Yeah, they plead. 

[00:35:58] Blair Hagen: They, they plead out to another [00:36:00] charge from another offense, and they dropped the Lever Arms charge. 

[00:36:02] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:36:04] Blair Hagen: See? 

[00:36:05] Travis Bader: Yeah. And where's the logic in that one? I, I don't know. 

[00:36:09] Blair Hagen: Y- y- you know, firearms offenses, I mean, I'm talking about legitimate. 

[00:36:12] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[00:36:13] Blair Hagen: Legitimate, violent firearms offenses used to be taken seriously in this country.

[00:36:17] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:36:18] Blair Hagen: But I, I, I, I hate to tell everybody, but in, in a lot of cases it's just lip service now. It's like, "We're cracking down on gun violence." How? H- how, how are you doing that? By taking, uh, taking all these horrible, uh, uh, uh... What's the term they use now? Assault-style weapons. 

[00:36:36] Travis Bader: That's right. Yeah. These, uh, these variants and assault-style fair- right?

Nothing that's got a, uh, an, an, an actual legal term associated with that. 

[00:36:45] Blair Hagen: Well, they got caught on... They used to just call them assault weapons. Sure. Okay? And of course, you know, people go, "Well, they m- these must be fully automatic firearms, and why should anybody have these things?" And, you know, they got called on this because we, you know, if you're, if you know guns, uh, you know what an [00:37:00] actual, uh, assault weapon is, you know?

Mm-hmm. A, uh, select-fire, uh, uh, self-loading firearm. And none of the guns concerned, uh, with the current gun grab are that. So what they had to do is invent a new term, and again, you know, it, it, it, it, it comes under the, the heading of, you know, things like Saturday Night Specials, assault-style weapons- Mm-hmm

you know. It, it, it's a term... It's a marketing term, basically. A political marketing term. 

[00:37:26] Travis Bader: Sure. And- A 

[00:37:27] Blair Hagen: lot 

[00:37:27] Travis Bader: of this is ... 

[00:37:28] Blair Hagen: and I don't think it's really working because people are looking at this now, and we've seen this, uh, even in, uh, national media, mainstream media, going, "Well, these aren't military firearms."

They said they were gonna send them to Ukraine. 

[00:37:40] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:37:40] Blair Hagen: And Ukraine refused. 

[00:37:42] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:37:43] Blair Hagen: So... 

[00:37:44] Travis Bader: Well, if they have political marketing terms- Yep ... what can the gun community have in its back pocket as its own political marketing terms? Like, if that's a game that's being played, it seems, "Okay, they're gonna go sing off-key, say things- Yeah

that aren't true, but I'm gonna tell the truth and I got the facts to [00:38:00] back me up. Oh, I'm not getting much traction here." Well... 

[00:38:02] Blair Hagen: Yeah, no, uh, we're getting plenty of traction. I mean, I compare it to the situation today compared to 30 years ago. 

[00:38:09] Travis Bader: Okay. 

[00:38:09] Blair Hagen: And you gotta recognize the strides we've made. Okay? I mean, I remember...

I mean, you know, not excusing what's going on right now, but I remember where there, where there were no alternatives. There was no political a- alternatives. But it was that long, hard fight, uh, that political capital that was, uh, built and earned, and we have a situation today politically in Canada where, uh, we're, we're fairly well-placed, I mean, on- once we elect a new government.

[00:38:37] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. So what are the most common questions that are coming into the NFA? 

[00:38:44] Blair Hagen: Wow. Okay. Um, yeah. W- lately, uh, obviously the situation with OIC firearms. 

[00:38:51] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:38:51] Blair Hagen: Um, as you know, uh, this whole program was extremely badly communicated. Poorly conceived, [00:39:00] badly communicated. 

[00:39:01] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:39:01] Blair Hagen: Nobody, you know... "Is my gun on the list?" Well, go to the website and go through all those pages of guns that are banned- Right

and, you know, the, the eyes glaze over. People are not firearms experts, you know? I got a call f- I got a call from a guy saying, uh, "You know, I think my gun, uh, is affected by order and counsel. It's a variant of a variant of a variant. I phoned, uh, the firearms program and, uh, they told me it wasn't." 

[00:39:25] Travis Bader: Mm.

[00:39:25] Blair Hagen: "Because it's not on the list." And I'm going, "Uh, that, that doesn't sound right. What kind of gun do you have?" "Well, I've got this, this, and this." "Okay. So, uh, look up the FRT." Uh, and it's like, nope, your gun is definitely, uh, on the list. 

[00:39:41] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:39:42] Blair Hagen: Okay? So people are getting, uh, uh, confusing messages when they contact firearm center.

Uh, they're getting wrong answers, and it, it, it really undermines, uh, uh, faith in the entire process. Mm-hmm. Maybe that's a good thing. I mean, if they're that incompetent. But, I mean, again, if you call National [00:40:00] Firearms Association, you're gonna get, uh, the straight goods. 

[00:40:03] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:40:04] Blair Hagen: Because that's we're in... what we're in the business of.

I... Firearms laws are extremely confusing. 

[00:40:09] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:40:10] Blair Hagen: I think, I think deliberately. But, uh, you know, we, we deal with this every day. Uh, we have to advise people on what they're legally obligated to do, what they're not obligated to do, courses of action going forward, and things like compliance and that sort of thing.

And we're still dealing with, uh, uh, the fallout from legislation of, you know, 10, 15, 20, 30 years ago, okay? Mm-hmm. Because that hasn't been decided yet. So I still, I still run into guns that, uh, you know, were, were prohibited, uh, you know, in the '90s, and it's like Uh, e- especially with things like estates. And as you know, estates are extremely complicated.

[00:40:49] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[00:40:49] Blair Hagen: Uh, especially now because of the, uh, freeze on handgun transfers. I mean, and, uh, again, that's deliberate because, uh, most people, you know, uh, if, if, if they don't understand the law, what's the first thing they do? The, uh, [00:41:00] the widow, you know- Mm-hmm. 

[00:41:01] Travis Bader: She gets rid of them. 

[00:41:02] Blair Hagen: Yeah. "Hello, police?" Right. "Come pick this up."

And that's what they count on. But there are a lot of very extensive firearms collections in Canada that are completely devalued now. And again, this is a property rights issue. How dare they? How dare they do that to people's property, especially when it becomes part of their res- their estate, and they should realize the full amount.

Well, you can still export them to the United States. Well, guess what? Even if you can- 

[00:41:26] Travis Bader: Not all ... 

[00:41:27] Blair Hagen: not all, but even if you can, by the time you get them there- Yeah ... with the fees involved- 

[00:41:32] Travis Bader: You're getting pennies on the dollar ... 

[00:41:33] Blair Hagen: you're getting pennies on the dollar because, hey, Canadian firearms are, you know, hey, they're unwanted.

They're unneeded in the- Sure ... US. They got plenty of guns. They, 

[00:41:40] Travis Bader: they got enough themselves. 

[00:41:42] Blair Hagen: E- exactly. A- and so if you, you export the, uh, the collection down there, you're not really, uh, you're, you're not really realizing the full value. And I think- And 

[00:41:50] Travis Bader: they've got some strict rules about what can be, uh, exported, well, not exported from Canada, but imported into the States.

They have some strict rules on- 

[00:41:57] Blair Hagen: Very much so ... 

[00:41:57] Travis Bader: and drop tests that need to be met, [00:42:00] which some guns that we have in Canada that were legal for us to have that they couldn't have there or, you know, certain date f- dates that they were made or whatever. 

[00:42:07] Blair Hagen: E- exactly, and it's like, okay, this gun can go to the United States, but eh, sorry, it can't go to California.

[00:42:14] Travis Bader: Yeah, it's not a pan- ... it's not a panacea. It's not, "Oh, just ship to the States," like everyone thinks. They got lots of guns. Well, every state's different, too. 

[00:42:20] Blair Hagen: E- e- e- exactly, and that can really affect it. And, uh, a- a- again, i- i- it's an assault on pr- on, on property. Uh, they don't care because frankly, this government doesn't care about, uh, property rights, uh, at all.

[00:42:31] Travis Bader: What, what were the questions you'd get prior to, let's say, the handgun freeze and the OIC- Prohibitions. What were the most common questions you'd get? I, 

[00:42:39] Blair Hagen: I, I think in National Farms Association, estates, number one. Estates, 

[00:42:43] Travis Bader: yeah. 

[00:42:43] Blair Hagen: I, I mean, um, the type of information or instruction that they get from CFE, uh, CFP is often very confusing.

[00:42:50] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[00:42:51] Blair Hagen: Um, and it's, and it's, it's not helpful. I mean, they're not there to help you. Yeah. I mean, uh, uh, ideally they would like you just to call the police and turn the gun in, right? 

[00:42:58] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:42:59] Blair Hagen: [00:43:00] Um, so estate law with firearms, uh, uh, educating, uh, executors and power of attorney- Mm-hmm ... uh, very much so about the process of what they have to do, 'cause it, again, it's not easy, 'cause there's all kinds of, uh, authori- authorizations and vetting necessary.

Mm-hmm. Um- 

[00:43:16] Travis Bader: But you guys have put together, uh, a, a guide for people to be able to do that. 

[00:43:20] Blair Hagen: That, that's right. We do have a guide. It's a plain language guide. It's a step-by-step plain language guide for executors and power of attorney. You find yourself in that situation, contact us, we'll send you. 

[00:43:30] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:43:30] Blair Hagen: Uh, and, uh, i- i- at least you'll be, uh, uh, uh, better armed going forward in the process of dealing with the firearms program.

Uh, things about, about firearms classifications, uh, and I, I was speaking earlier about, uh, guns that were restricted and prohibited under previous legislation. Guess what? They're all still out there. 

[00:43:49] Travis Bader: Yeah, I know. I know. 

[00:43:51] Blair Hagen: And every once in a while, they, they pop up, and it, it's like, uh, and especially working i- in the firearms industry, right?

Mm-hmm. Uh, i- in a, in, in a [00:44:00] licensed firearms business, uh, especially in a major city like Vancouver, um, you know, you get people coming in, "Yeah, Dad died, and he had this, this, and this," you know? Mm-hmm. "And can you tell me, you know, wh- i- i- if it, if it's legal or not?" And, uh, okay, that's, that's okay. That's regular, and it's like, oh, look at this little gem.

And you have to ask, "Okay, uh, do you have the registration for this?" 

[00:44:24] Travis Bader: Mm. "

[00:44:25] Blair Hagen: I don't think it was ever registered." 

[00:44:26] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[00:44:27] Blair Hagen: And, "Well, what can I do with this?" And I'm going, "What? Well, b- first of all, you're committing an offense right now by being pos- in possession of this." 

[00:44:33] Travis Bader: Right, and the criminal consequences for these things are, are severe.

[00:44:37] Blair Hagen: Ex- exactly, right? All I did was try to deal with my dad's estate. Mm-hmm. If he didn't register it, that was on him. Right. Why are you doing this to me? 

[00:44:44] Travis Bader: Right. 

[00:44:45] Blair Hagen: Okay? So they, they go back into the woodwork. 

[00:44:48] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:44:48] Blair Hagen: So, uh, the majority of the firearms that, uh, in the early 1990s that were, first of all, demanded to, for registration were not registered.

[00:44:56] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:44:56] Blair Hagen: Okay? They never came in, and there was a very narrow window there where you could do [00:45:00] that and potentially become grandfathered, right? Mm-hmm. Uh, PCs introduced that. Uh, very shortly afterwards the Liberals were elected, and eh, that's it. Right. We're not ... If you didn't register it by this date, you can't do it now.

So all of, all of those guns are out there, and they're, they're in the woodwork, they're in attics, they're in ba- in basements, they're under beds- Mm-hmm ... that sort of thing, and there's no pathway to legality for them- 

[00:45:22] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:45:22] Blair Hagen: which is a big problem. 

[00:45:25] Travis Bader: Yeah, it is. Uh, so 25, 32 caliber handgun, short-barreled, you know, 105 millimeter or less, right?

Um, 104 millimeter, 105 millimeter. Um- 

[00:45:36] Blair Hagen: Yeah ... 

[00:45:38] Travis Bader: they're prohibited. Can't have them. But they say, "Okay, some of you guys, you got them, you own them, you keep them, 'cause I know you're gonna squawk. We won't take them from you. We'll grandfather you." 

[00:45:47] Blair Hagen: If, if you re-register it. 

[00:45:49] Travis Bader: Right. Oh, yeah. 

[00:45:50] Blair Hagen: Uh, that was a big problem too, because a lot of people didn't get that memo.

It was like, "I already got a registration. Why do I have to re-register it?" 

[00:45:56] Travis Bader: You know why they did that? 

[00:45:59] Blair Hagen: Tell me. [00:46:00] 

[00:46:00] Travis Bader: Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna guess here. I'm gonna guess they asked for a re-registration, 'cause they didn't know, and their systems weren't up to date, and they lost registrations, right? 

[00:46:08] Blair Hagen: Well, uh, uh, a- a- absolutely.

I mean, it, it 

[00:46:10] Travis Bader: was- S- same with the 2020 re-registration that happened. Remember that? 

[00:46:13] Blair Hagen: Yeah, yeah. You know, it, it was like, um, uh, they knew. I mean, they, they collect this data for years. They were doing it for decades, and it would just go into a file cabinet. And, uh, and it, it, it w- it was never used for any public safety purpose.

Mm-hmm. "Hey, we got a reg- uh, a, a, a record of a registration for this handgun, and we, we solved the crime because of that." It didn't happen, okay? It just went into a file, and, uh, people forgot about it. But, uh- 

[00:46:38] Travis Bader: Well, th- those guns were cheap, by and large. A lot of them were cheap. Saturday night specials, we'll give that term to them, and people'd go out, and they'd spend a little bit of money.

They'd get themselves a gun- Yeah ... and they were registered. And so what way- I actually, uh- ... can we wipe off the majority of the registered firearms? 

[00:46:54] Blair Hagen: I actually spoke to one of the RCMP techs who was involved in that process. 

[00:46:58] Travis Bader: Okay. 

[00:46:59] Blair Hagen: [00:47:00] And, uh, I said, "Why did they do it this way?" And he said, "Hey, you know, basically, they wanted to ban half of the handguns in Canada."

[00:47:06] Travis Bader: That's it. Okay. And the easiest way to do it was that. 

[00:47:08] Blair Hagen: Okay, how can we do this? Orders come down from Ottawa. Ban, uh, prohibited, uh, c- uh, half of the handguns in Canada. What criteria can we use? Okay, uh, first of all, we can do it by caliber. 

[00:47:22] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[00:47:22] Blair Hagen: 25, 32 caliber, these are all, the- these are Saturday night special calibers.

They're not useful for target shooting. Um- 

[00:47:30] Travis Bader: Except if you're in the Olympics, right? 

[00:47:31] Blair Hagen: Well, ex- that's what, we'll make an exception. Okay. One cancels the other. But I mean, um, yeah, so okay, 25, 32 calibers. Well, that's only a quarter of the handguns in Canada. It's not enough. Well, I guess we could do it by barrel length.

Okay. Uh, if, uh, the barrel's, uh, four, four inches or under, then we can prohibit them that way, too. But there's a lot of target pistols, uh, and collector's p- pieces that, uh, have that [00:48:00] criteria, right? 

[00:48:00] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:48:00] Blair Hagen: They say, "Well, too bad. They can keep them, but, uh, nobody else can have them." 

[00:48:04] Travis Bader: Right. 

[00:48:05] Blair Hagen: So it was literally, uh, a, a shopping list.

Come up with a way we can do this. Come up with criteria, uh, based on ignorance and, and, and falsehoods. Cana- people don't understand firearms. They're not gonna care. 

[00:48:18] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[00:48:18] Blair Hagen: And plus, we've got a majority government, and we can pass any legislation we want. 

[00:48:24] Travis Bader: So there was a clause, by virtue of my birthdate, I couldn't get- Yeah

a short-barrel 25 or 32 caliber handgun. However, I could inherit one. And back in the day, they said- 12, seven. Right. They said, "Well, you know, the person has to die." Well, it doesn't say anywhere the person has to die for you to inherit it, so did a test case. Sure enough, inherited a little Walther PPK. Uh, number of years go by, and I've got this little 12, seven inherited on, on the back, and- My next license comes in, and I got [00:49:00] full short barrel .25 through .32 caliber.

I 

[00:49:02] Blair Hagen: remember that. 

[00:49:03] Travis Bader: Right. So I, I'm like, okay, and this is during the process when I'm in an eight-year battle with- ... a rogue firearms officer and a police officer who ended up getting criminally charged and convicted- 

[00:49:14] Blair Hagen: Yeah ... 

[00:49:14] Travis Bader: um, doing shady, shady crap, which is why I got that apology letter and an- Right

undisclosed sum and all the rest. This happened during that time. I'm like, "They're trying to trap me. They're trying to..." So I documented everything, and I'm calling- Sure ... them up, and I'm recording the calls, and I'm emailing them. It's, "Mr. Bader, we are the RCMP firearms program. We do not make mistakes." It was the exact quote.

I'm like, "Okay. So I can go and purchase..." "Yes, you can." So I went, and I bought, and sold- Yeah ... and purchased, and I mean, "We do not make mistakes." I brought it to your attention. I showed you the process. You chastised me. Okay, fair enough. Like, I, I didn't want to be the one coming out and saying, like, uh, uh, alarming the bell, and, "Oh, you [00:50:00] did something wrong.

Quick, fix it." But- 

[00:50:01] Blair Hagen: When it, when, when it comes to the Firearms Act, that's the right thing to do. 

[00:50:04] Travis Bader: Well, what I did is I alarmed it in a certain way for myself individually- Yeah ... in, in a way. Fair enough. "We don't make mistakes." Okay, here we go. Yeah. So bought and sold, and then they're like, number of years went by- Yeah

until they finally said, "Oh, yeah, it was a computer glitch, and, uh, it was you and, like, I don't know, 86 other people in Canada," or- Yeah ... what, it was a small number. 

[00:50:24] Blair Hagen: They started revoking registrations 

[00:50:27] Travis Bader: and telling people to get- Four-year-old be a criminal. 

[00:50:27] Blair Hagen: Yeah, exactly. 

[00:50:28] Travis Bader: Hold on a second. 

[00:50:28] Blair Hagen: You authorized this.

[00:50:30] Travis Bader: That's it. Th- why did you do that? I'm like, "Well, hold on a second. Paper trail here." 

[00:50:34] Blair Hagen: Exactly. You authorized it. That's why I did it. 

[00:50:37] Travis Bader: Right. "

[00:50:37] Blair Hagen: Oh, um, that shouldn't have happened." 

[00:50:40] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:50:40] Blair Hagen: You know? 

[00:50:41] Travis Bader: Yeah, you should've known better, and I've had that one used too before. 

[00:50:44] Blair Hagen: And it, it's funny. It always happens that way, and it, you know, during the, uh, reclassification of rimfire rifle magazines.

[00:50:50] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[00:50:51] Blair Hagen: And, uh, we had s- started hear rumors they're going, going to do this, and of course Polly, and, uh, was agitating for it. Hmm. It's like they, they, you know, [00:51:00] they, they have these, these t- these, these big clips and, you know, because, and they're exempted because they're t- uh, .22 or something. We need to ban these things.

Hmm. So the order comes down from Ottawa. RCMP find a way to prohibit these, these things, okay? And, uh, of course the, uh, reason they used was, well, there are handgun versions of these, these, uh, rimfire rifles, so therefore we will call them handgun magazines and- 

[00:51:24] Travis Bader: You're, you're talking about the Ruger 10/22 magazines.

And the 

[00:51:27] Blair Hagen: Mossberg 715. 

[00:51:28] Travis Bader: And the 715, right. 

[00:51:29] Blair Hagen: That's right. 

[00:51:30] Travis Bader: We'll talk about the 7 to 15 after this, but go on. 

[00:51:32] Blair Hagen: Okay. So, uh, find a way to do it. Okay, well, uh, both of these firearms have a handgun version that is available in Canada, so therefore, uh, they have to be restricted to the 10-shot limit. 

[00:51:44] Travis Bader: Right. 

[00:51:46] Blair Hagen: And of course, the way they did it was very, very haphazard for the number of magazines, and they're still out there.

Um- 

[00:51:52] Travis Bader: Now, do they do that through law or through policy? 

[00:51:54] Blair Hagen: Uh, uh- 

[00:51:56] Travis Bader: Not legislation, 

[00:51:58] Blair Hagen: not regulation. RCMP has, has a policy- Memo ... of, of, [00:52:00] of, uh, proper classification. Well, it was, it was not, it was, uh, not, uh, classified properly in the beginning. We've reviewed it, now we're going to, uh, classify it properly. Okay? So it, it, it's not a regulation, it's just a, uh, uh, it, it, it's just a, a review of policy.

[00:52:16] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:52:16] Blair Hagen: Okay? So anyways, uh, and we started to get rumors about this, right? Mm-hmm. And, uh, nobody knew what was going on. You couldn't get any answers from CFP, and then, uh, that memo leaked- 

[00:52:28] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:52:29] Blair Hagen: from, uh, I think it was E Division RCMP saying, "Okay, this is happening, and this is how you should treat them if, if, if you find, find yourself in, uh, involved in an investigation."

And that, you know, in the age of the internet, you know, boom, it's out there, and everybody's going, you know, "My God." And, uh, anyways, but it creates all kinds of problems. 

[00:52:49] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:52:50] Blair Hagen: Immediately, uh, at Lever Arms, we start getting calls from people. "It looks like RCMP is gonna do this. Can you modify my m- my magazines for me?"

[00:52:57] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:52:57] Blair Hagen: All right? And we're going- [00:53:00] We're not sure that we can. 

[00:53:02] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:53:02] Blair Hagen: Okay? Because you have to be authorized to do that. So anyways, uh, shortly after that, uh, you know, we had an inspection, and, uh, asked one of the firearms officers, "Look, this, this has happened here," showed him the memo, and said, uh, uh, "Can we be authorized to modify magazines for people to the, uh, the legal limit?"

Yeah. And, uh, looked at it and said, uh, "We'll get back to you." '

[00:53:29] Travis Bader: Cause that'd be a prohibited device now. 

[00:53:31] Blair Hagen: Yeah, yeah, exactly, and you have to get, uh, s- anything, anything, uh, with a pro- prohibited firearm or prohibited device, you have to be authorized to do it. You know, you can't just assume that, hey, it's- Sure

you know. Uh, a couple weeks later he, uh, got back to us and said, uh, "Nope, you're not, uh, you're not gonna be authorized to modify prohibited devices." And I'm going, "Well, how, how can people comply?" 

[00:53:53] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:53:55] Blair Hagen: That's your problem. 

[00:53:56] Travis Bader: That's something a lot of people don't realize. Like, let's say deactivating [00:54:00] or even destroying a firearm as an individual- 

[00:54:02] Blair Hagen: Yeah

[00:54:03] Travis Bader: and people listening to this, I'm not a lawyer, Blair's not a lawyer, but as an individual- Yeah ... we'll put that caveat out there, individuals are able to do that lawfully. When you take it to a business, and a business needs to have the special conditions on its business license in order to do that.

Otherwise- Yeah ... you jeopardize the whole business. 

[00:54:20] Blair Hagen: Yeah, e- e- exactly, and, uh, you know, especially with a, uh, registered firearm or previously registered firearm, uh, there's a process of, uh, uh, deregistration that, uh, that, that is involved, and you have to have a verifier on staff. You have to be a verifier in order- Yeah

to do this, gunsmith verifier. So it, it, it, it may sound easy, and especially with the current gun grab, I think a lot of people are going, "Well, I'll just destroy it." Well, you better be very careful about that, or, "I'll just deactivate it myself. I'll put a, I'll put a rod in the barrel." Well, guess what? That may not stand up to spec.

[00:54:51] Travis Bader: That was one of the interesting ones too because they wrote up a, uh, a list of guidelines. 

[00:54:56] Blair Hagen: Yeah. 

[00:54:56] Travis Bader: Nothing in law, but they used the guidelines, and then they started holding these [00:55:00] guidelines, like you have to meet these guidelines- Yeah ... in order for it to be deemed deactivated. And one of them was you had to have a, um- a solid steel rod of equal or harder hardness- Yeah

of the barrel. Well, barrels aren't a hard metal to begin with, and, uh, it's gotta be a blind hole, and it's gotta be welded in. 

[00:55:18] Blair Hagen: Yeah. 

[00:55:18] Travis Bader: And so people would stick a rod down the barrel, and they'd weld it on both ends. Well, that's not a blind hole. That bore is open on both ends, right? Yeah. So, uh, I, I mean, it was pretty goofy.

And actually, right where you're sitting right now, I had the, um, uh, registrar in here, flew in from Ottawa. Yeah. What, what was her name? Um, but we had, we had this discussion, and this is when it used to be an office in here. And of course, it's a firearms business. We've got cameras everywhere, and they record- Sure

audio and video. And so she comes in, and she's like, "I can't 

[00:55:48] Blair Hagen: really talk. I- I'll just kinda write. I'll just give you hand signals." 

[00:55:52] Travis Bader: I'm like, I'm like, uh, of course, my- I'm like, "Can you actually not really talk, or is this 'cause you don't wanna get recorded on here?" But, uh, [00:56:00] she says, um, "Okay, so these guidelines, does it have to meet them?"

"Yes." "What if it exceeds it?" "Well, actually, if it exceeds it, it might still not be deemed deactivated." "But what if it falls below, but it'll never go bang?" "Well, well, maybe it could be then, right?" And we played this game back and forth, and- Yeah ... um, essentially it was over that issue. I had, I had two guns which were identical to each other.

They're, uh, a couple of Berettas- Yeah ... um, 92Fs, w- and they were disabled or made inoperable for the firearm safety course training, the restricted course, in the i- exact identical way. But one was done before, whenever it was, May 2005, and the other one was done after May 2005. And they had a b- bulletin on their website saying, "Anything deemed deactivated prior to this bulletin will stay deactivated- Yeah

unless it can readily be made to fire, and anything afterwards needs to meet our guidelines." Yeah. And so I got these two identical guns, and one was done before, and one was done after. One they called deactivated, and the other one they called disabled, which [00:57:00] required registration. 

[00:57:00] Blair Hagen: Right. Right. 

[00:57:01] Travis Bader: Oh my God.

So- 

[00:57:03] Blair Hagen: Bureaucracy- Right ... wonderful thing, right? And this sort of ties into the, uh, the, the current OIC gun grab thing, and, uh, when they first did this, they didn't really envision, uh, what was going to happen, okay? Mm-hmm. They just thought big flashy gun ban thing, Justin on the news saying, "We are banning so m- the, you know, this many firearms."

Yeah. And of course, they didn't think it through, so they just introduced the OICs. Okay, uh, the owners are, uh, the owners are authorized to be in possession until they're given instructions on what to do, uh, turn them in- Yeah ... whatever. And, uh, but there's all kinds of day-to-day things that affect people with firearms, right?

So immediately, the problems start. You know, oh, geez, I got this OIC firearm. And there are two categories of, uh, Order in Council firearms, uh, previously registered OIC firearms- Yeah ... things like AR-15s and short-barrel rifles, and previously unregistered- Mm-hmm ... OIC firearms, which is everything else, okay? So anyways, [00:58:00] um, they do this, and, uh, of course people are...

And we would get these calls at NFA going, um, "I have a, I have an OIC firearm. I'm moving. How do I move with this firearm?" Well, you gotta have authorization to do this. Mm. Right? So contact CFO. You go, "I'm moving on this date, I'm moving with these handguns a- and an OIC firearm." 

[00:58:21] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:58:22] Blair Hagen: Uh, uh, "Can I do this? Is it lawful for me to do this?"

And they d- like, they couldn't come up with an answer. 

[00:58:28] Travis Bader: No. You know- ... just between you and me, just go ahead and do it. The, it, it, it is so, the things that people are being told by the RCMP. Yeah, 

[00:58:36] Blair Hagen: verbally, 

[00:58:36] Travis Bader: right? Verbally, yeah. "Oh, you know, we don't really have it, but if you go do it, I can't see there being a problem."

What? A- a- and you gotta know that there's voiceover IP phones, and, and everyone's using these things. And, like, everything's gets 

[00:58:49] Blair Hagen: tracked and recorded nowadays. Well, more importantly, if you just go ahead and do it, and all of a sudden you have a problem, and you're s- you're standing in front of a police officer going, "You have to have an authorization to do this," or CRN.

But the kind 

[00:58:57] Travis Bader: person on the phone said- 

[00:58:58] Blair Hagen: Yeah, but- ... "They're so nice." ... [00:59:00] Cheryl at, uh, Cheryl at the f- at, at the firearms office told me I could do it. Mm-hmm. Well, you know, the, that's not lawful. 

[00:59:05] Travis Bader: That's right. 

[00:59:06] Blair Hagen: So, and, you know, people, it didn't know what to do, and, and especially things like you couldn't be in possession of the firearm anymore.

I'm, I'm moving out of the country. I've got this gun. What do I do? Can't tell you. 

[00:59:17] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:59:17] Blair Hagen: You know? I'd love to buy it from you, but I can't do that legally. So, um, what was the only alternative? Hello, police. 

[00:59:24] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:59:24] Blair Hagen: Uh, which, you know, I, I, I figure that, uh, that was probably deliberate. But anyways, it was a big problem, and it festered for two years, two years before CFOs finally had enough and, and, and went to the CFP and said, "Look, people are...

The, th- this is routine stuff." Yeah. "P- people move every day." That's right. "People change." You know, sometimes they can't store the gun at the house. They have to store it somewhere else. Sure. And that has to be authorized, and it can't be right now. We don't have a policy. F- so finally, they, uh, came up with a policy two years after the fact, basically saying, "Yes, we [01:00:00] will authorize you.

You will have written authorization to, uh, uh, either, uh, uh, move- Mm ... with, uh, your, your OIC firearm or, uh, or store it at a, at another, uh, location, alternative storage, temporary storage." Sure. "And you can store them with another similarly licensed, uh, firearms license holder or at a business that is authorized for storage."

[01:00:23] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:00:24] Blair Hagen: So that solved that. It solved part of it, but the fact of the matter, that only applies to previously registered OIC firearms. Mm-hmm. There is no authorization available for previously unregistered OIC firearms. 

[01:00:37] Travis Bader: Well, I wonder, I wonder what the bones of that authorization is, if it's just another, "Oh, yeah, we'll do it" policy thing, because if you're transporting a firearm, you have to be licensed for that class of firearm as well, right?

So it's, uh, either under a business license or your own personal license. 

[01:00:55] Blair Hagen: Yeah, yeah. 

[01:00:57] Travis Bader: It's not, are you gonna license all those people as prohibited [01:01:00] firearms owners now? 

[01:01:01] Blair Hagen: Well, that takes legislation. 

[01:01:02] Travis Bader: Right. Like, that's what I mean. I'm, I'm wondering, speculating out loud, that the authorization that's being provided has no bearing in law to begin with 

[01:01:11] Blair Hagen: I'd agree with that

[01:01:12] Travis Bader: that, that's my speculation. Now, you brought up variant before, which is kind of an interesting one- Yeah ... because I don't think the courts were able to, uh, uh, determine what the word variant actually meant. I know that was part of the, um, um, uh, the last OIC battle. I was, uh, cross-examined on my report that I put forward, and, uh- Yeah

uh, we talked about the, uh, the Mossberg Plinkster in 715T, and we talked about the word variant, and the justices and judges there relied on my ev- evidence and information in, in their opinion that came out, 'cause there's nothing out there that contradicted it. Yeah. But I, I don't think anything ever came down to actually pinpoint what a variant is.

No. 

[01:01:55] Blair Hagen: No, I mean, uh, uh, no legal definition- No ... definitely. It's just a basic [01:02:00] understanding that they operate, uh, that they operate off of. 

[01:02:03] Travis Bader: Right. 

[01:02:03] Blair Hagen: And, uh, th- how do you figure it out? It's gotta go to court, you know? Court decision. 

[01:02:10] Travis Bader: And then they say, "Well, I mean, look at this FRT, firearms reference table." "This thing says it's illegal."

Yeah. And they say, "Well, hold on, how do you make those FRTs? 'Cause this other one- Yeah ... you said here, it said it wasn't." "Oh, don't look at that one that said it wasn't." 

[01:02:22] Blair Hagen: Yeah. "

[01:02:22] Travis Bader: And really, these FRTs have no bearing in law. It's just our opinion." 

[01:02:25] Blair Hagen: That's right, yeah. "

[01:02:26] Travis Bader: Well, hold on. Th- this is your testimony. This is what you're gonna say, that they have no bearing in law?"

"Yeah, yeah, that's right." "Okay. Well then, why are we relying them as if they have some sort of bearing in law here?" 

[01:02:36] Blair Hagen: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the... well, politics. That's basically what it is. 

[01:02:40] Travis Bader: So we got two different guns, basically the same gun. The- Yep ... the Plinkster and the 715T. I think the Ts are tactical or something.

Yeah. Now, one has a clamshell stock that goes around it- Yeah ... that makes it look black and ugly-looking. 

[01:02:55] Blair Hagen: Yeah. 

[01:02:55] Travis Bader: The other one doesn't, and it's, you know, a friendly little Plinkster. Yep. One's [01:03:00] non-restricted. You can own it. The other one, completely prohibited. The second you put that scary stock around it, oop- 

[01:03:04] Blair Hagen: Yeah

[01:03:05] Travis Bader: prohibited. 

[01:03:06] Blair Hagen: Yeah, exactly. Why? Because it looks like an AK-47. And I- Looks like ... 

[01:03:09] Travis Bader: and I think that, so we talk about variant, and we talk about the aesthetics of firearms. 

[01:03:15] Blair Hagen: Yeah. 

[01:03:16] Travis Bader: I think that's the crux of it. Honestly, I think the crux of all of this is, "That looks scary- 

[01:03:22] Blair Hagen: Yep ... 

[01:03:23] Travis Bader: let's use that as an example for what we're getting rid of."

[01:03:26] Blair Hagen: Yeah, uh, largely, and I think it, a lot of this gets caught up in the ideology of the, uh, civil disarmament lobby in Canada too. All guns are bad, uh, but some guns are, are worse than others. Why? Yeah. Well, they look this way, and they encourage a certain mentality, and we don't like the type of people who would own that type of gun, and Americans own those types of guns, and we don't want Canadians to own those types of guns.

Yeah. So it has nothing to do with public safety. There's, there's no demonstrable reason for this. Um, you know, for example, AR-15 rifles, uh, are very rarely, if ever, used in offenses. 

[01:03:59] Travis Bader: Sure. [01:04:00] 

[01:04:00] Blair Hagen: Okay? But they're the first ones targeted. Why? Because of the politics of the situation. 

[01:04:04] Travis Bader: Yeah, I th- I think, I think you nailed it there.

I think essentially from both sides, firearms owners and governments that would want to ban them, there's a perception of competency- Hmm ... around an aesthetic of a firearm. Yeah. And gun people will be like, "Look at this. I got this gun that looks really Gucci, and I'm gonna be more competent because of the aesthetic."

And the people who'd want to ban them would say, "Oh, we can't have those kind of guns in their hands- Yeah ... because, like, what, what if they went and did something and revolted?" Whatever, right? Sure. I, I think that's, I think that's what the OIC is in a nutshell, and I'd, I'd encourage the audience to, uh, come up with a rebuttal or, uh, maybe, maybe something that, uh, is a bit deeper.

But I think it, it basically circles around perception of competency- 

[01:04:47] Blair Hagen: Yeah ... 

[01:04:47] Travis Bader: and aesthetic associated. 

[01:04:49] Blair Hagen: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, you know, it's, it, it's just unfortunate that, uh, it get, it get, gets- caught up in a political debate. I mean, um, i- if firearms, and [01:05:00] I, I, I don't know going forward into the future. I, you know, I used to believe that there was a time that we, we could have, uh, w- we could come up with firearms, we could write firearms legislation that was based in reality, and- Yeah

widely recognized and, uh, a- as being so, and widely s- accepted as such. But due to the politicization of this, which goes right into the, you know, or right in- i- into the, you know, the labs of RCP forensics, I, I, I, I don't even know anymore. Because the process is, is, is not transparent. Okay? It's, it's not founded on any sort of, uh, principle.

And you look at, this stuff winds up in courts- Yeah ... and judges can't even figure it out. Why was this gun banned? "Well, we deemed it, uh, unsuitable for, uh, sporting purposes." Based on what? 

[01:05:44] Travis Bader: That's an interesting one. Okay. So, I, that's a false argument right there. 

[01:05:48] Blair Hagen: Yeah. 

[01:05:49] Travis Bader: They- they talk about sporting purposes, and by sporting purposes, hunters would say, "Well, this isn't sporting," despite legislation calling it sporting at the provincial level.

Yeah. We'll put all the semantics aside there, but they [01:06:00] say, "Is this rifle suitable for hunting?" Right? Yeah. If it, if it's not suitable for hunting, what do you need this thing for? Hm. And, and I think that whole thing is a very false framing. 

[01:06:11] Blair Hagen: A- a- absolutely, especially, uh, and that was the original argument for the, uh, uh, restricting of AR-15 rifles.

I mean- That this, this, this rifle is not suitable for hunting. Um, uh, uh, the, the magazine does not conform to hunting, hunting regulations. The round is not suitable for hunting, you know, the 556 round, you can't hunt with that. Well, you can, number one. No, no, no, it just blows the animal apart. A lot of this was brought, you know, the, the falsehoods from the Vietnam War.

[01:06:38] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[01:06:38] Blair Hagen: You know, about the- It goes 

[01:06:39] Travis Bader: so fast. I- 

[01:06:40] Blair Hagen: it's, yeah, it just blows the a- you know, I've, you know, I've heard this, and p- people based, uh, based the restriction on their bigotries. Um, but there was no basis for it, it was just po- politics. 

[01:06:50] Travis Bader: Yeah, but it sounds reasonable when you person says, "Well- 

[01:06:54] Blair Hagen: Yeah ... 

[01:06:54] Travis Bader: you can't use this thing for hunting.

Like, why would you use this for hunting?" But for anyone to, who isn't [01:07:00] in the firearms realm- 

[01:07:01] Blair Hagen: Right ... 

[01:07:01] Travis Bader: like, anything can be used for hunting. Like, a 22 is not suitable for hunting moose. It could, it could, like, because I've heard stories, I've talked to people who've used a 22 on moose and, but- Uh, it's perfectly suitable for grouse- Sure

right? 416 Rigby, if you're going out after big game, suitable. Use that on a rabbit, you're no good. So what is suitability? It's got nothing to do with the aesthetic. It's got everything to do with what it's being used for, and it'd be like saying- 

[01:07:27] Blair Hagen: Exactly ... "

[01:07:28] Travis Bader: You tell me what knife isn't suitable for cooking.

You tell me what car isn't suitable for commuting." Like, it might be ridiculous to drive around in, uh, Lamborghini, some race car to, to commute around- Yeah ... but doesn't mean it's not suitable for it. It'll take you from point A to point B just fine. 

[01:07:44] Blair Hagen: Well, exactly, and getting back to AR-15 rifles, we don't like this rifle.

We don't like the rounded fires. It's not suitable for hunting. Well, you can get one in any caliber you want these days. 

[01:07:55] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[01:07:55] Blair Hagen: Okay? 308. 

[01:07:57] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[01:07:57] Blair Hagen: You know, uh, the larger [01:08:00] calibers, uh, they make, they make them in hunting calibers, and they are used for hunting all over the world. Sure do. Why not Canada? What is differ- what is different about the animals here?

Well, it all gets caught up in the politics and attitudes that, uh, are very, very, uh, unfortunate because it af- it affects people's rights and property. 

[01:08:17] Travis Bader: Well, so much of it surrounds around the aesthetic and the gun- Mm-hmm ... and I think both sides get stuck into this. 

[01:08:23] Blair Hagen: Yep. 

[01:08:23] Travis Bader: The anti-gun people, they look at the gun as evil, and the pro-gun crowd, they'll look at the gun as for what it is, as a tool that you can use- Yeah

that could be used for eagle- evil in the same way that- Sure ... a vehicle could be used for evil. 

[01:08:36] Blair Hagen: Any number of things. 

[01:08:37] Travis Bader: Sure. Um, but I also find that, uh, when you start trying to defend against these false, um- arguments. Yeah. Like, i- is that a suitable gun for hunting? Well, that's not the argument to have.

That's not the, the litmus test, because we don't have something here that says- Mm ... this is and this isn't, just in the same way that there's no knife that's not suitable for cooking. [01:09:00] Yeah. Depends on what you're cooking. Right. It depends on what you have, and if that's the only knife you have, it's probably better than using a spoon, right?

[01:09:06] Blair Hagen: Yeah, yeah, exactly. But, uh, uh, a lot of the politics, uh, certainly previously have been, uh, couched in that. It's been useful for the civil disarmament lobby to do that, especially when you get into big, uh, uh, media-inspired, media-created controversies over- Right ... this stuff, right? Because, uh, you know, uh, they're marketing a commodity too, and, uh, hey, you know, uh, to them, uh, just like Hollywood, guns are sexy, guns are exciting, guns are, you know, interesting.

Uh, and they're going to use that, uh, uh, any number of ways, uh, not entirely legitimately all the time. 

[01:09:41] Travis Bader: So how does the average NFA member have that conversation with somebody else who says, "I don't know, I don't have any guns. I think... Why not get rid of the guns?" And how do they have that gun conversation without making the gun the crux?

[01:09:56] Blair Hagen: Uh, it depends on the individual. I mean, there's some people out there [01:10:00] who you're just not gonna reach, and that's fine. All right? But i- as long as you can bring them to a point where they respect, uh, your, your rights, your culture, and your property. It's like, "I hate these things. I wish they were gone.

Nobody should have them." Yeah. "But I understand that you are, are law-abiding. You, you, you are licensed. I understand what you had to do to do that, and I understand that this is your property, and that should be respected." Mm. Okay? Number one. "I would never own that. Uh, I don't agree with it, but yes, I, I, I, I do understand that that's your experience."

Number two, education about firearms. A lot of these people who, you know, will parrot, you know, the, uh, government line, the media line on it- You got a, they, they got a little interest going on there Yep Right? It's like this thing is, uh, I, I, I scare- I'm scared by this thing. I am, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm very frightened by its presence, but, you know, I'm also interested.

So, uh, it- you know, take the myth out of it. 

[01:10:51] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[01:10:52] Blair Hagen: You know, guns are tools just like anything else, all right? And once people become familiar with them, they lose their, they lose their fear, um, [01:11:00] they lose their, uh, a lot of the misconceptions they have about it. So th- that's the education part. Sure. Okay? Um, there's a lot of people who got in- involved in, uh, in gun sports and, you know, the culture of guns who were absolutely opposed to at the beginning.

I think, uh, our, one of our, uh, uh, acquaintances, uh, Professor Gary Mauser- Yes ... was one of those people. Yes. Yeah, yeah. He, uh, it w- back, uh, 34 years ago when this controversy got going, he t- you know, he was a professor at Simon Fraser U- University, and he said, "What, what's going on here?" Mm-hmm. "I don't really understand what's going on here, so I'm gonna get involved and I'm gonna educate myself."

You know, he, coming from a v- a, a, a background where he, he d- did not use firearms, and firearms were not part of his family experience, he thought, "Well, you know, I'm take, I'm gonna take an academic interest in this and see what's going on." Yeah. And he did, and eventually he became a gun guy. Yeah. So, uh, you know, there, there's that too.

And I think that's going on now, and I think it has been going on for many years. I, I remember a, a time when [01:12:00] firearms ownership was kind of hidden away because, you know, a lot of people thought that if we just hide this away, if we're not overt about it, they'll forget about us and leave us alone. 

[01:12:08] Travis Bader: Mm.

[01:12:09] Blair Hagen: Okay? 

[01:12:09] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[01:12:10] Blair Hagen: And no, that does not work. 

[01:12:11] Travis Bader: Yeah, that was, that was a common mentality that I saw time and time again. Yeah. "Well, it's not really affecting me, and I'll just be quiet." Yeah. "It'll go by." And y- all around the world, that's changing. All around the- I, I think so, yeah ... world people are starting to speak up and say, "Well, hold on a second.

Let's, let's base some laws in reality here." 

[01:12:28] Blair Hagen: Well, especially these days. I mean, it's gotten to be a v- a very much more dangerous, uh, violent world. 

[01:12:33] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:12:34] Blair Hagen: Even our world here in C- in, in Canada. 

[01:12:36] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[01:12:36] Blair Hagen: I mean, if you look at what's going on in, in- It's 

[01:12:38] Travis Bader: got nothing to do with the guns. 

[01:12:39] Blair Hagen: No. 

[01:12:40] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[01:12:40] Blair Hagen: And guess what? I mean, you can ban everything you want.

The guns are still gonna be there. 

[01:12:43] Travis Bader: That's right. They should make mur- murder illegal. Like, really, that would make sense. If they made murder illegal, that would stop it. 

[01:12:49] Blair Hagen: Well, I heard they did that, but- Ugh ... it's not working, so I think we need- ... to make it double illegal. 

[01:12:54] Travis Bader: Double illegal, yes. 

[01:12:55] Blair Hagen: Okay? I'm... You know, um, y- [01:13:00] yeah, and I, I think attitudes in, uh, on firearms in Canada have changed.

They've changed over the last, uh, couple, few decades. I think a lot of people in Canada are going, "Look, this- we, we, we know w- where these guns are coming from, the guns that are being used in crime. We know why they're being used in crime. Um, and we want something done about that. We do not want- firearms taken off of law-abiding people.

[01:13:22] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. I wanna talk about, 'cause we've talked a lot about the OIC prohibited firearms, let's talk about the handgun freeze- Yeah ... which a lot, a lot of people look at as a handgun ban because essentially that's what they've done. They've gone out and banned the handguns, but, but that's not the terminology or the words they're using.

It's freeze, which implies it can be unfrozen, and I've worked with a good number of people who've bought and sold handguns during this freeze, 'cause there are legal provisions that allow them to do that. Yeah. And before we talk about it, I'll put one q- another plug. If you're listening to this and this is interesting to you- Check the link in the description if you want to be able to [01:14:00] download your guide in order to understand more about an authorization to carry, whether you qualify.

Yeah. 'Cause that also opens up handgun purchasing- Yeah ... and transferring. 

[01:14:10] Blair Hagen: Yeah, no, I've, I've been in, uh, involved in a few of those already. 

[01:14:13] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:14:14] Blair Hagen: Um, s- but it's very limited, and it's very narrow. And, uh, the fact of the matter is there are, there are a lot of handguns in Canada, okay? There are a lot of registered handguns in the, uh, the hands of licensed owners.

Uh, there are a lot of, uh, handgun collectors in Canada- Right ... with very, very extensive collections, uh, that would've, uh, represented hundreds of thousands of dollars, uh, in potential return to, uh, an estate, which is usually the way it, it happened in Canada. Dad died, and, uh, the estate sold the guns and, and, uh, realized the profits from it.

Mm-hmm. But that's not happening now, and it's very, very difficult, uh, for a lot of people. And in a lot of cases, it becomes, uh, you know, the path of least resistance, especially for widows, is, uh, hand them in to [01:15:00] the police, and that always sort of happened in Canada, right? Mm-hmm. 

[01:15:03] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[01:15:03] Blair Hagen: Because I don't know what the law is, this is a problem, and I don't wanna deal with it.

[01:15:07] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[01:15:07] Blair Hagen: Um, some people were a little more informed about it, and new steps could be taken to- Mm-hmm ... uh, transfer the handguns and, uh, and, and, uh, realize profit for it. But, you know, in the case of a, a, a, of a widow, uh, you know, she's, she's shattered. You know, her husband of like 50 years is dead, and, uh, all of a sudden the police are there saying, "Give us the gun."

[01:15:29] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[01:15:29] Blair Hagen: And what is she going to do? Say no? You know, "I am the executor- Right ... of the estate. I am authorized to be in possession, and I will transfer this to another firearms license holder." You know, that's not gonna happen in the majority cases, and people know that. 

[01:15:41] Travis Bader: Yep. 

[01:15:41] Blair Hagen: Um, but as it stands today, uh, yeah, it is possible to, uh, transfer, uh, a handgun.

Uh, licensed firearms businesses are, uh, certainly authorized to, uh, take handguns into their inventories. Mm-hmm. Uh, so if you, uh, feel that, uh, your, your estate especially, um, you can [01:16:00] go that route. Also, uh, Canada's National Firearms Association has a new program, the Save Firearms program. Basically, if you find yourself in a situation, especially if you're an executor or power of attorney, we can assist you, okay?

Uh, uh, NFA is a licensed firearms business now. Uh, we have storage for firearms. We can store firearms. Uh, we can hold registrations for firearms. So if you find yourself in a situation where you can no longer hold, uh, a registration for a handgun or, or, or, or something, even, uh, previous prohibited class firearms, uh, not in most cases OIC firearms, and I'll touch on that in a minute.

Mm-hmm. But previous, uh, prohibited class firearms, uh, things like, uh, automatics, converted automatics- Sure Uh, uh, semi-autos prohibited by OIC- Yeah ... that sort of thing. We can take them into our inventory, and that can prevent them from being destroyed, turned into the police and destroyed. 

[01:16:57] Travis Bader: Is that included with an NFA membership, or is that on top [01:17:00] of?

There's a- Pro- ... probably be storage fee. 

[01:17:02] Blair Hagen: Yeah, there are fees involved- Yeah ... obviously. 

[01:17:04] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[01:17:04] Blair Hagen: But no, a membership is not required. 

[01:17:07] Travis Bader: Huh. You should make membership requirement, because not only that- It's- ... but they'll, uh ... 

[01:17:12] Blair Hagen: I would... You know, y- you would think that we would do that, but I mean, people are in all kinds of situations now, and, uh, especially today, people are really hurting financially.

This is true. Okay? So we judge every case on its own merits. Okay. It's like, i- i- you know, uh, is it within, uh, our interests to take this firearm into our inventory, to store this firearm? And it could be for, you know, for a short period, could be for a long period. 

[01:17:36] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[01:17:36] Blair Hagen: Okay? Uh, there's a lot of people who found themselves in cases where it's like, ah, I, you know, I gotta, I gotta get rid of this gun.

I'll transfer it to NFA. Uh, I'll relicense myself, and maybe a couple years in the future with a change of government- Yeah ... then I c- then I can hold a registration for this thing again. 

[01:17:52] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:17:52] Blair Hagen: So there's, there's that as well. Unfortunately, and it was... I, I, I, I hate this. All of this sort of [01:18:00] came to fruition, and it was bad timing around the time of the OICs.

[01:18:05] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[01:18:05] Blair Hagen: I thought, you know, and we had dealt with this problem for years. Sure. Okay? And r- really, really worked towards getting that, uh, BFL and setting up this program, and all of a sudden, you know, 2020, boom, OIC. And people are going, "What can I do about this?" And, you know, we started advertising and saying, "Hey, this is what we can do- Sure

for you." And they assumed that that included OIC firearms. 

[01:18:28] Travis Bader: Okay. I see where this is go- Yeah. I, 

[01:18:30] Blair Hagen: yeah. 

[01:18:30] Travis Bader: Yeah. I, I thought you were saying, "I hate to say this," 'cause I thought people are looking at you like you're trying to monopolize on the OIC or something, but, uh- 

[01:18:37] Blair Hagen: Yeah, yeah, exactly, but 

[01:18:39] Travis Bader: it- Did it transmit it that way?

[01:18:40] Blair Hagen: No. No. It was bad timing. 

[01:18:42] Travis Bader: Just bad timing. 

[01:18:42] Blair Hagen: It was just bad timing, and, uh, you know, we'd get contacts, you know, "Help me save my guns." And- 

[01:18:47] Travis Bader: Got it ... 

[01:18:48] Blair Hagen: you would have to tell people, "Look, we, we... You can't just send them to NFA, and we're going to shield them from the liberal gun grab," because legally you can't do that, right?

[01:18:59] Travis Bader: Why? [01:19:00] 

[01:19:00] Blair Hagen: Why? 

[01:19:00] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[01:19:02] Blair Hagen: Why? Because if police come for the gun, it, for example, if the, uh, amnesty had ended- 

[01:19:07] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm ... 

[01:19:08] Blair Hagen: and, uh, NFA was in possession of the gun, and there's only one way, there's only one way NFA could be in possession of the gun. Uh, generally speaking, OIC firearms cannot be transferred, they cannot be stored elsewhere except previously, uh, r- restricted, previously registered OIC firearms with authorization of the provincial CFO.

[01:19:26] Travis Bader: Okay, so it's the authorization to transport that's present- preventing the, um, NFA from taking possession from the individual side. Well, 

[01:19:34] Blair Hagen: well, no, uh, we can. We can store previously registered OIC firearms, okay? 

[01:19:39] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[01:19:40] Blair Hagen: We are authorized to do that with authorization of provincial CFO. 

[01:19:43] Travis Bader: Right. 

[01:19:44] Blair Hagen: So if you cannot be in poss- in possession of, say, your AR-15 or your short-barreled rifle, uh, you can seek authorization from your CFO- 

[01:19:52] Travis Bader: Sure

[01:19:53] Blair Hagen: for temporary or alternative storage- 

[01:19:56] Travis Bader: Sure ... 

[01:19:56] Blair Hagen: with National Firearms Association. 

[01:19:57] Travis Bader: Okay. 

[01:19:58] Blair Hagen: But again, [01:20:00] previously unregistered OIC firearms, it's a gray area. There's no authorization available, so what do you do? 

[01:20:07] Travis Bader: Oh, I'm gonna spitball here 'cause I'm a solutions kind of guy. 

[01:20:09] Blair Hagen: Okay. 

[01:20:10] Travis Bader: But what about NFA field agents being listed under the NFA business license and being covered through the business transport, uh, permit?

Maybe a charge for them to go out and physically have to pick 'em up because that's not gonna be mailing back and forth sort of thing. But 

[01:20:23] Blair Hagen: the- Well, well, well, some are, but I mean, uh, due to the logistics and the geography of this country, uh, most of the firearms are shipped. They 

[01:20:31] Travis Bader: do. And 

[01:20:31] Blair Hagen: they have, they, they have to be shipped.

And once the authorization is, is, is approved, uh, the firearm can be shipped to, uh, our facilities, and we will store the firearm. 

[01:20:39] Travis Bader: But you can ship under your own business license. 

[01:20:41] Blair Hagen: Yes. 

[01:20:42] Travis Bader: Okay. And so if a business, an NFA field agent goes and picks it up, now it's under NFA control, under NFA business license.

Yeah, if, 

[01:20:48] Blair Hagen: if, if that individual is, uh, listed on the bus- on the business firearms license. 

[01:20:52] Travis Bader: Right. Now, bro, I'm not a lawyer, I'm just spitballing, but it might- Yeah ... might, might be, might be an extra little thing to be able to help the, uh- 

[01:20:58] Blair Hagen: Yeah. No, I mean, [01:21:00] and, you know, if this is happening in whatever pro- province concerned, great, fine, good.

But I mean- Mm-hmm ... it's a huge country, and people all over this country- Sure ... find themselves in this, in these situations, so in, in those cases, the firearm has to be packed up and shipped. 

[01:21:14] Travis Bader: Okay. 

[01:21:15] Blair Hagen: But, uh, yeah, safe firearms, and a lot of this is still evolving too, right? So, uh, I always encourage people, uh, if you have a problem with a firearm, a registered firearm, uh, that even a firearm you think you may not be in compliance with it- 

[01:21:29] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm

[01:21:30] Blair Hagen: uh, contact us, and w- we'll, uh, we'll give you a straight, real-world answer on where you're standing. We're not gonna couch it in all kinds of this, that. It's not gonna be like talking to the firearms program. 

[01:21:42] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[01:21:43] Blair Hagen: You're, you're talking to somebody who's gonna say, "Look, this is what it is. This is what your options are, and this is what, this is not what your options are."

Right. "And, uh, you have, uh, this way of going forward to, uh, uh, com- uh, to be in compliance or come back into compliance." 

[01:21:59] Travis Bader: So [01:22:00] I spent eight years fighting the federal government- 

[01:22:02] Blair Hagen: Yep ... 

[01:22:03] Travis Bader: and winning. That's eight years of fight, and you gotta dedicate yourself to that. Yeah. Spent eight years fighting a rogue individual doing things he shouldn't have been doing- 

[01:22:11] Blair Hagen: Yeah

[01:22:11] Travis Bader: and winning. Got the apology letters, got the sums, all the rest, but it takes a toll. What toll has this taken on you constantly fighting?

[01:22:27] Blair Hagen: Boy, I, I don't really know how to answer that question. Uh, is there a toll? I guess there is. There, there was certain- certainly a toll on Rick Igerich, wasn't there? And I gotta tell you, that guy, um, he never let up. Uh, once he became, uh, president of NFA, it was go, go, go, go. All right. I mean, he was, he was attending events, he was going to gun shows, he was traveling internationally, uh, uh, representing us.

Uh, NFA is a member of the World Forum on the Future of Sport Shooting Activities, WFSA. And, uh, this is the, uh, international [01:23:00] group that looks at, uh, uh, firearms laws and legislation, what may be coming down the road, especially from the UN. And he would represent us at those meetings. Um, and, uh, it was just the day-to-day stuff that, uh I, I, I started to see it, you know, um, Rick's, Rick's really looking tired.

Rick's starting to really sound frustrated. 

[01:23:24] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[01:23:25] Blair Hagen: And perfectly understandable because we're all in that situation, right? I mean, we- we're into this, I mean, we're, we're six years into these OICs, and my God, it's gotta be, what, h- it's over a decade of, of liberal governments attacking us at every opportunity.

Take a toll? Absolutely does. I mean, it, you know, it takes a, it takes a mental toll, I mean, just dealing with people, average people, you know, regular people, you know, Canadians who should never have been put in a position to have to deal with this stuff. I mean, if the laws were reasonable and sane, you know, and there were straight paths forward, [01:24:00] you know, the, uh, there would be no problem.

But these are just regular Canadians with regular lives, you know, uh, that have been put in what m- in many cases are just, like, insane situations because of, of, of government actions, and th- that's, that's just unforgivable. That, that's, that's the most galling part of this. You know, these are not people trying to skirt around the edges of the law or s- you know, sneakily do stuff.

These are people who are law-abiding, wanna be law-abiding, wanna be in compliance, and are finding themselves in this situation, uh, due to government and bureaucratic edict cannot. 

[01:24:40] Travis Bader: It's hard to talk about yourself, isn't it? 

[01:24:42] Blair Hagen: Oh, boy. 

[01:24:45] Travis Bader: Um, do you see light at the end of the tunnel? 

[01:24:48] Blair Hagen: Oh, absolutely. You know, um, I mean, the biggest problem we have right now is the, uh, the OIC gun grabs, obviously, and they've been chipping away at this, uh, since they got going in, in, in [01:25:00] 2020.

[01:25:00] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[01:25:00] Blair Hagen: And yeah, they have gotten some guns, you know, by hook or by crook. Uh, some people, uh, voluntarily, uh, uh, participated in, uh, the recent confiscation registry that ended March 31st, and not a lot, uh, certainly not, uh, given the per capita numbers of OIC firearms in Canada. But, but again, you know, some people think, get scared, get frustrated, don't see a way out, and decide, "Well, this is, uh, my opportunity to comply and maybe, maybe be compensated for it," and that was not a guarantee.

Yeah. I- A- A lot of people said, "Well, you know, they'll, they'll pay me for it," and they find out, "You're gonna pay me what?" So 

[01:25:38] Travis Bader: 136,000 is what they budgeted for, which doesn't even- It doesn't even come close to touching. And yet the compliance rate is, I think, less than half that of what has been turned forward, and I have a question of how they arise at those numbers, arrive at those numbers.

[01:25:55] Blair Hagen: Okay. 

[01:25:56] Travis Bader: Are those numbers, uh, conflated with business [01:26:00] returns? 'Cause businesses I know, and a lot of businesses- 

[01:26:03] Blair Hagen: Yeah ... 

[01:26:03] Travis Bader: like this is just a stock item, it's an inventory item. I've been sitting on this thing for years now, and they- Yeah ... they- 

[01:26:08] Blair Hagen: And especially today. Right. You know, it's like, uh, every firearms business in Canada is hurting real bad.

[01:26:14] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[01:26:14] Blair Hagen: Okay? And the part- part of the, uh, part of this, uh, initiative was to, uh, drive firearms businesses out of business. This is another way that we can end this in Canada. Uh, if most of the firearms businesses are gone, nobody can buy a gun, and, uh- 

[01:26:29] Travis Bader: Have you had that told to you, or is that your perception?

Oh, 

[01:26:32] Blair Hagen: uh, no, this is my belief 

[01:26:34] Travis Bader: Okay. 

[01:26:34] Blair Hagen: Okay? Um, certainly, I, I'm feeling it, uh, with my business, and, uh, if you look at it logically, that, that can be the only reason. Are the numbers conflated? And yeah, I'll tell you how. Um, a lot of this, a lot of the numbers that the federal government was, uh, is dealing with, was dealing with when they came up with the ideas, uh, uh, of these OICs, were firearms registered in [01:27:00] the old long gun registry.

[01:27:01] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[01:27:03] Blair Hagen: Okay? 

[01:27:03] Travis Bader: The one that isn't worth the paper it's written on. 

[01:27:06] Blair Hagen: Exactly, because officially, that was all the firearms in Canada- Mm-hmm ... uh, uh, prior to 2012. 

[01:27:12] Travis Bader: Right. 

[01:27:12] Blair Hagen: Because they had 99.9 perc- percent cl- compliance, don't you know? Of 

[01:27:16] Travis Bader: course they did. Oh 

[01:27:17] Blair Hagen: my God, what a- It was just a fantastic- 

[01:27:20] Travis Bader: Yeah ... 

[01:27:20] Blair Hagen: um, so yeah, when, so when they s- uh, crunched the numbers, uh, for the number of firearms that they wanted prohibited by OIC, they went back to the old long gun registry and, uh, and took a look at, uh, the numbers of guns, uh, model by model, make by make- Mm-hmm

uh, that actually got registered. Did you know that there are only 4,000 Ruger Mini-14 rifles in Canada? 

[01:27:42] Travis Bader: Oh, yeah, that number totally checks out. 

[01:27:44] Blair Hagen: Well, it just makes sense, doesn't it? I mean, this is a fire- I mean, they've only- I 

[01:27:48] Travis Bader: mean, The A-Team didn't do anything for that gun. I mean, there's no popularity around it.

[01:27:52] Blair Hagen: I mean, they've only been imported in, into Canada, you know, uh, since 1972. Mm-hmm. And, you know, it's not the type of firearm [01:28:00] that, uh, anybody really wanted. So yeah, you know- Well, the, the registry says 4,000, so we can manage that, right? 

[01:28:05] Travis Bader: Yeah. It's a- ... true and accurate number, for sure. 

[01:28:08] Blair Hagen: And extrapolate that on, on the other firearms- Mm

that, uh, were registered, and, and y- you remember that, you know, that there was a lot of non-compliance back then because people- Oh, massive ... yeah, and people knew what, uh, what was gonna happen, and that was basically proven by the actions of this government because y- a lot of people, if you registered, uh, uh, what is now an OIC firearm in the old long gun registry, well, you got a letter saying, "We have information that you held a registration for this firearm, uh, uh, prior to 2012."

Yeah. "If you are still in possession of it, you will be required to do such and such and such." 

[01:28:42] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:28:43] Blair Hagen: They don't know if you're s- still in possession of it or not, but records from the registry. 

[01:28:49] Travis Bader: And everyone said, "Oh, that's just tinfoil hat." "You're just 

[01:28:53] Blair Hagen: paranoid." Registration. Yeah. Come on. 

[01:28:54] Travis Bader: Registration leads to confiscation.

Nah. 

[01:28:56] Blair Hagen: No, they'd never do that. [01:29:00] 

[01:29:00] Travis Bader: Um, so driving businesses out. 

[01:29:03] Blair Hagen: Yep. 

[01:29:04] Travis Bader: Uh, I've told this story before, but when I started the Silvercore Club back in the day, they- Yeah ... they, the firearms program says, "Okay, uh, we want you to belong to a gun club or range in order for us to issue an authorization to transport, 'cause that shows us a legitimate reason why you're gonna have to transport it."

And a little- And 

[01:29:23] Blair Hagen: that, that was a policy that was widely adopted by CFOs nationwide. 

[01:29:26] Travis Bader: Right. And then a lit- Yeah ... a little further down they said, "Well, if you've got a restricted license, well, maybe we need to know you belong to a gun club or range if you're getting one or having one renewed." 

[01:29:34] Blair Hagen: Yeah. 

[01:29:35] Travis Bader: And, um, spottily implemented province by province.

[01:29:38] Blair Hagen: In different provinces right across the country. I mean, if you look at Quebec, I mean, in order to, uh, hold the registration and to have ATC, you have to demonstrate that you att- you went to the range at least once a year. 

[01:29:50] Travis Bader: Sure. So I- 

[01:29:52] Blair Hagen: And they check up on it ... 

[01:29:54] Travis Bader: I, I hired a lawyer, 'cause I said, "I've, I've read the act, I've read the regulations, I've read the code, I've looked at [01:30:00] everything.

You don't have the authority to do this. I'm gonna challenge it in court." Yeah, yeah. Right? Young, naive me. And the firearms officer comes and he explains, and I've told this part before, says, "Trav, we're the federal government, we got all the money in the world. We got your money. We'll hang it up- There you go

forever." Right? Yeah. "Start, start a club," right? And I said, "Well, I don't have property in the range." "No, no. Club," right? 

[01:30:19] Blair Hagen: Yeah. 

[01:30:20] Travis Bader: Okay. What I haven't told before was, uh, a bit of the impetus that I think around that, because around the exact same time, um, that same firearms officer says, "Oh, Trav, you know, we're all getting called back east.

We've got to go to Ottawa, we've got a big meeting, firearms officers, we're all- 

[01:30:40] Blair Hagen: Yeah ... 

[01:30:40] Travis Bader: all meeting up." I guess some, uh, kid took a gun to school, handgun. Yeah. And, um, I think it was elementary school. Yeah. He said, his words, "It was show and tell sort of thing." It, it wasn't, there was nothing nefarious that was done with it, but- 

[01:30:55] Blair Hagen: Yeah, it's a kid.

[01:30:56] Travis Bader: Right. Uh, but they want to, um- [01:31:00] then wanna meet with the firearms officers, and they're g- they're setting some course of action. "I'll tell you all about it when I get back." 

[01:31:05] Blair Hagen: Okay. "

[01:31:05] Travis Bader: Oh, okay." Comes on back, says, "Sorry, Trav, love to, but, you know, I'm a man of my word, but I've also had to sign an NDA, so, uh, an NDA doesn't allow me to talk about it.

But what I c- can say is that the, uh, firearms program and federal government is coming up with a three-pronged approach to limiting legal firearms ownership in Canada." 

[01:31:27] Blair Hagen: Hmm. 

[01:31:28] Travis Bader: Not illegal, legal- 

[01:31:30] Blair Hagen: Legal ... 

[01:31:30] Travis Bader: firearms ownership in Canada. And it was right around that time when the, uh, requirement to belong to a gun club or range came out.

I think that was one of the prongs. I think another prong was going after the businesses, 'cause if you can cut the head off the snake- Yeah ... as I've heard that, uh, used around the firearms officers in the past. 

[01:31:50] Blair Hagen: Interesting. 

[01:31:50] Travis Bader: Yeah. If you can cut the head off the snake, the rest will fall. So when you say it's your perception that the, um, uh, [01:32:00] businesses are being targeted, I'm going back to around 2005- Yeah

and that was part of the plan. Now, it wasn't explicitly told to me. I connected those dots because right after that they came out with the, uh, requi- requirement to belong to a gun club or a range- Yeah ... and right after that they started cracking down on firearms businesses. And some of it was like the film industry one.

Yeah. Everyone could get a film industry business license, and then all of a sudden that became really hard, and then there was those, uh, uh, police officers who were doing their own film business- Mm-hmm ... and cutting corners and doing... Like, there, there's that whole shady thing. Yeah, yeah. I'm sure if you talk to Tom Falcon, he can fill you in on that one.

Oh, yes. Um- 

[01:32:37] Blair Hagen: Tom's got s- Tom's got some stories. 

[01:32:39] Travis Bader: Oh, yeah. But, um, uh, and there was some people who were actually doing things shady that they shouldn't have been that were, weren't even cops. 

[01:32:47] Blair Hagen: Uh, uh, uh, always are, always will be. 

[01:32:50] Travis Bader: Right. 

[01:32:51] Blair Hagen: Invest- investigate them and charge them. 

[01:32:52] Travis Bader: 100%. 

[01:32:53] Blair Hagen: Yeah. 

[01:32:54] Travis Bader: I think, uh, I think that was a big push, and you saw the impact of what they [01:33:00] started putting in- Yeah

on business license conditions- 

[01:33:02] Blair Hagen: Yes ... 

[01:33:03] Travis Bader: where the law wouldn't permit them to put it on their business license. I, 

[01:33:07] Blair Hagen: I, I've, I've experienced that. Okay. Okay? But even before that, I mean, even when they brought in long gun registration, I mean, I, I swear half the businesses, and, and mostly, you know, the mom-and-pop businesses, uh, you know, in East Haystack, uh, Saskatchewan- Mm

you know, selling guns for years, uh, you know, out of the hardware store, a lot of those closed down- Yeah ... just stopped selling guns, and that was part of the plan. 

[01:33:31] Travis Bader: So where do we go from here? Well, uh, I believe the NFA's on the Conservative Party of Canada's Outdoors- 

[01:33:38] Blair Hagen: Yes ... 

[01:33:39] Travis Bader: Committee now. Yeah. C- can you tell me about that?

[01:33:41] Blair Hagen: Uh, very positive, uh, uh, devel- you know, very positive development for us. Uh, this is the, uh, committee that, uh, will be, and is already approaching, uh, the types of firearms law reforms that will be enacted when Conservatives form government. Yeah. Okay? And you know what? A- and this is all part of the progression of, of [01:34:00] gun politics in Canada- Mm-hmm

which I love. I've loved this, and I've, I've studied this for over 30 years. I love this, and we are finally at a point where we have people in political parties, and I'm talking about MPs, who understand the firearms issue the way we do. 

[01:34:17] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:34:18] Blair Hagen: Okay? And they know- 

[01:34:20] Travis Bader: You're seeing that now, aren't you? 

[01:34:21] Blair Hagen: I, I know.

It's like, uh, uh, you know, people who, you know, experienced the long gun registry, people who understand the way the licensing system works, uh, people who are caught up in these OICs. 

[01:34:31] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:34:32] Blair Hagen: And the, e- you don't have to... I, I'm finding less and less that I'm having to educate these people, which I love. It's great.

No kidding. And it's like, "Okay, well, okay, uh, okay, sir, this is the way it is. They said..." "No, no, no, it's okay. I already know." 

[01:34:44] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[01:34:44] Blair Hagen: And I'm going, "Great." 

[01:34:47] Travis Bader: What a boon, eh? 

[01:34:48] Blair Hagen: What, what... It, it's fantastic. I mean, when you have people who have common sense, understand what has been done to, uh, uh, legal gun owners in Canada over the years, where we are now, now with [01:35:00] the...

W- we've got the most restrictive legislation, orders and council, everything, that we've ever had in the history of this country. 

[01:35:06] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:35:07] Blair Hagen: Are we a safer country? 

[01:35:09] Travis Bader: No, I don't think the numbers would back that one up 

[01:35:11] Blair Hagen: Certainly not. What's going on in our cities. Um, uh, people- I think people recognize that w- that we have, uh, a very bad problem with the legal system.

Mm. I think people recognize that, uh... And, and, and you know, I, I, I don't think it's a problem with law enforcement because they can catch them all day long. 

[01:35:26] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[01:35:27] Blair Hagen: But I mean, once they get them in court and they get kicked loose, what do you do? Arrest them. Arrest them. All you can do is arrest them again. 

[01:35:32] Travis Bader: I'll double arrest you.

Here you go. Triple arrest you. Here you go. 

[01:35:35] Blair Hagen: It's like, it's, it, it very much is a revolving door. You know, they talk about a revolving door legal system in the United States. Canada has had that for decades. Mm. And, and until we get serious about, um, I hate to say it, punishing violent crimes, you know. Uh, does a...

Can a finger behind bars pull a trigger? 

[01:35:55] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:35:56] Blair Hagen: You know? Uh, probably not. 

[01:35:58] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:35:59] Blair Hagen: You're not gonna have [01:36:00] that, the same kind of access to firearms. And, you know, we do have easy access to firearms in Canada, not legal firearms certainly. Mm. But, you know, uh, w- we, we share a, a very, very long and mostly uncontrolled border with the United States, and the, the fact of the matter, as long as there is a demand for- 

[01:36:18] Travis Bader: There'll be a supply

[01:36:18] Blair Hagen: e- e- exactly. And whenever I talk to- That's one thing a lot of politicians don't get right now. The, "Well, why are we having this problem, you know, with all these guns coming into Canada?" And it's like, "Well, I mean, we gotta improve border security." And I, I guess you can always make a case for that, right?

Sure. But again, they, they don't, they seem to miss this part about the demand. 

[01:36:38] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:36:39] Blair Hagen: It's like if we just secure the border, um, y- you know, m- make it, you know, very, very difficult to get guns across, they won't come. 

[01:36:46] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[01:36:46] Blair Hagen: No, they're gonna continue to come, and they're... If, if they can't come, or if it's not feasible for them to come from the United States, they'll come from offshore.

[01:36:54] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:36:55] Blair Hagen: Okay? It's the demand, because criminals know that they can use a gun in [01:37:00] an offense in Canada today in 2026, and it's not going to be a major part of their problem. Mm-hmm. Because that is the charge that is gonna get plea bargained away first. 

[01:37:10] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:37:11] Blair Hagen: And if you're only doing, you know, six months, a year, four or five years in prison You know, maybe that maybe it's worth doing it because, uh, I, I hate to say it, I mean, where, where firearm- firearms like 60 years ago, 70 years ago, uh, it was a big deal- Right

for a gun to be used in a defense in Canada. Okay? It had to be a particularly bad guy or, or a psycho or something for a guy to actually use a gun. Most criminals stayed away from it. You know, it was, you know, fists or blunt objects or knives or, or, or that sort of thing. The gun was, "Hey, dude, you don't wanna do that."

[01:37:46] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[01:37:46] Blair Hagen: Because the type of, uh, sentence you would receive was, well, there goes a big chunk of your life. 

[01:37:52] Travis Bader: Right. 

[01:37:53] Blair Hagen: But now. 

[01:37:54] Travis Bader: Now that fear's not there anymore. 

[01:37:55] Blair Hagen: No, it's gone. 

[01:37:57] Travis Bader: So I often get asked about [01:38:00] the different gun organizations in Canada. 

[01:38:02] Blair Hagen: Hmm. 

[01:38:02] Travis Bader: Yeah. "Oh, who should we support? Who should we get behind?" And I- 

[01:38:06] Blair Hagen: Get be- get behind one of them.

[01:38:08] Travis Bader: Well, I, I take a little different approach, and I say, um, "Why don't you get behind all of them?" Because they're all doing some things that I look at- Yeah ... and from my perspective, and everyone's gonna have a different opinion- 

[01:38:20] Blair Hagen: Sure ... 

[01:38:21] Travis Bader: they're doing some things that are great. 

[01:38:22] Blair Hagen: Yeah. 

[01:38:23] Travis Bader: And they're doing some things like, ah, man, I'd do it differently, differently than that, or I don't like- Or for that, yeah.

or I don't like this at all. But it's not the organizations, and you can correct me from your position if you're wrong- Yeah ... but it's not the organizations that's gonna save guns in Canada. They're gonna help organize the individuals. The individuals- That's right ... are the ones who are gonna save it. So get behind one- Yeah

whoever you think it might be, or all of them, and educate yourself- 

[01:38:49] Blair Hagen: Yeah ... 

[01:38:49] Travis Bader: as a best path forward. And if you get behind all of them, each one's gonna have a different nuance on what they feel the best path forward. Of course, yeah. And sometimes it all aligns, and sometimes maybe they're not. 

[01:38:59] Blair Hagen: You know, a lot of people have [01:39:00] misconceptions about, uh, uh, gun politics and, uh, gun organizations, lobby groups, that sort of thing, and what they do and, and what they can't do really.

Mm-hmm. And, uh, you know, it's always, uh, here it is again, the United States, right? You know, uh, the NRA. The NRA, uh, goes into, goes to Washington and, uh, you know, um, they're, they're, they're held in awe, they're held in fear, and they shut down legislation. Well, that's just not true. I mean, they've had, uh, certainly had successes over the years, and I love NRA as an organization, what they've done, you know- Sure

organ- organizing sport shooting and that sort of thing, and their lobbying efforts. But, uh, uh, a- again, it, it doesn't always work that way. They are... Because, uh, politicians can't t- talk to every stakeholder in the country- Sure ... okay? Uh, they can talk to their constituents, and they are talking the, to the constituents today in Canada, which I love.

This is another thing I love. People are actually talking to their MPs. Mm. They're talking to their MLAs, and that is so important. I don't like what's going on [01:40:00] with guns. Uh, when you form a government, when you're in office, I expect you to do something about that. 

[01:40:05] Travis Bader: Do you think that's the number one thing that people can do individually?

Uh, uh, 

[01:40:08] Blair Hagen: it always has been. 

[01:40:09] Travis Bader: So if they wanna do that, is there, are there primers of how they can go and talk to their representative in a way that- 

[01:40:16] Blair Hagen: Sure, and we, we educate our members, but you know what? It's not complicated. 

[01:40:20] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[01:40:20] Blair Hagen: And it's not hard. You just go in as a regular person and say, "This is my problem.

This is what they're doing to me. I don't think this is warranted. I'm a law-abiding, upstanding individual, and I'm not going to accept it." Plus, it doesn't work. I mean, you can educate yourself as, as much as you want. Um, it's like write- you know, the old thing about writing letters to politicians, and everybody...

I would always get questions about this because people thought they, you know, they had to have, like, a 10-page letter with all, you know, all kinds of, uh, stats and statistics, and this, that, references. And it's like, no, you don't have to do that. Keep it short, keep it concise, and, uh, make it real, uh, for the [01:41:00] elected representative that you're dealing with.

And th- they can really, they, they can really relate to that because- Mm ... you're not coming on like a big, you're a, a gun lobby guy, whi- which is, is a problem for us because they know who we are. Mm. They know where we're coming from, and- Sure ... and that's fine. 

[01:41:14] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[01:41:15] Blair Hagen: Okay. Uh, we can speak broadly, uh, for the mass of firearms owners in Canada who can't do that.

[01:41:20] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:41:20] Blair Hagen: And so therefore, they come to us and say, "Okay, how about, uh, this for firearms law reform," or, "What's wrong with this and," or, or that. And, and we can speak, uh, uh, with authority on that because, you know, we've dealt with this, you know, through the reg- regulation, through the legislation for, for years and decades.

Mm. And they know that. But for actual polital- political impetus, just the regular guy going, "Hey, this is wrong and it's gotta stop." 

[01:41:46] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[01:41:46] Blair Hagen: And you don't have to be, um, y- you don't have to have 30 years of experience to do that, okay? 

[01:41:53] Travis Bader: Agreed. Agreed. Is there anything that we haven't talked about that we should be talking about?[01:42:00] 

[01:42:00] Blair Hagen: Oh, boy. Uh- I think we've, uh, uh, c- covered most of it. Um, another thing I've been saying a lot these days, support your local gun store. I, I know people don't have a lot of discretionary spending anymore. 

[01:42:15] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[01:42:15] Blair Hagen: You know, um, but, you know, if you can, if, i- i- if you can make that investment because we're, we're, we're losing a lot of businesses.

I mean, my God, I, I take a l- a look around here locally and you, y- you're aware of who's- Sure ... who's not, just not there anymore. 

[01:42:29] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[01:42:30] Blair Hagen: And that's a problem. Um, um, again, you know, get involved with a, with an organization like Canada's National Firearms Association. Uh, we have a field officer program.

Basically you're a representative of your community. A lot of people think there's a lot of onerous requirements for that. I gotta go do this, I gotta go do that, the other thing. Yeah, 

[01:42:48] Travis Bader: what do they have to do? 

[01:42:49] Blair Hagen: Uh, whatever your best efforts or tolerance, or, or talents are, okay? Right. If you like talking to, to politicians, you can do that.

If you like, uh, distributing [01:43:00] information at, at, at guns, gun stores, you can do that. If you like r- representing an organization at gun shows, you can do that. Hmm. It's really what you, you can bring. And we have individuals who, who do all of those things. Field officers do all of those things, you know? Um, so there's not...

Y- you don't get, uh, a, a job description. Basically, um, I, I remember when I first got involved and I, I was appointed- ... a field officer by Dave Thomas, and I said, "Dave, I mean, what, what am I supposed to do?" "You'll figure it out." 

[01:43:29] Travis Bader: And he sure as hell did- ... didn't he? 

[01:43:31] Blair Hagen: It's like... So, you know, it's really, you know... U- use your imagination.

There's all kinds of things you do, and as you get more experience, uh, then, uh, y- you can sort of move up the ladder. I did. 

[01:43:44] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[01:43:45] Blair Hagen: Yeah. 

[01:43:45] Travis Bader: Okay. Well, for those listening to this, uh, I'd highly encourage, go check out nfa.ca. Check out what they stand for, what they're doing, and shoot Blair a message, shoot the NFA a message [01:44:00] over- Sure

because, uh, they've always been very responsive, probably even more responsive if you're a member, so that, uh, but I think you respond to basically everybody. 

[01:44:08] Blair Hagen: Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, I get these questions. Uh, the people call our office with a, a, a legal question or looking for guidance, and guess what?

If you do that, you're gonna be talking to me. 

[01:44:18] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[01:44:18] Blair Hagen: And, uh, you don't have to be a member. Uh, I, I understand that, uh, a lot of people can't. 

[01:44:25] Travis Bader: I think that's a smart approach. 

[01:44:26] Blair Hagen: Yeah. It, it's like I'm, I'm not gonna turn you away- No ... uh, because there are so ma- many people in this country that are negatively affected by, uh, uh, uh, the federal government's actions, basically, and it's just...

W- luckily, I'm in a position where I can ad- uh, advise people. Um, you know, I have a f- I have a full-time job, obviously, but it's a job that lends itself- Mm ... to allowing me, uh, to take questions from people and helping people because, uh, a lot of it's, uh, a lot of it in- uh, includes licensed firearms businesses.[01:45:00] 

So yeah, no, uh, if you call NFA, you're gonna be talking to me, and we're gonna give you straight goods, uh, real-world explanations into plain language. 

[01:45:08] Travis Bader: So I'll leave it at consider supporting your local organization. Check out the NFA. Consider supporting them- S- ... if 

[01:45:13] Blair Hagen: that makes sense ... strength, strength, strength in numbers.

Yeah. I mean, you know, we always get this question. First thing, first thing a politician's gonna ask you, "How many members do you have?" 

[01:45:21] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[01:45:21] Blair Hagen: Because that's how many votes you represent, and- Yeah, good 

[01:45:24] Travis Bader: point ... 

[01:45:25] Blair Hagen: you know, um- And so l- just based on that. And our membership, uh, I, I'm very pleased with the way our membership is today.

Uh, it's bigger than it ever has been before. A lot of that is, you know, the fear of what's, uh, going to- Mm ... happen, uh, with, with the orders in council. People want representation. They want, uh, th- they want groups, uh, to, uh, uh, to, to, uh, take this forward in Ottawa and, and, and come to a resolution. But, uh, yeah, uh, I understand everybody's limited.

Um, I'm limited myself, but, uh, if you can support NFA, please, [01:46:00] please do so. If you like the work we- especially if you like the work we do. Um, but, uh, it, it- support at least one farms organization or all. 

[01:46:10] Travis Bader: Or all. And here's something you can do that's absolutely free. If you like the conversation and you think that other people should hear this, share this episode.

Post it on social media. Get it on out there. Yeah. And if you're interested in getting your authorization to carry a firearm or learning ways that you can, uh, legally with the frees own and transfer- Yeah ... restricted handguns, check the link in the podcast here, and it'll have a complete guide for you. Um, Blair, it was an absolute pleasure having you on here.

[01:46:43] Blair Hagen: Thanks. Just before we s- Yeah ... uh, we break here, uh, I just wanna say, Rick, wherever you are, thank you Rick Iger- Igersic. You did so much good for this organization, and I'm gonna miss you, man, because you were the hardest-working guy I ever, [01:47:00] I ever s- uh, one of the hardest-working guys I ever saw, and I've seen a few.

Um, yeah, so, um, I'm, uh... Although previously I was, uh, executive vice president, I'm, I'm also, uh, going to be acting as president now. As we work through these changes, it's not a big, uh, it's not a big thing. I've done this before. I was, uh, president from, uh, 2008 to 2010, um, after Dave Thomlinson died. Uh, I was president for, like, six months in 2022, so this is my, uh, third kick at the can.

[01:47:36] Travis Bader: Blair, thank you so much for everything you do. It's been great having you on here, and we're gonna have to do this again. 

[01:47:42] Blair Hagen: I would really like to do that.