About this episode

Jay Nichol spends around 140 days a year in the mountains. He guides black bear, mule deer, mountain goat and coues deer across British Columbia, Alberta and Mexico, and runs The Mindful Hunter, an unsponsored gear-review and podcast platform that has grown into Mindful Hunter Outfitting, the Forged in the Backcountry apparel line, and Mindful Munitions, a new Canadian store for the gear he trusts.

In this conversation with Travis Bader, Jay explains what he changed after too many clients missed their shot in spring bear camp, how 18 years of sobriety shaped the way he leaves home for a hunt, and what sends hunters out of the backcountry early.

Chapters

00:00 Introducing Jay Nichol

03:00 Leaving home at 15

04:00 Only as sick as our secrets

08:00 Stolen CDs and the start of addiction

14:00 Addiction as a sense of purpose

18:00 The rite of passage nobody gave him

24:00 Letting people help you

26:00 Two mistakes: no mentor, no community

32:00 The annealing hot take

35:00 University with no high school diploma

40:00 Proving something to his father

43:00 Ego death and moments of clarity

49:00 Clean your house before you leave

52:00 The dark years, 2023 and 2024

56:00 Tapping out versus breaking

1:01:00 Why men talk shoulder to shoulder

1:09:00 Hours per day doing what you love

1:12:00 Anger as fuel, and compartmentalizing

1:17:00 Telling his daughter no

1:19:00 1,200 rounds in five days

1:22:00 The kneeling logging road shot

1:24:00 Buy a 223, shoot 1,000 rounds

1:27:00 Kill the weak parts

1:30:00 Zone two and the StairMaster

1:36:00 Travis on going into AFib

1:42:00 The illusion of learning

1:45:00 Nothing died, so you failed

1:47:00 36 deer in 105 minutes

1:50:00 Spend it on field days, not a spotter

1:52:00 Forged in the Backcountry

1:56:00 Outfitting in BC, Alberta and Mexico

2:00:00 Launching Mindful Munitions

2:04:00 Why the focus is men

Resources & partners

The Truth About Training for Mountain Hunting (free downloadable plan): https://youtu.be/wAugmpvZrtc

Free downloads and tools: https://www.mindfulhunter.com/tools

Kowa TSN-88A Sweepstakes: https://forgedinthebackcountry.com/blogs/resources/kowa-tsn-88a-sweepstakes

Find Jay Nichol:

The Mindful Hunter: https://www.mindfulhunter.com

The Mindful Hunter Podcast: https://mindfulhunter.podbean.com

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/MindfulHunter

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mindful_hunter

Mindful Munitions: https://mindfulmunitions.com

Forged in the Backcountry: https://forgedinthebackcountry.com

Forged in the Backcountry on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/forgedinthebackcountry

Mindful Reviews: https://www.mindful-reviews.com

Travis Bader: [00:00:00] I've shared a microphone with today's guest twice, once when he ran a room full of BC podcasters fighting the 7B regulation changes, and once as a guest on his podcast. He sold a consulting firm in Vancouver to go live in the mountains. He guides bears in the BC bush, spends 140 days a year in the field. \He's filmed himself alone on a sheep mountain for 15 days, and he failed at elk seven years running before he finally arrowed one. He has no sponsors for the gear that he reviews, so nobody owns his opinion, and this spring, he told his own audience that nearly half the hunters in his camp couldn't make the shot, and he implemented mandatory shooting drills for every hunter who books with him. \He's a hunter, [00:01:00] a father, a husband, and a man who does nothing halfway. Welcome to the Silvercore Podcast, Jay Nichol. \

Jay Nichol: Well, thank you for having me, man. I appreciate it. \

Travis Bader: Absolutely. Jay, it's, um... it's been a long time coming. Been on your podcast- Yep ... and had a fun time there. That was, uh... you got a pretty cool setup, and, uh, now, uh, I'm watching your trajectory and what you're building and what you're growing, and I thought, "Man, I gotta get this guy on the podcast." \You've got just... you got a hell of a lot of knowledge, and you got some pretty cool endeavors in the works that I think we should talk about at some point on this podcast too. \

Jay Nichol: Yeah. Thank you very much. I feel very fortunate. It's been a lot of work behind the scenes for a lot of years, and I think in the last couple years, if people haven't been paying attention, it feels like it kinda all happened at once. \But I've been making content for almost a decade now, and so I think I'm finally starting to reap the benefits of laying all that groundwork for all those years. \

Travis Bader: It's only a 15-year overnight success, right? \

Jay Nichol: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. [00:02:00] \

Travis Bader: Isn't it funny the harder you work, the luckier you get? \

Jay Nichol: Yeah, so true. \

Travis Bader: It's... \from the outside, and I get that all the time, people are like, "Holy crow, it looks so easy. I don't know. How do you get into it?" Man, things aren't easy. They, they take time, and I'm, I'm looking at your... well, why don't you tell me? Why don't you tell me a little bit about your background and kinda your trajectory of what got you here? \

Jay Nichol: Yeah, and I'll try, I'll try and make it somewhat brief. Brevity is not one of my greatest skills- ... unfortunately. \

Travis Bader: Wax on, I tell ya. Go on. \

Jay Nichol: So I did not grow up in a hunting family, or at least I didn't grow up- I shouldn't say that 'cause we definitely, my dad and my grandfather did hunt. So I grew up in Ontario, and my father's side of the family would do basically an annual moose hunt. \And so this was like 10 days right over Thanksgiving, Canadian Thanksgiving for any of the [00:03:00] American listeners, in, uh, in northern Ontario. And my whole childhood, all I wanted to do was go on this moose hunt. And I, I went for two years. It was either when I was 12 and 13 or 13 and 14, and then had a big falling out with my old man and that side of the family, and kinda didn't speak to them for almost a decade. \

Travis Bader: At 12 or 13? \

Jay Nichol: Yeah. \

Travis Bader: Yeah. Okay. \

Jay Nichol: So- \

Travis Bader: That's a pretty early age to be having a falling out with- \

Jay Nichol: Uh, yeah ... \a \

Travis Bader: full side of your family. \

Jay Nichol: Yeah. I got an early start on a, a whole bunch of stuff. \

Travis Bader: Huh. \

Jay Nichol: Uh, I ended up moving out when I was 15. My parents split when I was six. I was a pretty active drug addict from a very early age. \

Travis Bader: Addict like...? \

Jay Nichol: Like full-blown intravenous use of heroin and cocaine starting when I was 15. \

Travis Bader: From 15? \

Jay Nichol: Yeah. \

Travis Bader: Holy crow. \

Jay Nichol: Yeah. Well, it was funny because before we- Yeah, \

Travis Bader: that sounds funny ... \

Jay Nichol: we hit record- ... you mentioned my, my comfort level being open. Mm. \

Travis Bader: Yes. \

Jay Nichol: And I attribute a lot of [00:04:00] that to recovery. \

Travis Bader: Okay. ' \

Jay Nichol: Cause we're only as sick as our secrets. \And so- \

Travis Bader: Okay. Tell, tell me what you mean, like, by that one \

Jay Nichol: I only have to be worried about the things people don't know. If I'm worried about somebody finding something out about me, if I'm trying to keep it from other people, or if I'm embarrassed or ashamed, the only way that those pieces of information have power over me is if they're not open and out there. \Because once they're open and out, they don't hold that power over you anymore. You don't have any fear over them. I, I'm, I'm not gonna d-dive super deep into, like, the 12 steps, but one of the recurring themes of working the 12 steps is to outline the things that you did in your life, take an appropriate amount of responsibility for them, because it can go both ways. \As men [00:05:00] and as alpha men, we, we have just as much of a tendency to take too much responsibility as not enough. And so take an appropriate amount of responsibility for the things that you did in your life or the things that happened to you in your life and how they affected you and how you look at the world, and then figure out a way com- a way to make amends. \And I don't mean apologize. I mean to make an amend, like to mend something. Okay. To fix something that was previously broken. Sometimes that might mean financial repayment. It might mean making an apology and just owning something. It might mean fixing a relationship that was broken and spending 10 years trying to rebuild trust that was broken in a matter of weeks, depending on- Mm-hmm \what your behavior might have been. And so what you learn through that process, and it's kind of funny because this has spilled over into the way [00:06:00] I approach hunting and the backcountry. And we'll, we'll get into this too, but this is why the backcountry is so important to me. If you are capable of being ruthlessly honest to yourself about yourself, like why you do the things you do, why you feel the motivations that you feel or don't feel the motivations that you feel, and you can admit those things and be honest with them about yourself, then you're capable of addressing those issues. \And that's why I don't, I don't have any issues being an open and vulnerable b- partially because I know who I am and who I'm capable of being. \

Travis Bader: Hmm. \

Jay Nichol: And it's a pretty terrible person. \

Travis Bader: At what point did you become okay with that level of vuln- vulnerability? \

Jay Nichol: After the work. \

Travis Bader: So f- 15 till when were you- \

Jay Nichol: So I sobered up the first time when I was 23 years old. \

Travis Bader: That's a long stint. \

Jay Nichol: So 15 to 23 is, like, full-blown drug addiction, needle in my arm, running dope from, for bikers from, like, Winnipeg to Northern Ontario, like, really badass type stuff. H- \

Travis Bader: how do [00:07:00] you get at 15 to needle in your arm- \

Jay Nichol: Yeah ... \

Travis Bader: heroin injection? I mean, I, I think for most people, like, there's gonna be steps before that. \

Jay Nichol: Sure. Uh, so f- for starters, I do not adhere to the philosophy that everything happens for a reason. \

Travis Bader: Hmm. \

Jay Nichol: I much more believe in the chaotic nature of the universe. Now, this does not mean we can't pull meaning out of things, and this doesn't mean that when something bad happens, w- we can't make it a good thing by paying attention to it and learning the things. \But I don't believe that just because some bad stuff happened to me, it had to have some kind of bigger, uh, meaning to it. Um- \

Travis Bader: Well, the reason is something you derive after the fact. \

Jay Nichol: Yes. \

Travis Bader: So everything happens. I, I'll agree with that. Yeah. Everything happens, and then at some point you can derive a reason and rationalize whatever that is, and hopefully it's, hopefully it's a good one. \

Jay Nichol: Totally. So we can go right [00:08:00] back to the first night I ever shot heroin. So w- in my... I lived in a small town in southern Ontario. I moved 32 times by the time I was 18. But when I was, like, 13, 14, 15, I was living in a small town called Owen Sound in southern Ontario. And much like these, like, post-manufacturing towns, like there was an old Monroe factory and an old Weyerhaeuser factory, they'd all shut down. \There's, like, retired people and out-of-work people in these rural communities. There were something like 20,000 people in my town. So the only thing for the youth to do in those towns is kinda drugs. \

Travis Bader: Sure. \

Jay Nichol: And you see that, you see that in northern BC, you see that all over the place. \

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. \

Jay Nichol: Um, and so I'd been smoking weed and doing acid and all that kinda stuff since my early teens. \And one of our favorite things to do, this is a throwback for some of the older listeners, is go into Kmart. And we would shoplift eight CDs, and this was back when [00:09:00] the CDs used to come in those large plastic sleeves to prevent you- Sure, yeah ... from stealing them. \

Travis Bader: Yeah. \

Jay Nichol: And we would just wear big jackets. \We'd go in with two dudes. I would take four, and my buddy would take four. And if we left the plastic on, the pawn shop would give us an extra buck because he could sell them as brand-new Uh, so we would get six bucks per CD. Eight times six is 48. A pack of smokes was three bucks back then. And so that would be enough for an eighth of weed and a pack of smokes. \

Travis Bader: Mm. \

Jay Nichol: And that would be, like, our night. Do you know what I mean? We were on spring break from high school. During the day you'd go lift these eight CDs, sell them in the afternoon, and then go get a bag of weed and a pack of smokes. Mm. And then that was your night. So we'd done that earlier in the day, and we're downtown, and we run into my buddy, and we're like, "We need an eighth of weed." \And he's like, "Oh, my uncle doesn't have any weed, but I, but I do know a guy who's got some heroin." And this is where... Now, I had already done cocaine at this point, and [00:10:00] already smoked rock even. Like, I, I, there... It's funny you mentioned the no... There's a, there's a saying in the, in the 12-step, "Half measures avail us nothing," but you mentioned something about that in the intro. \

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. \

Jay Nichol: And it's characteristics are like hammers. You can build a house with them or you can smash somebody over the head with them. \

Travis Bader: Sure. \

Jay Nichol: They're not inherently good or bad. \

Travis Bader: Sure. \

Jay Nichol: And I think the intensity of my character is just one of my defining characteristics, and it can rear its head in both directions. \

Travis Bader: Yeah. \

Jay Nichol: And so when he said, "I can go get some heroin," I was like, "Let's go." \

Travis Bader: No, no second thoughts, just- \

Jay Nichol: Zero. \

Travis Bader: Really? \

Jay Nichol: No peer pressure, no second thoughts. And so this is why it's like I, I, I don't have a rational explanation. I wasn't forced into it. I wasn't... You know, I had a, a fairly rough childhood. We grew up pretty poor. \I could tell a lot of backstories that would account for a lot of trauma as to why we were doing the things we did, but in that moment there was no extraneous motivation for it. Mm. [00:11:00] It was just an opportunity, and I liked experiences, so I'm like, "Let's do it." And I'll go one step further So for people listening who don't have a lot of experience with drugs, a real common way to buy cocaine would be, like, a gram. \Heroin tends to be about one-tenth the size or 10 times the cost of coke. So you wouldn't-- buying a whole gram of heroin would be a lot, especially back then. \

Travis Bader: Okay. \

Jay Nichol: So you tend to buy it in, like, tenths instead of, like, a gram or a quarter of a gram like you would with blow. Probably too much detail for people. \The reason- Hey, I'm \

Travis Bader: learning. \

Jay Nichol: The reason I tell this is that when you get your little flap and open it up, you are looking at a deceptively small pile of powder. Like, you are like... Your brain is just like, "How is this even gonna do anything?" And we were in this buddy's apartment. I opened it up, and there was a guy shooting up in the corner. \And I was like, "There's no way ingesting this any other way is gonna do anything to me except for shooting [00:12:00] it up." \

Travis Bader: Hmm. \

Jay Nichol: I'd never, uh, intravenously used any drugs at that point, and so I was like, "I just wanna do what that guy's doing." Two of my buddies both turn to me and go, "You're an idiot. What are you talking about?" \Um, you can also smoke heroin on a piece of tinfoil called chasing the dragon, or you can snort it, and that they were gonna do one of those two methods. So anyways, this guy comes over and cooks it up in a spoon. I still remember looking down. I can see the dandruff in his head- \

Travis Bader: Hmm ... \

Jay Nichol: as he actually injects me with the heroin. \And it was just like, it was like Pulp Fiction or one of those movies, man. Like, it was... And \

Travis Bader: you- Trainspotting. \

Jay Nichol: And you gotta remember, like, that's when I grew up. \

Travis Bader: Yeah. \

Jay Nichol: I'm about to turn 48 in two weeks. Okay. I grew up in the peak of heroin chic. Kurt Cobain was huge. Pulp Fiction was huge. Um, all of the rock stars were on heroin. \Hmm. Like, it was the thing to do. Like, downers were very- \

Travis Bader: All the cool kids are \

Jay Nichol: doing it ... [00:13:00] 100%. 100%. And so, oh yeah, this, like, intense warmth spread throughout the back of my neck, and it was like, boom. Um- And so for the next eight years of my life, drugs were the driving force. Mm-hmm. It was the only thing I gave a shit about. \Sacrificed everything, relationships, family, jobs. I pur- I pursued it with the same tenacity that I pursue the goals that I have today. It was just unfortunate that it was such a... It was not a well-chosen goal, to say the least. \

Travis Bader: No. You know, people talk about and say, "Oh, you know, uh, meth." Yeah. "Try it once and you're, that's it, you're addicted. \Heroin, you try it once and you're addicted." I don't know, Grandma goes in for hip surgery, she gets, like, pure hydromorphine, and she's not addicted. Like, there's, there's an underlying driver somewhere in here that's, uh, um, addiction based, whatever the substance might be. \

Jay Nichol: Oh, I'd, I'd agree wholeheartedly, and I think there's a couple different factors at that. \The Big Book of [00:14:00] Alcoholics has a n- has a, a line in it that says, "The difference between a heavy drinker and an alcoholic is that a heavy drinker can quit given sufficient circumstance." It was written a very long time ago, so it's very- Sure ... oldie style English So there's a couple things going on. One, I don't really put so much stock in the physical addiction characteristics. \I mean, if you do, alcohol is more physically addicting than any other substance on the planet. It's the only substance, except for some barbiturates, that you can actually die from withdrawal. Like, you cannot-- like, a lifelong alcoholic cannot come off cold turkey without some type of medication to get them through the DTs or they could die. \

Travis Bader: Sure. \

Jay Nichol: Heroin won't kill you, coke won't kill you. You might feel like you're gonna die, but it takes months or years to develop that level of physical addiction. I think what's really going on with people, two things. I think most people are missing a sense of purpose. I think this is probably one of the [00:15:00] driving forces in our lives, and in fact, getting into the shooting sports and hunting, I think the reason they're gaining in popularity is this search for a confirmation of humanity. \We used to have this list of characteristics that if we could check those boxes, we knew we were human. We're having a conversation right now. Cat can't have a conversation. I'm having an interesting thought before I speak. A, a, a cat can't have an interesting thought. All of a sudden, ChatGPT, Claude, and Manus can have interesting thoughts and can hold conversations- \

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm \

Jay Nichol: and can execute these tasks that we once thought confirmed our humanity. So I think people are searching deeper and further for more activities and pursuits that do confirm. Going into the mountains, hunting animals. My wife is deeply obsessed with hot yoga. Uh, shooting sports, like these types of things that [00:16:00] are very primal that confirm to us that there is something different about us and, and makes us human. \But I think back to the addiction, I think addiction gives people a sense of purpose. W- the, the thing that sends most people back out is the complexity of life. \

Travis Bader: What do you mean a sense of purpose? Like an identity? \

Jay Nichol: You have a reason to get up every morning. \

Travis Bader: Huh. \

Jay Nichol: When you are a 15-year-old child living in rural Ontario, you g- y-why, why are you even getting up? \Hmm. You look around, everything's bleak. Nobody's rich. Nobody's making cool shit. Nobody's doing anything to change the world. And it's like, "What is the point?" It's a very nihilistic approach to life. You start doing drugs, specifically hard drugs, and it's like, "Better figure out the day." \

Travis Bader: You got a motor in you. \

Jay Nichol: I gotta figure out. I got something. I, I got, have a goal. And it doesn't matter how negative that goal is. I think that's one of the beautiful things about human beings. No matter [00:17:00] what the goal is, if you put a mission in front of us, it changes the way you look at the world. Like, it gives you a sense of meaning and purpose, and it elev- it makes you One of the driving philosophies in my life is that the secret to success is finding things that feel like play to you that look like work to others. \Because when I'm playing and you're working, you will never beat me. \

Travis Bader: 100%. \

Jay Nichol: It's impossible. \

Travis Bader: Sure. \

Jay Nichol: And that's what I- that's where I feel like I am in my life right now. \

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. \

Jay Nichol: I have surrounded myself with things that just feel very playful to me, and so I can go 18 hours a day. But I think the same thing is true when you get obsessed with things like, like drugs and other things. \Like, it gives you such a deep sense of purpose and goal that you... I- it's hard to let go of that. \

Travis Bader: But isn't that just a replacement- \

Jay Nichol: Oh, 100% ... \

Travis Bader: of, of addiction? \

Jay Nichol: 100%. \

Travis Bader: And your play could be [00:18:00] destructive, or it could be viewed as positive. \

Jay Nichol: Yep. \

Travis Bader: I mean, a workaholic, some people say, "Wow, look at how great they're doing," and their family might be like, "Holy crow, we never see the guy." \

Jay Nichol: Hunting happens the same way. People have lost jobs, and that's what I say. There is no inherent nature to characteristics. They are not good or bad. It is how you apply them and the outcomes derived from them that dictate their nature. It's the same as goals, the same as, uh, uh, as everything. I have this interesting concept called motivational honesty that's one of the things I spend more time thinking about than anything else, and I ultimately think the reasons why we do things are actually more important than the things that we do themselves. \

Travis Bader: I can get behind that. \

Jay Nichol: I struggled. I was a very unsuccessful hunter for a very long time because I had this, like, vision about how I wanted... Like, there was a, a way on a mountain by myself. No one helped. Like, I had a why. \

Travis Bader: Where did you get [00:19:00] that vision from? \

Jay Nichol: It's very interesting. I think a lot of it came from overcompensating from addiction. \So I did not have a strong relationship with my father growing up. I never went through that period. It's funny, I have a young daughter now. She's just turning 11, and I spend a lot of time thinking about this stuff. I never had a man say to me or convey to me through words or actions that I was now a man \

Travis Bader: That's a rite of passage that I think is missing in today's society- Oh, \

Jay Nichol: 100% \Western \

Travis Bader: culture. \

Jay Nichol: 100%. It, not only is it missing, it's now frowned upon. That's \

Travis Bader: right. \

Jay Nichol: Like, there's something negative about masculinity. \

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. And it- Like the Jewish community, they'll have their bar mitzvah, and they- Yep ... they have the whole process and ceremony, and there, there is this bar that- Yeah ... gets met and achieved. \And, and different cultures all around the world have different trials and tribulations or, or ceremonies- Yep ... that will mark the event. And you're right, it is quite frowned [00:20:00] upon now. \

Jay Nichol: Oh, it is, and I think it's a necessary step for, for boys to turn into men. And if you look back at my life, even to today, I'm, I'm overcompensating in a lot of ways for this belief that I'm not a man yet. \Not so much now as before, but if I go back to my 20s and 30s- \

Travis Bader: Sure ... \

Jay Nichol: that was the dri- I, I need to prove to myself and to the world that I'm a man, because nobody ever gave me, you know, the knight on his knee with the sword, and it's like nobody ever anointed me, "Okay, you're now a man, so you don't have to worry about childish pursuits anymore, and you can now carry yourself as a man carries himself in the world." \

Travis Bader: Well, what is a man, in your opinion? \

Jay Nichol: I mean, that is such a deep conversation. I think some of the things that differentiate men from boys are the way we carry ourselves. The, [00:21:00] going back to that vulnerability that we spoke about, like I think a defining characteristic of a boy is, uh, fear of vulnerability. \Mm. Because you're worried about what people are gonna think about you. Mm-hmm. And I think as you transition into manhood, that fear should go away if you have had a healthy transition and a healthy upbringing. I don't require external validation anymore. I don't, doesn't mean I don't want people to like me. \

Travis Bader: Sure. \

Jay Nichol: And it doesn't mean I don't want positive affect from those around me, but I don't require it to feel good about who I am. \

Travis Bader: Yeah, I agree. \

Jay Nichol: Because I, I now derive that internally. \

Travis Bader: Sure. And I- And it's got the inverse on both sides. \

Jay Nichol: Yep. \

Travis Bader: If you get the positive and that makes you feel good, then the negative will make you feel bad. \

Jay Nichol: Yep. \

Travis Bader: And you can't have one without the other. \

Jay Nichol: And I think that's a big part of that transition. I think when we are children and adolescents, all of our validation is derived externally. \

Travis Bader: Hmm. \

Jay Nichol: Our parents telling us we're good. Right. [00:22:00] We're getting good grades at school, our friends liking us and wanting to spend time with us. \Like, we only know we're valuable by the way the external world interacts with us. Sure. And I think at some point you transition out of that, and you're like, "I know I'm valuable partially because of now what I contribute to the world, and I no longer require that external validation loop to tell me," um- \

Travis Bader: That's still a little bit of an external validation because having value based on what you provide the world- \

Jay Nichol: Yeah \

Travis Bader: is a value structure based on, on what? The world's acceptance, right? Well- Of what is valuable. \

Jay Nichol: And here's something very interesting. Like, you alluded to having issues being open- \

Travis Bader: Yeah ... \

Jay Nichol: when, just before we hit record. \

Travis Bader: That's right. Honest, no problem. Open- Yeah ... no, I'm, I'm guarded, I'm compartmentalized, and if there's something I don't wanna talk about, we'll just, we won't talk about it. \

Jay Nichol: So I just had about an hour and a half conversation with a good friend of mine. We [00:23:00] did our MBAs together seven or eight years ago now, and we hadn't spoken in two or three years. Hmm. Maybe even four. And just out of nowhere he reached out and he's like, "Let's hop on a call." And both of us realized that we'd gone through two, about two years that were very dark. \2023 and 2024 for me were probably the hardest years since I've sobered up, for a variety of reasons that we can dive into. And he made this comment that he'd went through this really dark period. And that- \

Travis Bader: And neither of you contacted each other. \

Jay Nichol: Because- ' \

Travis Bader: Cause you're men. \

Jay Nichol: Right. And because we define our value by what we're capable of contributing to those around us. \

Travis Bader: Mm. \

Jay Nichol: And so when we feel we are incapable of contributing or our productivity or our output is not what we think it b- it, it should be, we think we're failing as men. And the last thing we wanna do is reach out and be open and honest about that. And i- uh, conversely, the first thing we should [00:24:00] be doing is reaching out. \And I'm not saying to everybody, but we need those two or three people that are like the inner circle that you can ... Because just by saying it and communicating it, you see how ridiculous it is. Like, my wife does not love me because I take out the garbage. My wife loves me because of who I am. And so when I get confused about why people value me and I place too much uh, va- weight on what I bring to their lives as opposed to who I am as a human being, then I get, I get... \And here's the thing, the problem is the more successful we are, the more convinced we become based on the rewards the, that the external world gives us, that we are, our value is based on what we create and produce- Sure ... in the world. \

Travis Bader: Have you heard of the Ben Franklin effect? \

Jay Nichol: Like the reciprocity? \

Travis Bader: Yeah. \

Jay Nichol: Yeah. \

Travis Bader: Yeah. That's an interesting one. \

Jay Nichol: Very. \

Travis Bader: Th- where somebody who is self-sufficient [00:25:00] and- Yeah ... capable and wants to help everybody else out, but never asks for help, becomes resented by those around them because there's no system of reciprocity where the person who's having the favor done for them can feel like the ledger is now square. \

Jay Nichol: Yep. \

Travis Bader: And that was an interesting one. That, uh, was a bit of an eye-opener for me, 'cause why would I, why would I be a burden unto somebody else? Yep. But I'll definitely be there to help them. Why would that person resent me for that in the th- in, in the long term? Well- Now, strong people usually don't, but weak people \

Jay Nichol: will. \Well, and it works in the inverse as well. You are... They've done these very interesting studies where the more you allow people to do for you, the more they love you. \

Travis Bader: That's right. Because- Which is odd. Right And is very counter to how I \

Jay Nichol: am. Very counterintuitive. And so when you don't allow your loved ones to do things for you- Mm-hmm \you're essentially robbing them- That's right ... of the opportunity to love you. \

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. \

Jay Nichol: And I think if you look at a lot of marriages, that's what's going [00:26:00] on. You have these women who are comfortable asking for things from their husband, so the husband accomplishes these things. In return, he feels this deep sense of affection and intimacy and love. \And then you have a man who never asks anything of his wife. ' \

Travis Bader: Cause he thinks that's expected. \

Jay Nichol: 100%, that's my job. \

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. \

Jay Nichol: And so she does not feel the same intensity of love and affection and intimacy towards him because of his actions of self-sufficiency. And so, uh, i- it's very problematic. Um, yeah, absolutely. \

Travis Bader: It's inter- And until you actually see it or think about it, then you'll start seeing it everywhere. \

Jay Nichol: And here's another thing, and this plays directly into hunting. I always say there are two major mistakes that I made early on in my hunting journey, um, and that I, I warn people against these. Number one was not finding a mentor. \

Travis Bader: Mm. \

Jay Nichol: I always thought, or a community to get involved in. Sure. Because I always thought if I didn't figure it out myself, it was cheating. [00:27:00] And again, this goes to this weird needed to prove things to myself, and there's part of that I would never change. Because the sense of satisfaction and the sense of growth when you finally do do it Is uncomparable. \However, I don't know if everyone has the tenacity to stick it out as ... I failed for a long time- Sure ... in a very spectacular fashion- \

Travis Bader: Sure ... \

Jay Nichol: before I finally got it, and I would not recommend that to anybody. But one of the beautiful things about mentorship is it works the same way as those relationships. \You think you're being a burden to these people, but as soon as you get that little foot in the door and ask somebody ... Like, and there's a right way and a wrong way to approach a mentor, but if you approach them appropriately, it's a very virtuous cycle that as soon as they start to help you a little bit, they get more invested in your own success. \Sure. And you are allowing them that opportu- allowing them that opportunity to help you is allowing them that sense of, of satisfaction and reward and love for you, [00:28:00] for lack of a, a better term. \

Travis Bader: Yeah. It's kind of a cheat code to life- \

Jay Nichol: Oh, 1000%. ... \

Travis Bader: provided it's not abused. \

Jay Nichol: Yes. Which, which, uh, again, we go back to this, this inherent value. \It can be used for, for positive or negative gains. Sure. But when you figure that one out, that asking for help in a certain way or allowing people to be invested in your success is how you get people to ... I think that's why podcasting works so well. \

Travis Bader: Tell me. \

Jay Nichol: I am not great ... Like, I, I just told- I'm terrible at finding mentors. \I've been terrible at finding business mentors, terrible at finding hunting mentors. Most of my connections in the hunting industry, which are numerous now, all come from the podcast. But when you ask somebody to come on your podcast, you're asking them for your help. And when you open a podcast, you don't have anything to offer them. \You're asking people who are doing you more good than you are them, because you don't have a big audience. There's not a lot they're gonna get from this. You're [00:29:00] asking them to do you a favor. \

Travis Bader: Sure. \

Jay Nichol: And that opens that door, because then they do do you the favor, then they become invested in your success. \When you post the episode, they share it to their social media. They, they, they, they become somebody that you check in with, you know, every couple of months moving forward. But for some reason, I, I find com- I, I, I, I am capable of reaching out to ask somebody I don't know to come on my podcast Because there's like this formality about it or it is just a business purpose \

Travis Bader: Well, at this point there is a sense of reciprocity. \Yeah. Now you've got an audience and- Correct ... they, they got exposure that you can provide them and- Yep ... and they've got their own audience and their own take, and it provides content and perspective and connections for you, so- \

Jay Nichol: Yep ... \

Travis Bader: yeah. It's, uh, I, I think it's an easier ask now because it's- For sure ... it's a two-way thing. \It's just like when I reach out and ask you, it's just like- \

Jay Nichol: Yeah. Oh, it's nothing ... " \

Travis Bader: Good. Come on my podcast." Yeah. And, and, you know, and even the way that I framed it, like sure, I get an awesome conversation. I get time to sit down and talk with you, [00:30:00] and I also get content that we can share out on, on online and, and, and people can see this, and I get to talk about your endeavors and, and share them out through our network and through our newsletter, which is, I think we're about 200,000, close to \

Jay Nichol: on- That's wild. \

Travis Bader: Yeah, on- \

Jay Nichol: Congratulations. \

Travis Bader: Hey, thank- \

Jay Nichol: Huge. \

Travis Bader: Yeah. Thank you. It's, uh, been a long time building, but, um- \

Jay Nichol: Yeah ... \

Travis Bader: uh- \

Jay Nichol: 15-year overnight success \

Travis Bader: 100%, yeah. Yeah, I think mine's closer to 30, but yeah. \

Jay Nichol: Yeah. \

Travis Bader: I move a little slower than most people. \

Jay Nichol: Yeah, my mother always said I was a member of the hard way to learn club. \

Travis Bader: You know what? \Maybe you and I both have that same... I don't learn from other people's mistakes. No. People say, "Don't touch the stove. It's hot. You'll burn yourself." It's like, \

Jay Nichol: well- \

Travis Bader: Well, how \

Jay Nichol: hot? Well, well- \

Travis Bader: Right ... \

Jay Nichol: let me, let \

Travis Bader: me just check How hot? And like can I do it real quick? \

Jay Nichol: Yeah. \

Travis Bader: Like how quick? And I'm going... Yes. Yeah, I can, you can steep your hand in, uh, in hot lead. \

Jay Nichol: Sure. \

Travis Bader: You ask me how I know. \

Jay Nichol: Yeah. \

Travis Bader: It's, uh... Y- you have to know where the, uh, where the boundaries are, and you constantly have to test them because when I look at what the rule system [00:31:00] is that people have in place, well, who made those rules? And are they as capable as me? Yeah. Or are they more capable than me? \Let, let me, let me push it a little. \

Jay Nichol: And I think it's important to question. \

Travis Bader: Yeah. \

Jay Nichol: Like that's a lot of the things that we're talking about too, you have to approach with nuance. \

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. \

Jay Nichol: Like the older I get, the more I realize there are no rules. There's guidelines, and those guidelines fall in different places in different circumstances. \And sometimes, you know, like I just started my reloading journey- Mm-hmm ... about nine months ago, and the internet is awash with reloading content. \

Travis Bader: Sure. \

Jay Nichol: And you could just go follow and mimic somebody else's procedure, and you're probably gonna get a fantastic result in 90% of situations. But because everything I've done has always been from this like unbiased, scientific, evidence-based approach- Mm \I'm like, I'm just gonna start testing everything that I come across because I think there are so [00:32:00] many like, uh, m- myths and fallacies that are, are just baked in. Sure. And we just do this because that's how it's been done. \

Travis Bader: Yeah, you see it in a lot of things. \

Jay Nichol: And every now and then you gotta ask yourself, "Well, why?" \And, and sometimes the answer is, "Well, because that's how you do it," and it turns out that is the way everyone- Sure ... should do it. But every now and then you come across stuff and it's like, maybe that's not the way to do it, and just because isn't a good enough answer. \

Travis Bader: Are you finding anything recently that, uh, there is a common this is how it's always been done, and you're like, "Uh-uh, my, my, my findings are separate"? \

Jay Nichol: I know some people are gonna get upset about this one, but annealing in reloading. \

Travis Bader: Uh-huh. \

Jay Nichol: I don't think it's necessary. \

Travis Bader: Interesting. \

Jay Nichol: I don't know if that's a function of ... 'Cause here's the other thing A lot of times there were good reasons for something at a point in time, and then it just became status quo, and then an underlying principle [00:33:00] changed. \That's why Elon Musk is big on this first principles approach. An underlying principle changed, and it no longer became true, but nobody went back and asked the question. Arrows are a great example. The quality and craftsmanship of, like, match grade arrows that are coming out today are insane- \

Travis Bader: Mm ... \

Jay Nichol: compared to what they were 10 years ago. \So a lot of the things people used to do for archery are no longer required. Like, it's very easy to build your own reliable arrow setup at home, and you... Like, you used to have to float the arrows in a bathtub to see which side the spine was on, because that was gonna... You needed it to nock tune to the stiff si- Like, none of that stuff, unless you're, like, Kyle Douglas or Bodhi Turner and you're shooting Vegas, these things do not matter for hunters. \Mm. Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. You can throw some [00:34:00] vanes on an arrow, put some components on the front. As long as you have, like, cut them to the same length, then they're the right spine, they're gonna function appropriately because the quality of manufacturing has changed so much. \

Travis Bader: Sure. \

Jay Nichol: To get back to reloading, I'm, I'm not sure that it's not just a, uh, a function of the quality of brass manufacturing or the different sizing techniques, and there's a lot of people that are gonna argue with me, and they, they can. \I, I'm... Like, it doesn't bother me, but annealing is a big one. I don't think it's a necessary step. Um- \

Travis Bader: You don't find the brass becomes brittle after sizing, shooting, sizing, \

Jay Nichol: shooting? I, I, I don't, and, and I think there is going to be a certain shelf life to brass no matter what- \

Travis Bader: Mm ... \

Jay Nichol: even if you anneal it. \

Travis Bader: Sure. \

Jay Nichol: And I don't think for the vast majority of hunting situations you're actually getting any more life out of your brass by annealing it, and you're just adding [00:35:00] more complexity in your setup. \

Travis Bader: I like it. Well, there's a hot take. Yeah. I love it So, uh, your scientific approach that you're taking, that's something that's, what, always been an interest of yours? \Or is that something that was kind of ingrained when you went to school and then started your, your consulting business? 'Cause I think your consulting business was really scientifically, uh, minded in your approach there, wasn't it? \

Jay Nichol: 100%. So going back to overcompensating things, so I was a high school dropout, had no grade 12 diploma, got sober at 23. \I was a gas fitter at the time, and so when I went to rehab, I stayed in the Salvation Army Treatment Center for six months, and they extended my unemployment. We called it EI where I grew up. Right. Employment insurance. \

Travis Bader: Sure. \

Jay Nichol: Um- \

Travis Bader: Yeah, for the longest time, we called it that, too. Yeah. And I think it's more UI now, right? \

Jay Nichol: I believe so, yeah. Yeah. Which does kind of make it a little bit more in s- sense, I suppose. But anyways, um- Addiction was classified as a sickness, so I got [00:36:00] extended benefits on EI. \

Travis Bader: Mm. \

Jay Nichol: So when I got out of treatment, technically I was still on EI, so I qualified for all these programs- \

Travis Bader: Mm ... \

Jay Nichol: to go get training or try and get me back in the workforce. \So the first thing I did is I went and saw a counselor, and they gave me all these tests. And, uh, the only... 'Cause it was supposed to be like, what should I do? Am I supposed to be a plumber? Am I supposed to be a fireman? Like, what tract am I supposed to go into? Is, \

Travis Bader: is, is that what the tests were? The, like, aptitude tests or just- \

Jay Nichol: Yes. \

Travis Bader: Okay. \

Jay Nichol: Yeah. \

Travis Bader: Did you find those absolutely useless? \

Jay Nichol: Oh, 100%. \

Travis Bader: Okay. Because you could basically manipulate them in to whatever direction- Yep ... you wanted, and you're like, "Oh, I want the right this what ups on this," right? \

Jay Nichol: And she comes back to me and says, "The only thing I can tell you at this point is that you need to go get more education to be even close to satisfied doing anything for the rest of your life." \

Travis Bader: Mm. \

Jay Nichol: Which was kind of like, it was very interesting to me because I'd always considered myself a crafty person, but when you've [00:37:00] been a drug addict for almost a decade, multiple overdoses, like legit dead in a hospital on a couple of different of occasions, you don't think that your powers of cognition are gonna be one of your identifying characteristics. \Sure. You know what I mean? Like you don't- Sure ... expect that you're gonna be a particularly smart individual. And you probably- Well, \

Travis Bader: it's a muscle. You can train it. \

Jay Nichol: Yep. So she's like, "You need to get more education." So I'm like, "What do I do?" And she's like, "Apply to university." \

Travis Bader: Without your high school? \

Jay Nichol: Yeah. \

Travis Bader: Okay. \

Jay Nichol: And here's another, you know, counterintuitive thought. You do not need a high school diploma to get accepted into university. \

Travis Bader: Never crossed my mind. \

Jay Nichol: Nope. No one does. \

Travis Bader: Interesting. \

Jay Nichol: They don't even... Once you're a mature student, they don't even care. Mm. They don't even ask for it. The reason why is because your performance rates and graduation rates are 10X what a high school student is. \Mm. What 18-year-old high school student do you really think gives a shit about going to university? \

Travis Bader: Most don't. \

Jay Nichol: They don't. \

Travis Bader: Most \

Jay Nichol: don't. They're there on mom and dad's dime. Sure. They're going to party on the [00:38:00] weekends. Luckily, they've maybe figure it out before the last year- Mm-hmm ... but likely they're just there to, like, waste time. \As soon as you're 23, 24, 25 and paying for it on your own, they get a completely different level of commitment from you. Sure. So they don't really care. Ivy League schools are a little bit different because they have very segmented paths- Sure ... to get into them, but 90% of our universities don't care. Hmm. \So I get accepted. I got accepted to three different universities, and I decide to go to Lakehead University in Thunder Bay because I liked the idea of being a little closer to the wilderness. It seemed like a- an adventurous spot to go live. \

Travis Bader: Did you find a draw to the wilderness at that point, or did you always have that kind of draw in the back? \Ooh. \

Jay Nichol: So this is interesting. So I mentioned these two years of hunting that I did- Right ... with my dad, and I, I never even actually remembered this until years later, but all we did... My mom and dad split when I was six. My mom was very broke. My... Back when I was a kid, they didn't even call it welfare. [00:39:00] They just called it mother's allowance. \

Travis Bader: Okay. \

Jay Nichol: And my mother's tax return, I can remember very specifically from one year when I was growing up, I was 10 or 11 years old, and she was raising me and my brother, was $12,000. \

Travis Bader: Hmm. \

Jay Nichol: Like, that's what we lived on for a year. Mm-hmm. \I totally lost my train of thought So \

Travis Bader: the draw to the wilderness. \

Jay Nichol: Right. So the only thing we did on the, on, uh, i- on summer breaks and, uh, i- i- on the weekends was go camping. \

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. \

Jay Nichol: Because you could do it cheap. \

Travis Bader: Right. Gotcha. \

Jay Nichol: Like we're throwing like hot dogs and hamburgers in a cooler with a Coleman stove, the tent in the back of a, of a minivan, and Ontario was littered with provincial parks. \And when you live in southern Ontario, it's like drive 45 minutes in any direction. And so that was all we did. And on top of that, she got really invested in interior canoeing. \

Travis Bader: Okay. \

Jay Nichol: So by the time I was 13, 14, I'd done Algonquin, I'd done Killarney. Oh, cool. We had done these like [00:40:00] family seven to 10-day interior canoeing trips, um, by the time I was a very young age. \And I didn't realize until later, I think part of my fascination with the wilderness came from a need to prove to my father, because I associated hunting and the wilderness with manliness. Being a man. Because that's what I'd always wanted to do with my dad. Mm-hmm. And I knew it was something that my dad valued because this, they looked forward to this moose hunting trip all year, every year. \So I, I wasn't conscious of this, but if I look back at my behavior now, the reason I pursued all these wilderness l- related activities, I can remember... So I tree planted during the summers of being a university student. Lots of interesting lessons there too, but I did lots of like, I became very good at it. \

Travis Bader: It's really easy work, eh? \

Jay Nichol: Oh, yeah. It's just joke. But I [00:41:00] would do these really remote contracts, and I can remember I flew home from a plant camp to go to my grandmother's funeral on my dad's side. \

Travis Bader: Hmm. \

Jay Nichol: Now, I was a high school dropout, so I failed grade nine and grade 10 math. Uh, first year calculus, I ended up getting a 99% in university, and first year physics I got a 94%. \

Travis Bader: Holy crow. \

Jay Nichol: Yeah. So- This is before \

Travis Bader: AI. \

Jay Nichol: Yep. I fly home the year after that for this funeral. Yeah. And I have these pictures, like actual developed pictures of me slinging tree box nets on the bottom of helicopters. Hmm. So you're literally like hanging onto a skid, pulling the helicopter to you, clapping the thing on, and it flies off. \

Travis Bader: Yeah. \

Jay Nichol: My dad could not care less- \

Travis Bader: Hmm ... \

Jay Nichol: about calculus and physics. \

Travis Bader: But that \

Jay Nichol: was the cool \

Travis Bader: thing. \

Jay Nichol: But he can't stop showing this picture to [00:42:00] everybody at the family- \

Travis Bader: Hmm ... \

Jay Nichol: of me in the mountains doing this rugged shit. \

Travis Bader: That's gotta make you feel good. \

Jay Nichol: I, well, and it just in- reinforces- Right ... oh, like this is what val- this is what's valuable. \That's right. That, like, smart book stuff, it's not. It's meaningless. \

Travis Bader: Now, your father- Yeah ... uh, did he go to school? \

Jay Nichol: Zero. \

Travis Bader: So that smart book stuff may have been- Yeah ... a little intimidating to him. \

Jay Nichol: Totally. \

Travis Bader: Right. Yeah. A- and it may have been something- And \

Jay Nichol: he's an entrepreneur, owned grocery stores- Sure ... his whole life. \Like, that was who he was. But I remember that, um, and then the, the next 10 years of my life is just focused on the wilderness. Like, I, I, I went and tree-planted all over the world, ran a tree-planting company in Australia, lived on Vancouver Island, lived on a boat up the Butte and the Knight Inlet. Like, it was- No \

Travis Bader: half measures, eh? \

Jay Nichol: Nope. It was just the most intense experiences I could- \

Travis Bader: I'm gonna tree plant ... I \

Jay Nichol: could get. \

Travis Bader: I'm gonna do my own business. Yeah. I'm gonna do it all over the world. \

Jay Nichol: Yeah. But I think the [00:43:00] first, the reason I went to university again was this external validation because I felt like I needed a piece of paper to say... \Plus, when you're a drug addict, when you finally sober up, you have this overwhelming sense of guilt about wasting your life. Interesting. Because you finally wake up to see the gift that you've been given of just being alive, man, and then you're like, "I've spit in the face of God." \

Travis Bader: What did it take to realize that? \

Jay Nichol: So I had many, I gue- so again, in recovery you call them moments of clarity \

Travis Bader: Heard that, yes \

Jay Nichol: My best, and I'm gonna say what I'm about to say is completely non-denominational, and I'm gonna use the word God, but I'm not talking about a big dude with a white beard. I'm just talking about a higher power behind the universe, and anybody can interpret it however- \

Travis Bader: You don't have to justify it \

Jay Nichol: they want to. Yeah. My best definition of, of a moment of clarity is that the [00:44:00] ego gets removed, however that happens, normally through pain, to the point where the voice of God comes through, and you hear a sliver of truth. And I think that in day-to-day life, our ego is this wall between us and truth and everything else that's mostly keeping it out. \And as men, and we're rewarded for ego, that's the problem. The more ego-filled I get, the more successful I get, for the most part, externally. And so the struggle is always how do I maintain my ambition and drive, but temper that with humility? Uh, and the best definition of humility I've ever come up with is an appropriate and realistic definition of who we are in this given moment, followed by the best plan to become the best person we can be And so for me in [00:45:00] recovery, it was the pain that destroyed my ego. \Because when you are finally... You just get beaten down. \

Travis Bader: Mm. \

Jay Nichol: Like, people ask me all the time, like, "Oh, I've got this cousin, he's using. What do I do?" And I'm like, "You back up out of the way, and you pray for that person to experience so much pain that they have no choice but to change." 'Cause in my experience, nothing really changes people except avoidance of pain. \You c- there is an argument to be made that reaching out towards pleasure is another reason, but nothing is as effective as like, "I just can't take this anymore." Obese people don't lose weight because they wake up with a warm fuzzy. \

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. \

Jay Nichol: They wake up, they can't move, they're crying, they feel like a piece of garbage, and they're like, "I can't take this anymore." \

Travis Bader: Pain is a powerful motivator. \

Jay Nichol: And then you give... And what happens is this beautiful thing. I can't have an ego if I'm nothing, and if I'm in [00:46:00] that much pain, and if my methods and my way have gotten me here, then that's how good they are. They're useless. And it crushes your ego. And then for a brief moment, it's gone. \

Travis Bader: So I'm gonna pause there for a second- Sure ... because, uh, you, you've heard of Eckhart Tolle? \

Jay Nichol: Yes. \

Travis Bader: Okay. I think Power of Now and all these- Yep ... other books that he's, he's written, and he talks about the death of his ego. Sure. And where he went out, I think he went to a park, he was gonna shoot himself. Yep. \Gonna kill himself. And, uh, he was overcome by a, an ego death, an existential crisis, and then bang, ego death. Now s- here's a question for somebody who's come from a life of drugs and addiction. If I understand correctly, people will, uh, chase psilocybin, ayahuasca, ibogaine, uh, sort of, um, medically induced- Sure \ego deaths. \

Jay Nichol: Yep. \

Travis Bader: Okay. Is that shortcutting the process? Is that, uh, is that saying that beware of knowledge not earned or? \

Jay Nichol: [00:47:00] So, uh, another thing the big book will talk about is that what we're searching for is a fundamental transformation of self. So when I got sober, I remember saying very clearly, "If all I ever get is me white-knuckling, not using, I'm going back out." \Like, the only thing that is good enough for me is a fundamental transformation of self, where that obsession and compulsion is lifted, and I am a new person with new motivations and a new outlook on life. Now, there are different ways to facilitate a fundamental transformation of self. And like most things in life, I don't think it's until retrospect that you can judge whether the methods you used were sufficient. \

Travis Bader: Mm. \

Jay Nichol: I am naturally cynical around most of this stuff. I'm a guy who started doing mushrooms when I was 12 years old. So this whole like, "Oh, let's microdose," it's like I got that shit [00:48:00] out of my system when I was in my teens, and I see it for what it is. Sure. It's kind of fun and you have some creative thoughts, but you are existing in an altered state of mind. \Don't kid yourself. \

Travis Bader: It's a panacea. \

Jay Nichol: 100%. However, I've heard way too many stories. I know you have some deep roots in the tactical community. I follow a lot of those guys. I know some of those guys. Some of the PTSD solutions people have found in ibogaine and other things, and this is why I'm saying there are-- There's this one book, and I can't remember I can't remember what it's called, and it's actually a fictional book about this guy who sees this shaman and he eats this peyote. \Anyways, it's, it's just another example that, that, that proves the same thing. I no longer judge the method. Mm. Like, listen, if going down to Peru and eating a bunch of ayahuasca allowed you... 'Cause remember, at [00:49:00] the beginning I said the real key to this is ruthless honesty. \

Travis Bader: Sure. \

Jay Nichol: The problem with that is that most people can't handle it. \This is what sends people home on backcountry hunts. It's not your tent. Oh, 100%. It's not your boots. It's your mind. It's not your pants. It's your mind. \

Travis Bader: Yeah. \

Jay Nichol: Because we don't have this. Watch the next time you're in the grocery store lineup. People can't go five seconds- Mm-hmm ... without a distraction before they pull the phone out of their pocket. \

Travis Bader: Got it. \

Jay Nichol: And when you're in the backcountry, you are robbed from all distractions. Mm-hmm. So the only thing you are left to confront is your own mind and your own self. You will start thinking about girls you broke up with when you were 16, and that time you stole 20 bucks from your mom's purse when you were a te- you know, like all... \And, and again, we, we also talked about making amends. The, the, the important part about that whole process is that when you admit when you did something, share it with somebody else who matters to [00:50:00] you, and then fix it, it's gone. It no longer lives inside of you and it no longer has the power to drag you down. \But all these things in your life that you did or happened to you, abuse, sexual or otherwise, that you haven't dealt with, when you are alone in the backcountry, all of that stuff comes flooding back up. \

Travis Bader: Do you find it still comes back up? \

Jay Nichol: No, because I've dealt with it. \

Travis Bader: So there's nothing \

Jay Nichol: that comes up? \But new things do. \

Travis Bader: Okay. \

Jay Nichol: And this is why I say the single most important thing to do before a backcountry hunt is clean your house, and I don't mean with Spic and Span. \

Travis Bader: Sure. \

Jay Nichol: I mean get things right with your wife. Get things right with your kids. Make sure your bills are paid. Make sure your boss is happy. \My, my process for leaving now is much different than it ever was before. I used to leave everything to the last minute. I can remember on the archery hunt in 2019 where I killed that bull that you [00:51:00] mentioned that took me seven years to kill- \

Travis Bader: Sure ... \

Jay Nichol: solo with my bow at 10,000 feet in the White Mountain wilderness in New Mexico, the day before I left that hunt, I left my wife and my daughter at my in-laws for two hours while I went to check the zero on my bow. \

Travis Bader: Mm. \

Jay Nichol: One of the stupidest things I've ever done. I get ready days before I leave now. \

Travis Bader: Mm. \

Jay Nichol: The last couple of days is nothing but my wife and my child. Take my kid out for dinner. Smart. I spend the night with my wife. I make sure she's got, like, groceries or whatever she needs ordered. Because when I leave, I want that \I am a more successful killer when I am focused on the task at hand. \

Travis Bader: That's extremely good advice. \

Jay Nichol: And anything at home that, uh, that is pulling me back or dragging at my conscience- Mm-hmm ... is taking the focus away from the task at hand. And your mind is very insidious. [00:52:00] Mm-hmm. What it's gonna do is come up with these very rational arguments- Very convincing \for why you need to leave. Yep. You're being an asshole. You're being selfish. Mm-hmm. You, your wife really wants you at home, and, like, all of that is nonsense. Like, the number of texts I get from guys that are like, "I just don't think it's fair that I ... You know, now that I've really thought about it," and I'm like, "Dude, you lost the battle of the mind before you even got in there." \Mm-hmm. None of this has ... She told you to go. By you going and not being fully present, you are being disrespectful- 100% ... to the gift that your wife gave you by saying, "I got this." \

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. " \

Jay Nichol: You go do you." Because here's the deal. If you go away and do do you, she knows you're gonna come home a better man. \

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. \

Jay Nichol: You're gonna be more present, you're gonna be more giving, you're gonna be more compassionate And so anyways, all of that goes back to say I don't have old things come up anymore. \

Travis Bader: But you'll have new things. \

Jay Nichol: New things will come up. So I mentioned that, uh, '23 and '24 were extremely challenging for me. Sure. \'Cause I was going [00:53:00] through a transition from leaving the consulting company. I knew I needed to make a business out of Mindful Hunter, but I didn't know how. I didn't wanna do the typical sponsored route. I, uh, it was dirty, it was gross. I didn't want anything to do with it. And so I knew I had this audience, I knew I was making good content, I knew I was something, doing something different and important, but I didn't know how to monetize it in a way that lived in integrity for me. \And so I was in this limbo for two years. I wasn't making as much money as I should've been. I didn't have a clear-cut sense of purpose. Um, I was going through marriage difficulties at home that were probably exacerbated by the lack of, uh, purpose that I felt, or the lack of sense of self- Sure ... or confidence that I had in myself. \Um, and so '23 and '24 were dark, and they were some of the worst backcountry... I, I, I remember the [00:54:00] summer of '24, I was on a hunt, and much like that comment I made about white-knuckling sobriety, I said to myself, "If it stays like this, I'm done 'cause this is not fun anymore." Like, it was just a mental battle. Mm. \From the moment I got... I would s- driving to the trailhead, like the moment I left my truck, I would just start to feel queasy, and I would get butterflies 'cause I knew what was gonna happen as soon as I was alone in the wilderness. \

Travis Bader: Right. The \

Jay Nichol: only thing I would be thinking about is what a failure I was, and I was just gonna think about that until I got back in the truck and went home. \

Travis Bader: So it's not something a lot of people, I think, think about, but as a guide, you see other people in the field and what they go through. \

Jay Nichol: Yep. \

Travis Bader: How common is that amongst, let's say, some of your clients? \

Jay Nichol: I think it's super common. I think the one difference is solo hunting makes it 10 times worse. \

Travis Bader: Sure. \

Jay Nichol: And that's why I think it's a bit of a red herring. \Like, everybody wants to go do it, and I'm always like... 'Cause everybody says, "Well, how do you make yourself stay [00:55:00] back there for 10 days at a time?" And I'm like, "Well, you're looking at this the wrong way." \

Travis Bader: Don't have to \

Jay Nichol: make- I gotta make myself come out now- Mm ... because of where I love it, and I wish I got more time alone than I do. \But I do think for people who haven't done this as a vocation or have a ton of experience, I think fellowship is a key piece to maintaining a certain level of, like, mental wellbeing- Mm ... while you're back there, and being okay talking to the guys you're with. Like- \

Travis Bader: What do you mean by fellowship? \

Jay Nichol: Again, sharing yourself, your story, and your person with other men. \Yeah. So one of the reasons I started Mindful Hunter Outfitting, and I'm gonna use a word here that a lot of guys are gonna, are gonna balk at, I think as a general rule we are deprived of intimate relationships with other men. \

Travis Bader: Well, I think that's why they, jujitsu's so popular. Jiu-jitsu, \

Jay Nichol: yep. \

Travis Bader: It's w- they call it what? \The ultimate hugging championship, right? Yeah. [00:56:00] Yeah. But, but it legitimizes, uh, uh, rolling around with other dudes, spending time with people, and, uh, going home and feeling like, "Okay, I guess I can, I can tell the guys about this without feeling a certain way," right? \

Jay Nichol: Well, and it's a funny example. I competed in jujitsu for many years, and there's this kind of sentiment in jujitsu that you f- you, you, you know who somebody is after you've rolled with them. \

Travis Bader: Right. \

Jay Nichol: Because you can pretend you're okay, but I feel you break. Like when we roll and I get the better of you, and there's a difference between getting tapped out and breaking. \

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. \

Jay Nichol: And when you first start, you break a lot. \

Travis Bader: Sure. \

Jay Nichol: Because you get in these... I remember one of the first, like, really powerful, uh, experiences I had, I was a newer white belt rolling with a buddy of mine who's like a four-stripe blue belt, so to me, might as well have been a black belt at the time. \Sure. And he had top mount, and I'm basically done. Mm. And he's exerting a lot of pressure, and pressure makes [00:57:00] people panic. And so I start panicking And you learn a lot about energy control in jujitsu, and the more you fight when you're in an inferior position, the more energy you expend and the more panicked you get. \Sure. And it's just this wicked downward spiral. And so he's feeling this, and he's making it worse on purpose- Sure ... to teach me a lesson, and then he lets off 10%, and he's like, "Just breathe, man." He goes, "I got nothing." I had my arms in tight. It's one of the rules you learn very early on. If you don't give them an arm, they can't take it. \

Travis Bader: Sure. \

Jay Nichol: I had my arm. Yeah, I was mounted, and he could control the situation, but he wasn't gonna tap me out, and he wasn't gonna put me to sleep. He didn't have anything until I gave him something. \

Travis Bader: Sure. \

Jay Nichol: And he's like, "Just breathe, man." And he just gave me 10%, and it was like this calm came over me, and I was like, "Holy shit, this is life." \Like, the way that I will outperform others or the way that I will truly succeed is [00:58:00] by being able to maintain a sense of calm in the face of chaos. \

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. \

Jay Nichol: And I think the only thing that really differentiates us is what level of calm are you able to create in what level of chaos? And the, the greater people become or the more successful people get, you're just raising those levels. \Like, now there's a new level, and the backcountry is the same way. Like, it takes a lot. I literally hiked me and a hunter into a forest fire the other day before we realized, "Okay, this is not a good place to be. We're gonna turn around and leave." \

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. \

Jay Nichol: It's almost a dangerous level that it takes for me now to be even remotely comfortable, uh, uncomfortab- not, not \To experience a remote level of discomfort in the backcountry. Because that level that is required for me to feel a sense of panic is so unbelievably high now. But, but back to, but in that moment, he knew who I was, right? There was an [00:59:00] intimacy there. He knew I was a man not capable of enduring what he was implementing upon me. \Mm-hmm. 'Cause I broke. Mm-hmm. I panicked. And you feel that and you know it, and, and experiencing that with another man. And we do this, dude, the conversations I have, like I'll have these Silicon Valley guys who are worth 50 mil talking about, uh, you know, ha- haven't been able to have relationships with their wife for the last six years. \Like, there's something about the wilderness. We talked about openness and vulnerability, and I think being vulnerable is the ability to share what is going on with you without being impacted by the potential ramifications. \

Travis Bader: Do you feel that quite often it gets into sort of a, um, a, a therapy session? \

Jay Nichol: 100%. \

Travis Bader: Yeah. Do you feel qualified to be able to, um, uh, to provide therapy, or do you do, do it in such a way that it's like, "Here's my [01:00:00] experiences. Here's what's worked for me"? \

Jay Nichol: So this is, this, and it's, I haven't talked about the 12-step program this much in probably the last 20 years. I actually just had, I've been sober for 18 years. \Yeah. As of August 23rd. \

Travis Bader: Okay. \

Jay Nichol: It's attraction rather than promotion. You are never supposed to go out and say, "Hey, look at me, I got so much better." Mm. Do you know what I mean? Like, "You all need to come do what I did." \

Travis Bader: Yeah, \

Jay Nichol: because it's never gonna work. "Because what you're doing is bad, and you..." No, you just live, man. \

Travis Bader: Yeah. \

Jay Nichol: And so, and then every now and then some- you will be in a position where somebody wants to hear your story. Like, if somebody has somebody on the edge and they're like, "Can you talk, come talk to them?" Very rarely has anything to do with what's going on for them. I'll just go and share what I went through. \"Here's what happened to me, man. Here's the things that happened to me as a kid. Here's the things I ended up doing because of it. This is the life I lived for a while, and this is how I got out of it." \

Travis Bader: Have you heard of the Men's Sheds initiative? [01:01:00] \

Jay Nichol: No. \

Travis Bader: So I think it started in Australia, and, uh, psychologists, psychiatrists, they said, "Well, you know, women will sit down and they'll talk about their problems face-to-face with other women." \Yeah. Men don't do that. No. But men will talk shoulder-to-shoulder. \

Jay Nichol: Okay. \

Travis Bader: Is sort of the, um, the short and long of it. So why don't we start a sheds initiative where we got a shed. Someone says, "Hey, I got this lawnmower I need to fix," and Bob's got a wrench, and Joe's got a welder. And w- what, they just get together and they work on a project shoulder-to-shoulder, but they find that now men are able to communicate. \Mm. And it's not like, "Oh, what's your problems? What's going on?" But, you know, during the process, they're able to work things through, even if they come at it from a, from a sideway or don't even address it, come from- So this is why \

Jay Nichol: walking down a logging road hunting is so successful. Got it. \

Travis Bader: You got \

Jay Nichol: it. I heard Chris Williamson talk about this the other day on his podcast, and I think it comes from something to do, when you're face-to-face with another man, it's very confrontational and tended to lead to some kind of physical [01:02:00] violence. \So it doesn't provote, promote an environment where you're comfortable being vulnerable. \

Travis Bader: Mm. \

Jay Nichol: So maybe when we turn sideways- Interesting ... now I don't feel like you're gonna attack me. It's \

Travis Bader: a good point- Yeah ... 'cause that's how we're wired. Totally. Right? Just through history. \

Jay Nichol: Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Especially once you start to get close. \

Travis Bader: Yeah, we're just \

Jay Nichol: animals. Like, women get more comfortable the closer they are. Men, it's like I, the closer I get to you, the more at risk I am of some type of physical injury. \

Travis Bader: Sure. \

Jay Nichol: Yeah. \

Travis Bader: Huh. \

Jay Nichol: So again, I don't pretend to, I don't have a bunch of answers for a bunch of people. I've been lucky enough to have a pretty intense life, and so I've got some good shory, stories to share. \And I think I might be good at asking good questions. And if, and if you can have some realizations while we're out there that lead you to some conclusions about some changes you wanna make or some things you need to do, and that's beneficial, and I had anything to do with that, great. I mean, it's certainly not the, the explicit purpose. \

Travis Bader: No. \

Jay Nichol: But I do think when [01:03:00] you spend that much time with a guy in those... There's, again, okay, so we talked about the moment of clarity, and we talked about the ego. There are multiple ways to break down the ego. One is emotional pain, the other's physical pain. I just finished a 17-kilometer pack out with a mule deer with me and my hunter You don't have a whole lot of ego left at kilometer 14- Mm-hmm \15, 16, 17. You can't. I think a lot of people are running around not having had to admit to themselves who they really are, what they're actually capable of, and what their true limits are. I \

Travis Bader: agree. \

Jay Nichol: And when we're placed in a situation where we have to confront who we really are, what we're really capable of, and what our truly true limits are, we get very honest with ourselves very quickly. \And sometimes that crushes [01:04:00] dudes, and sometimes it motivates dudes. And so I think that's the other reason, like the isolation of the wilderness, the physical trials that you're going through, all these things combine to create an environment where guys are more comfortable sharing with other guys. And I missed that. \In my, you know, journey to be this like Billy Badass of the mountains and do these crazy solo adventures, I missed it for years. \

Travis Bader: Interesting. \

Jay Nichol: And it wasn't, like the second, the first half of my journey was about me getting out and figuring out who I was and what I was capable of, and then the second half of the journey has be- has been about, okay, now how do I bring that back and be okay with myself with other men and, you know, have these group hunts with other dudes? \Because now the solo thing is easy for me. I don't have to compromise. Sure. I [01:05:00] don't have to debate. I do what I want when I want. And I realized I hid in that for a couple years. And the new challenge, okay, how do I find people I trust that I can be with in these really intense environments? And, and it, it, it provides an even more valuable or a, or a different level of, of value. \

Travis Bader: How do you find those people? \

Jay Nichol: It's hard, man. \

Travis Bader: Yeah. \

Jay Nichol: I think it's harder to find a hunting partner than it is to find a wife. \

Travis Bader: Hmm. \

Jay Nichol: It's in... A- a- and I feel like I have a handful of men in my life now that we've had a couple of experiences, but I've been bit in the ass hard. And it's one of those ones where you just gotta keep trying. \I think you can do, you need to experiment. You need to be willing to take a risk. But you can do things to protect yourself. Like, I think both of you, if it's a newer relationship, both of you should take both trucks to every trailhead every time. Yeah, in case one's not gonna go home. If there's a problem, leave. \

Travis Bader: Yeah. \

Jay Nichol: I'm gonna stay. Like, I'm not, take two stoves, take two tents. Like, create [01:06:00] an environment where you're not completely reliant. That was one of the mistakes I made. And then it's like, oh, all of a sudden when you bail, now I have to bail, and there's this whole other Level, and just be willing to keep trying. \Like, you might not... How many women did you have to date before you found your wife? Like, just recognize I might not knock this out of the park the first go around. And that was, you know, I talked about that mistake of not finding a mentor or a community. I think a lot of that can be s- solved or at least partially solved by looking for community. \Go do a sheep count with, um- Wild Sheep Society ... Wild Sheep Society. Yeah. Uh, Silvercore has some great group events. Go to a shooting event. Go do a c- a competition. They've got the 22 NRL, NRL stuff. Like, there's, there's all kinds of hunting and shooting based communities where you can just go mix it up with people. \

Travis Bader: Mm. \

Jay Nichol: And it'll be like, there'll be a guy or two that you just l- link, you know, you sync up with, and it's like, oh, we s- tend to have similar opinions about things. You're probably somebody I could go spend some time with. [01:07:00] \

Travis Bader: What do you look for when you're looking for a mentor, and what do you look for in a hunting partner? \

Jay Nichol: I still feel like I am incapable of addressing the mentor question, uh, 'cause I still continue to... I, I'm still failing at that. I don't have men in my life right now that I would consider are in that mentor role. Um- \

Travis Bader: Even in small aspects, like little places, mentor in just a business mentor or a, uh, mental health mentor or a hunting mentor or just, like, one area? \

Jay Nichol: In a simple way, I tend to look for people who've accomplished the things that I would like to accomplish. \

Travis Bader: Mm. \

Jay Nichol: And then I look to them for advice. \

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. \

Jay Nichol: Um- But yeah, and maybe the, it's funny, I, I, I talk about all this stuff, and then when I'm honest with myself about it, there's still areas where I'm failing so blatantly 'cause I don't humble myself in front of another man and [01:08:00] say, "I'd really like..." \Like, I think we need that. Maybe a lot of guys have it with their father, maybe not. I think you need that relationship with somebody where you can just be like, "I don't know what's going on. I'm not okay right now. This is what's going on for me. You got any advice?" And I don't know if I have a lot of people... \I have some friends that I'm capable of being open and honest with. But I think for the mentor, having accomplished things that you want to accomplish, and look at how they treat people. Like Are they somebody who is loved and admired because they treat people the way people deserve to be treated? \There's a lot of successful people that are jerks. \

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. \

Jay Nichol: And I might want what you have, but I don't want to be who you are. And I think the older I get, the more important... It was kind of funny. I went through this when I was in my consulting company. It was like money, money, money, money, money. Mm-hmm. I figured if the bank acco- acc- count got a certain number in it, that was [01:09:00] success. \

Travis Bader: Right. \

Jay Nichol: And then I turned 40, and I was real honest with myself, and I came to re- a realization that the variable that had the single largest impact on the satisfaction that I felt with my life was how many hours per day I spent doing things I love. \

Travis Bader: Hmm. \

Jay Nichol: And that if I looked at nothing else except how many hours today did I spend doing things I love versus how many hours I had to do things I didn't wanna do in order to facilitate the rest of my life, if the, if that number went up and the other number went down, and I don't want to say happy, because happiness is not a big goal- It's completely different \of mine. I mean, like a, a contentment and a satisfaction, like with who I am and my life. And things I love might not even be enjoyable, but I still love them. Like backcountry hunting 90% of the time is not an enjoyable experience. But \

Travis Bader: you look back- \

Jay Nichol: Oh, bro. We just finished this hunt, probably one of the craziest [01:10:00] backcountry hunts I've ever guided. \We killed a velvet mule deer and a giant cinnamon black bear inside of seven days, and it was like, went all the way to the top of one mountain, down and floated the river and the basin. Like, it was insane. When we were on our way in the home, o- on our way home in the truck, I wanted to die. I thought I was gonna puke from exhaustion. \It was ridiculous. Within 36 hours, I just want to turn around. \

Travis Bader: Right. \

Jay Nichol: Like, and this goes back to that sense of purpose. One of the things I need to be careful of with backcountry hunting is that it provides me the same singularity of existence that drug addiction does. \

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. \

Jay Nichol: Because when you wake up in your tent in the backcountry, nothing else exists. \How do I find it and kill it? That is the only thought in my head all day. Like, everything I do during that day has one decision tree. Does it get me closer to finding and killing something? \

Travis Bader: Isn't that dangerous, though? \

Jay Nichol: For you. Oh, [01:11:00] 100%. \

Travis Bader: Okay. \

Jay Nichol: Yeah. Yeah. Um, b- both from a psychological perspective, 'cause I can get lost in that. \Right. I remember when I first discovered backcountry hunting, I would come home, and I would go through like weeks to couple months of depression And my wife would be like, "Listen, man, you can go away on these trips. Like, I'll hold the fort down for two weeks, but when you come home, you gotta come home. \I'm not dealing with this shit." And it wasn't... At first I thought it was because I was being unsuccessful, but then I started being successful and the feeling was still there. \

Travis Bader: What was it then? \

Jay Nichol: I felt so in line with my purpose and who I was when I was in the mountains that I couldn't live with the fact that I hadn't created a life that created more opportunity for me to be in the mountains. \So every time I came home and went back to my day job, I felt like I was living a lie. \

Travis Bader: Sure. \

Jay Nichol: And I wasn't living up to who I really was or who I needed [01:12:00] to be to feel okay with who I was. Mm-hmm. And there's a, there's a couple different ways to approach that. I, I don't recommend everybody nuke their life the way I did and create an existence that is literally from the moment I wake up until the moment I go to bed every single day, seven days a week, 365 days a year, other than my family, the only thing that matters to me is hunting. \'Cause everything I do comes back to hunting. That's probably a little over the top for most people \

Travis Bader: Well, when that becomes the norm, that's no longer an excitement. Like, you need peaks and valleys, and you've got- Yeah ... high peaks that you go through your life- Yep ... and consequently, you're gonna have low valleys. \

Jay Nichol: Yep. \

Travis Bader: Is depression something that you have to deal with on an ongoing basis? \

Jay Nichol: Uh, this is a very interesting question, and I have always been very motivated by anger. So my cycle tends to be something will happen internally or externally derived. I will start to get depressed. [01:13:00] I recognize that I'm depressed, and it makes me very angry, 'cause I feel like it, again, is like- \

Travis Bader: What do I have to be depressed about, right? \I \

Jay Nichol: don't have a right. \

Travis Bader: Right. \

Jay Nichol: Yeah, um, that makes me angry. Anger is my fuel. That gets me to do whatever is necessary to get out of depression. \

Travis Bader: Well, angry is the acceptable emotion. \

Jay Nichol: It is for men- Right ... of course. Um, I haven't... My brother deals with depression. My wife deals with depression. I know what it's like when people deal with even a mild level of clinical depression. \That's never been an issue for me. I find it pretty easy to... And well, and here's... Now we're gonna get deep. One of the things I've always been very proud of is my ability to compartmentalize. Sure. When you are a active drug addict- \

Travis Bader: Yeah ... \

Jay Nichol: you cannot admit all the truths simultaneously. \

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. \

Jay Nichol: You'll die. If you actually woke up and confronted yourself for who you really [01:14:00] were every single day, you would just curl up into a pile and die. \Because you're a piece of shit. You're a terrible human being doing terrible things to regular people for no other reason than your own selfish gains. Mm-hmm. And that's a fact of the matter. So you become a master at putting things in boxes and being like, "Okay, here's this thing. Yeah, it's true, but we're gonna put it in this little box, and we're gonna put it over here on this shelf." \

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. " \

Jay Nichol: And when I've got time later, I'll deal with it." And my wife is always like... She's like, "I don't know how you sleep every night." Like, 'cause we'll go through, like, some crazy stressful thing, and I still to this day have an ability to be like- \

Travis Bader: Zip it, lock it, put it in your pocket. \

Jay Nichol: Here we go ... and, and I, and I know what I can do. \I know- The situations that I can have an impact on and the ones that I can't. And if I can't do anything about this right now, then worrying about it is wasted energy. \

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. \

Jay Nichol: So in a healthy way, I'm just gonna shelve this until I can do something about it. But that's the p- the, the problem [01:15:00] with that is that it, it, it, it again, has the ability to impact you in both a positive and a negative way. \Mm-hmm. So I'm sure there's still to this day some, some issues or some moments when I'm sticking things in boxes that I should not be sticking in boxes. \

Travis Bader: Well, then you're gonna go out solo hunting and- Yeah ... that box is gonna open up. Totally. \

Jay Nichol: Yeah. \

Travis Bader: You were talking about, um... Well, I got a, a few notes as I've been going through here, and you kinda fast-tracked past that mentor thing. \

Jay Nichol: Yeah. \

Travis Bader: Uh, we talked about it. You brought it up. You went through there, and then we went on to the next thing. But I gotta say, that sounds pretty lonely. \

Jay Nichol: Uh, yep. And I'd say that's my... That's probably the emotion or... You know, it's kinda funny. You ever play Dungeons & Dragons? \

Travis Bader: No, but I, I watch Stranger Things, and I got an idea- Okay \what it's about. \

Jay Nichol: I, I didn't either, but my brother did. \

Travis Bader: Sure. \

Jay Nichol: And when you're building characters in Dungeons & Dragons, you have these character traits- Yeah ... and you roll for them. \

Travis Bader: Right. \

Jay Nichol: And you can't [01:16:00] be at a 10 out of 10 in everything. Like, a mage is gonna have 10 out of 10 in magic but be very physically weak, and a warrior's gonna have 10 out of 10 in physical strength but maybe not be very smart. \And so lots of times when I think about life, I think about these sliders. Like, we have all these characteristics, and it's not possible that they're all 10 out of 10 at all moments in time. If I look at, like, the negative issues that I battle with, like, it's not depression. It's not anxiety. It's, it, there is a sense of loneliness, and I don't know how much of that is real or, or, or how much I fabricate. \Like- \

Travis Bader: I'd say it's all fabricated, uh, honestly because- Right ... you know, it's neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so. Yep. Shakespeare. But it's what is real and what's- Yeah ... your perspective of what makes that real. \

Jay Nichol: So then the question is, am I fabricating it because that's what I think I really deserve? \Like, are, is there an element of me that still thinks I'm not deserving of the love of the people around [01:17:00] me, so I don't open up or I don't ask them in, in a meaningful way? It may look like I am, but on the inside I'm still like, "I'm gonna still take care of everything." \

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. Probably. \

Jay Nichol: And if I look at the way I exist, I, that is who I am. \

Travis Bader: Right. \

Jay Nichol: In my friend group, in my marriage, in my... Like, I've been working with my... I just, uh, went out for dinner last night. I have a very hard time saying no to my daughter. \

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. \

Jay Nichol: Because that would me being a- admitting that I can't do something, and I'm not good at that as a man. And she wanted to, uh, play the impostor game at dinner while we were out for dinner. \

Travis Bader: Okay. What's that \

Jay Nichol: game? And I was tired. So you basically, you use an app to do it, but there's a word. Like, the word could be curtains. \

Travis Bader: Okay. \

Jay Nichol: Everybody at the table knows what the word is except for one person. They don't know what the word is, but they're given a hint. \

Travis Bader: Okay. \

Jay Nichol: And everybody goes around the table and says a word related to curtains, but is not curtains itself, and you have to guess who the impostor is. \And a, a good impostor picks up on the cues- \

Travis Bader: [01:18:00] Hmm ... \

Jay Nichol: and will come up with similar words. \

Travis Bader: Okay, \

Jay Nichol: that sounds fun. Yeah, it's a great dinner. Yeah. You're waiting for, you know, your burger at Cactus Club. We break out this little app, and me, my wife, and my daughter- Ah ... play the impostor game. \

Travis Bader: Okay. Yeah. \

Jay Nichol: And she wants to play it, and I said, "No, I'm tired." \And this went back and forth like three or four times, and normally I would just get mad. Hmm. Now, that's another character defect I have. \

Travis Bader: Anger. \

Jay Nichol: But it... Yeah. But instead I turned to her and I said I need you to understand that I find it hard to say no to you, 'cause I feel like I'm failing you. \

Travis Bader: Mm. \

Jay Nichol: So you've asked me three times, I've said no three times. \I'm trying to be honest with you that I'm really tired right now, I've had a very long day. I just wanna sit here with my family and, like, have a nice dinner. I don't have the extra bandwidth for, like, a game or a quiz or anything, and it's hard for me to tell you that. Sure. So when I do tell you that, she's getting old enough now, I want you to appreciate that. \[01:19:00] It's, you know, it's not you asking for a candy bar three times. Like, this is me telling you I don't have it in me to do what you need from me right now. \

Travis Bader: Well, this is a massive thing for her too- Yeah ... because what it is, is modeling behavior that she can take off in the future as well when she's not feeling great, frustrated, whatever it might be. \She's got an example of a way to proceed forward- Yeah ... and communicate. I mean, that- that's fantastic. \

Jay Nichol: Yeah. Yeah. The compromise was we played two rounds and then took a break. \

Travis Bader: Fair enough. \

Jay Nichol: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Still a dad. \

Travis Bader: Yeah, love it. You know what I mean? Love it. \

Jay Nichol: Yeah. \

Travis Bader: Um, so there's three... Pardon me. There was three different things that we were talking about before we got on here, and- Yeah \one of them was, uh, being a versatile shooter. \

Jay Nichol: Yeah. \

Travis Bader: Okay. So it's something I've talked about on the podcast here before. \

Jay Nichol: Yeah, I \

Travis Bader: bet. Had other people on here talking about, but I'd love to hear your take. \

Jay Nichol: Sure. S- one of the transformative experiences I [01:20:00] had was going to the Shoot to Hunt course. Um, and it's a five-day shooting course, takes place in Montana, runs by this guy named Form, who's, like, a bit of a shady figure on the internet, kinda e- maybe ex-forces, maybe not, you know what I'm saying? \Got \

Travis Bader: it. May- maybe Shadow Force? \

Jay Nichol: Yeah. \

Travis Bader: Okay. \

Jay Nichol: And, uh- It, it is very, you shoot 1,200 rounds in five days, primarily with a 223. \

Travis Bader: Okay. \

Jay Nichol: And it is very counterintuitive. Like, it is not your typical, "Here's how we shoot off of a bag, off of a tack table." It's not for NRL guys. Mm. It's not for PRS guys. It's how to be more lethal inside of 600 yards. \

Travis Bader: Mm. \

Jay Nichol: Like, how do we go from our rifle on a pack to laying on the ground, rifle off the pack, on the pack, butt supported, dead animal within 45 seconds? And so, you know, seating, s- [01:21:00] s- shooting standing unsupported, kneeling unsupported, sitting supported, like, you know, s- shooting off your pack, using natural obstacles. \

Travis Bader: Jeff Cooper would call those your jackass positions. \

Jay Nichol: Yeah. \

Travis Bader: Just find all these different odd, weird, awkward positions and- \

Jay Nichol: Yeah ... \

Travis Bader: practice from them. \

Jay Nichol: Totally. And under pressure. Right. Like, this is h- this is stuff that's hard to do alone because you need somebody who's gonna monitor your performance and apply some kind of pressure, whether that pressure be you need to find something, you're running out of time, you have a limited sense of a, uh, a list of equipment, whatever the case may be. \You need to apply some kind of pressure and have a limited, some type of real-world scenario present itself. \

Travis Bader: Mm. \

Jay Nichol: And what you're forced to admit when you first get there, like, it's a very boot camp-like course. The first two days is just tearing you apart. \

Travis Bader: Yeah. ' \

Jay Nichol: Cause everybody shows up and thinks they're a good shot. \

Travis Bader: Sure. \

Jay Nichol: And by the end of the first day, you're like, "Oh, I'm terrible." \

Travis Bader: Mm. " \

Jay Nichol: I'm ter- I, I have no business firing a gun [01:22:00] whatsoever." And then you slow, he brings you back. You know what I mean? \

Travis Bader: Yeah. \

Jay Nichol: Um, and it changed the way I looked at shooting, and that was happening right around the time I had guided... I was maybe two years deep into my guiding, but I hadn't guided nearly as many people as I have now. \

Travis Bader: Mm. \

Jay Nichol: And now when people call and say like, "What's the one thing?" Everybody wants to know what the one thing is. \

Travis Bader: Yeah, it's not one thing. But yeah. Yeah. What's the one thing? What can I buy? \

Jay Nichol: Yeah. And it is you need to be extremely comfortable shooting quickly- Mm ... from a variety of uncomfortable positions, no matter what happens. \

Travis Bader: Yeah. It's not all gonna be from a bench- Nope ... sitting down with bags. \

Jay Nichol: That's what's... That's the single characteristic that differentiates the people that I guide, the ones who are successful to the ones who aren't. And you can tell those guys that have practiced those weird things, and it's like you need to... \If you're gonna come to BC, you need to learn how to [01:23:00] shoot kneeling. Like, sit on your back heel, crank your elbow around, jam it into your front knee, because that's a logging road shot that you're gonna get again and again and again and again and again. Mm. And you need nothing other than your rifle and a sling to do it. \Mm-hmm. And no one, 99.99% of people, don't practice like that. Everybody wants to shoot out to 400 yards prone. \

Travis Bader: Mm. \

Jay Nichol: And that might be one of the most useless shots to be capable of doing- \

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm ... \

Jay Nichol: in a hunting scenario. The hunt I just got back from We killed two animals in seven days, gorgeous velvet buck, gorgeous cinnamon black bear. \The velvet buck was backpack in the alpine at 496 yards laying prone. Textbook. We had time, ranged it multiple times, was running the phone scope in the spotter, had the wind pegged. Like, perfect, a still animal that did not know we were there. Three days [01:24:00] later, uh, he shot a bear sub 100 yards in under 15 seconds unsupported. \

Travis Bader: Excellent. \

Jay Nichol: And that's what I'm talking about when I say versatility. Mm-hmm. Like, you need to be a guy who's capable... Like, you understand dope, you understand ballistics, you understand how to take a range and what your projectile is gonna do, and what the terminal performance of that trajecti- projectile is gonna be at different distances given distant circumstances. \You also need to be able, the guy that can just act. Be like, "That's a bear. He's headed up off the river. I have 15 seconds before that bear has gone into the woods- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm ... and I'm never gonna see him again. So it's either shoot him now or never shoot him." Mm-hmm. And you're the guy who can get on the beach, drop the pack, get on one knee, shoot the bear, done. \And we go find the bear 40 yards away. And so if people are gonna do one thing, and I highly recommend buying a 223. Go buy a Tikka T3x 223 [01:25:00] when they're on sale. In Canada, they're about 1,100 bucks when they're on sale. I know- Great \

Travis Bader: suggestion ... \

Jay Nichol: a lot of people are gonna say that's a lot. It depends how much money you want to invest. \If you wanted to go buy a cheaper one, I wouldn't argue with you, but that's a gun you're gonna own for the rest of your life, and it's gonna provide enough accuracy that you're gonna be able to see the impactor of your own training- \

Travis Bader: Mm ... \

Jay Nichol: without doing anything to it Go buy 1,000 rounds of ammo and try and shoot that at least every year. \I try and shoot 3- to 5,000 rounds every single year. \

Travis Bader: Mm. \

Jay Nichol: Obviously, I'm a little bit over the top. And then you have to practice in a variety of shooting situations, like rifle on the pack, walking down the road. Time yourself. How long does it take you to find an animal, get the rifle off, shoot it? If you have equipment... \I used to be very anti tripod and bipod. Mm. I was a big shoot off the pack guy. I still think that's fantastic. \

Travis Bader: Sure. \

Jay Nichol: Now I realize I actually don't care what tools you use, you need to [01:26:00] practice with them until you're extremely- As long as you use them ... The amount of times I've had a guy show up with a bipod and not be able to know how to extend the legs when he's going to take a shot. \

Travis Bader: Yeah, it's not good. ' \

Jay Nichol: Cause he's only opened it up three times- Right ... at the range calmly when he had lots of time. \

Travis Bader: Okay. \

Jay Nichol: And now we're on a logging road and the bear's walking away. \

Travis Bader: That old saying, "Beware of the man with one gun-" \

Jay Nichol: Right "... \

Travis Bader: knows how to use it." \

Jay Nichol: 100%. \

Travis Bader: Right. \

Jay Nichol: And so when I talk about being a versatile shooter and the one thing that I, the thing where I, people, where I think people are lacking the most amount of time... \There's this concept in, um, hypertrophy or muscle building called time under tension. \

Travis Bader: Mm. \

Jay Nichol: And it's probably the single variable that has the most impact on growing muscle. I think the same thing is true as a hunter. How much time under tension are you spending? \

Travis Bader: Mm. \

Jay Nichol: Most people don't get to hunt a whole lot. \

Travis Bader: Right. \

Jay Nichol: So we gotta find other ways to create that tension, and that's gonna be through some type of fabricated training experience. And so the more of that that you can create... Like my, one of my personal [01:27:00] goals is that I do a shooting course every single year, like a four or five-day-long one. I'll bounce around, I'll look at different ones. \I don't even r- at this point, I don't even really care so much about the course. Just time on the trigger. I know I'm gonna go there for five days, somebody's gonna beat me up, and I'm gonna get... I'm gonna put a bunch of rounds downrange under supervision. And I think the true purpose of Training is to expose your weaknesses \

Travis Bader: 100%. \

Jay Nichol: So I've got K-T-W-P tattooed on my knuckles. That stands for kill the weak parts. \

Travis Bader: Mm. \

Jay Nichol: That's my goal every single day. Expose the weak part and kill it. \

Travis Bader: Yeah, you can't, you can't kill it unless you expose it. \

Jay Nichol: 100%, \

Travis Bader: and you- And the easiest way to expose it is have a suffer- \

Jay Nichol: Yep ... \

Travis Bader: because we're really good at tricking ourselves. \

Jay Nichol: Yep. Right? And if you never actually train, you're ne- and this goes back to the ruthless honesty. One of the ways we can avoid the truth about ourselves is by not enduring experiences that will force us to acknowledge it. \

Travis Bader: [01:28:00] Mm-hmm. \

Jay Nichol: I don't think people don't train because they don't see the value in it. \They know somewhere deep inside, "If I go shoot like this- They're afraid ... I'm gonna suck. I don't want to acknowledge that I suck- Right ... so I'm just not gonna do this." Right. "And I'm gonna hope that when I get on the hunt, I get the 400 yard," or they get the 300 yard shot with lots of time. \

Travis Bader: Prone. \

Jay Nichol: Yep. \

Travis Bader: Hold on up, yeah. \

Jay Nichol: A broadside animal. Mm-hmm. Nice open meadow with no vegetation for 'em to run into. And if \

Travis Bader: they don't, it's probably their guide's fault. \

Jay Nichol: Yep. Or, or the gun was... I hear that all the time, the gun was off. \

Travis Bader: I, I remember the, uh... De Niro was in a movie, I think it was called Cement Fill or something. And anyways, they had a shooting competition and old time-y sort of... \It was set, I think it was like '30s, around there. Anyways, he couldn't hit anything, and he's like, "This gun's garbage. This is the third one I bought this year. Gonna have to get another one." But you see that, I mean, like, comical in the movie, but- \

Jay Nichol: Yeah ... \

Travis Bader: you still see it over and over again- All the time ... in individuals, yeah. \

Jay Nichol: Yeah, yeah. It's rarely the equipment, normally the user. \

Travis Bader: [01:29:00] Mm-hmm. \

Jay Nichol: Yeah. \

Travis Bader: So you're talking about, was it hy- hy- hypertrophy? \

Jay Nichol: Yeah \

Travis Bader: Hy- so that, that bleeds into physical fitness, which of course- Yeah ... was another one of the points that, uh, that you'd brought up. What are your thoughts on that? \

Jay Nichol: So I come from a competitive bodybuilding background. \Okay. And so I've spent a lot of time, I've been lifting weights since I was in my early 20s, and I sobered up. They had a small gym in the basement of that Salvation Army treatment center. I would go lift weights. Started when I was 23, I'm almost 48. In 25 years, I've had breaks, but I've never quit. \

Travis Bader: Hmm. \

Jay Nichol: I love lifting. \

Travis Bader: Hmm. \

Jay Nichol: I'm talking meathead, slang and bang iron. I put my iPod in, like bro split, like the most classic, ridiculous training you can possibly... That's my, that's what I love. \

Travis Bader: Okay. \

Jay Nichol: It does nothing for my performance as a hunter. \

Travis Bader: Hmm. \

Jay Nichol: So I had a few years there where I was trying to be a competitive bodybuilder [01:30:00] and a hunter at the same time, and I just finally had to admit to myself that, like, you gotta pick one. \

Travis Bader: Yeah, you're putting all this extra weight on your frame. \

Jay Nichol: For no reason. \

Travis Bader: For no reason \

Jay Nichol: at all. Yeah. I can remember doing a winter goat hunt in February, solo, at 272 pounds, 'cause it was my peak off-season weight. \

Travis Bader: 272 pounds? \

Jay Nichol: Yeah. I could barely walk. Holy... Uh-oh. And I had snowshoes and my pack was 93 pounds. \

Travis Bader: Is that the one where you destroyed your snowshoes? \

Jay Nichol: That is the one where I destroyed the snowshoes. Now we know why. Had 360 pounds on them things. Unreal. Um, and so I've done everything. I used to teach CrossFit, I used to compete in CrossFit, I've competed in jujitsu. Like, if there is a training modality on this planet, I have done it. \

Travis Bader: Hmm. \

Jay Nichol: And after all of this time and all of this education, there's a book called Training for the Uphill Athlete. \

Travis Bader: Okay. \

Jay Nichol: And I think it is the single most important text- Hmm ... for training for the backcountry hunter that has ever been [01:31:00] written. \

Travis Bader: Yeah. \

Jay Nichol: Um, there's a video where I kinda distill it on my YouTube channel for people, and I actually created, like, a little free PDF with, like, the highlights. \

Travis Bader: Why don't, uh, I'll put a link to that in, in this. \

Jay Nichol: Love it. I'll send it to you. \

Travis Bader: Yeah. \

Jay Nichol: The, the takeaway here, if you want me to give you, like, one thing to do, zone two rules everything. \

Travis Bader: Yeah. \

Jay Nichol: For most people, that is going to be keeping your heart rate between 135 and \

Travis Bader: 145. Yeah. \

Jay Nichol: Now, most people think the harder I train, the more fit I get. But you are not training capacity, you are training exhaustion, and you're actually creating a system called anaerobic deficiency. \

Travis Bader: Hmm. \

Jay Nichol: Cardiovascular and muscular endurance is not a function of cardiovascular throughput. It is a function of metabolic capacity. \

Travis Bader: Okay. \

Jay Nichol: The limiting factor is not how much air [01:32:00] you can get into your lungs, how much energy you can provide your muscles. \

Travis Bader: Okay. \

Jay Nichol: Most people are on primarily a glucogen-based system, glycogen-based system. \So they're burning carbs for energy. \

Travis Bader: Sure. \

Jay Nichol: We run out of that system in about 45 minutes no matter what we're doing. \

Travis Bader: Hmm. \

Jay Nichol: So you need to be fat adapted. You need to be capable of fatty acid oxidization. That does not mean being in ketosis. Completely different systems. What it means is your body is capable under certain stress levels of saying, "I am gonna prioritize burning fat." \We have an infinite, for all intents and purposes, an infinite amount of fat in our bodies- Hmm ... that we can burn forever. Um- And not run out of it. Like, that's why when you see these guys doing the carb shots, you need to take them every 45 minutes. Okay. 'Cause [01:33:00] you literally run out of it every 45 minutes. \

Travis Bader: 'Cause it's just glucose, just sugar. \

Jay Nichol: Yep, yep. Totally. Okay. When you transition to being fat adapt... And the way you do that is by training your body, and the way you train a thing is to be in a thing. So you gotta sit in zone two. As soon as you come out of zone two, fatty acid oxidization is no longer a sufficient metabolic system to provide the required energy for the task. \

Travis Bader: Okay, so what is zone two and how do I get into zone two? \

Jay Nichol: It, it is just keeping your... Again, there's very complicated... We could do a bunch of graphs. \

Travis Bader: Yeah. \

Jay Nichol: For the most part, it's keeping your heart rate between 135 \

Travis Bader: and \

Jay Nichol: 145. Okay. You should be able to breathe through, through your nose alone. \

Travis Bader: Okay. \

Jay Nichol: But just. \

Travis Bader: Okay. \

Jay Nichol: And you should just be able to hold a conversation. \

Travis Bader: Okay. \

Jay Nichol: So as soon as you get to the point where you're like, "Okay, well... " You're out of zone two. \

Travis Bader: Okay. \

Jay Nichol: I think the conversation level monitor is probably the best, like- Okay ... informal [01:34:00] metric to, to... Because people can just feel that. \

Travis Bader: Sure. \

Jay Nichol: If you want to u- And that's why I say 135 to 145. \Everybody's- For how long? ... gonna be a little bit different. As long as you can. \

Travis Bader: Okay. \

Jay Nichol: The single best way to get in it, in my opinion, is the StairMaster. \

Travis Bader: Okay. Yeah, yeah. \

Jay Nichol: Because I've put that thing at number seven, and inside of five minutes I'm at 135, and I don't go over 145 for the r- next hour. \

Travis Bader: Got it. \

Jay Nichol: Everything else you can- And not \

Travis Bader: the stair climber? \

Jay Nichol: The... I'm talking about the big mill. \

Travis Bader: Yeah. Okay, I love that thing. The \

Jay Nichol: big- That's- ... giant thing. \

Travis Bader: And nobody, nobody's on that thing. Nope. Uh, \

Jay Nichol: it's- It, it is the... If you were gonna get one piece of equipment for your house, that's the one. Yeah. 'Cause here's the other thing: that's how we hunt. \

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. \

Jay Nichol: We hike. \

Travis Bader: Yep. \

Jay Nichol: A treadmill is not a mountain. The StairMaster is a mountain. Mm-hmm. Like, we're walking up on things. \

Travis Bader: Yep. \

Jay Nichol: Like, it's a perfect replica. And- And \

Travis Bader: it gets the heart rate going. \

Jay Nichol: Yeah. And everybody, they wanna make it harder. They wanna put weight on your back. Stop. Because again- I wanna, I wanna [01:35:00] phrase this in a way that's gonna be very intuitive to people. \Right now, you have a set threshold for how hard you can work before your body is forced to switch to carbs. \

Travis Bader: Mm. \

Jay Nichol: People think that by consistently working above that level, they're gonna get more fit. No, just gonna burn more carbs. Yeah. What we need to do is take that threshold and move it up. I wanna take the amount of work you are capable of doing, or the amount of work required to get you into zone two, and I wanna make it bigger. \Like, if it was... Let's say when you start, it's level five on the StairMaster. Sure. Gets you to zone two. Let's get you to six. \

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. \

Jay Nichol: Let's get you to seven. That is increasing cardiovascular capacity, because now you can do a greater level of work with a similar level of effort. \

Travis Bader: Mm. \

Jay Nichol: And if you just sit in that zone two, you are training that metabolic [01:36:00] system in your body to burn the fat, convert that to energy, and let you sit in zone two. \Mm. And I'm telling you, it, it's boring. It's not sexy on Instagram. Nobody... It's not cool. \

Travis Bader: Sure. \

Jay Nichol: But if you could only do... Well, I guarantee right now, if you spend one hour three to five times per week in zone two for the next six months, you will be a fundamentally different human being on the mountain. \

Travis Bader: Interesting. \

Jay Nichol: I'm 48, dude. I hunt with people all year. I am crushing guys 20 years younger than me. \

Travis Bader: Mm. \

Jay Nichol: And it's all I do. All I do is the StairMaster. \

Travis Bader: You got one of those at home? \

Jay Nichol: Uh, no, but I'm putting one at the new shop. My, my ceilings are too low at home. Good \

Travis Bader: for you. \

Jay Nichol: Yeah \

Travis Bader: Yeah, I think I'm about, uh, I had the heart rate monitor on the other day. \I was 150 going 400 meters, but I'm currently sitting in AFib since, uh, August 22nd. \

Jay Nichol: Yeah, that's an intensity of a different level. \

Travis Bader: Yeah, that's, uh, that was an interesting one. I, [01:37:00] uh, have a, uh, did a... Actually, the podcast just came out today. Uh, Mark Twight, insane, awesome individual, wrote Extreme Alpinism and Kiss and- Kiss or Kill, and, uh, Special Forces would use his, uh, material to train their troops. \And I first learned about him because a buddy of mine, Jay Spidey, says, "This book that he's put out is the closest thing to what we were given for SAS pre-selection." \

Jay Nichol: Okay. " \

Travis Bader: You, you gotta read it, Trav." Anyways, Mark says, um, yeah, let's do the podcast, but in person only, and he lives in Montana. I mean, I think it was about four or five years in the process of trying to get this one coordinated, 'cause when he first said yes, it was COVID and the rest. \Anyways, I am sitting at home, getting things ready. I had- having a workout, and like, "What the hell? I feel like garbage." And I'm- had to cut it short. It was, my heart was about 157, and it just, um, wasn't feeling too good. And anyways, later on, I'm sitting down. I walk from the [01:38:00] couch over to, um, just outside playing a game of crib with my son, and I'm like, "Geez, I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna lie down on the chair sideways and get my head lower 'cause I'm gonna pass out here." \And went into the hospital on, um, Delta Hospital here. \

Jay Nichol: Okay. \

Travis Bader: Uh, day two, Sunday. I'm like, "I gotta get checked out." Anyways, I go in. Uh, at that time, I also went on Amazon 'cause, um, my first thing was like, I, how do, how do I fix this myself? And- \

Jay Nichol: Of course ... \

Travis Bader: find this little device, this Kardia with a K, and it'll give you a six-lead ECG or EKG and- Sure enough, it comes up, yeah, possible arterial fibrillation, and all right, go to the hospital. \Let's get it checked out. I'm waiting there forever. They, they... First thing they do is they hook you up, and like, "Oh yeah, you're, you're AFib." Okay. I'm waiting hours. I'm like, "Can I, can I get hooked up to telemetry? 'Cause like I feel like I'm gonna pass out, and my heart's doing some weird stuff. It might be good just to, like you got these machines. \Just, just hook me up." "Nope." "All right." Doctor's seeing other [01:39:00] people. Man, that person came in way after me, right? Okay, well, m- maybe they were more important. No, no, he just sent them on their way. Older couple beside me, talking for a while. They came in much after me. He goes and sees them, and they go in behind the curtain, and, uh, it was, uh, Dr. \Gilcrest was on his, uh, name tag there. I hear him talking. "Well, how, how come you're seeing us before him?" He says, "I got 50 minutes left on my shift. I'm not seeing the cardio vert." Oh. And I'm like, "Okay." So, excuse me, hours and hours of waiting. I'm like, "Okay, I'm getting frustrated. I'm gonna go home. I'm gonna come back, get a bit of a sleep, and see a new doctor." \Saw the new doctor the next morning, immediately gets you on telemetry. They come in, they see you. They said, "Look it, it's, it's too long. Can't do the, uh, cardio vert." Um, actually first she says, "How long has it been?" I said, "Well, I, I got a, I got it logged. I know when it happened." She's like, "Nah, 24 hours too long." \And I said, "Well, AI says [01:40:00] 48," right? So she leaves and comes back less than impressed, but, "Okay, apparently, uh, the rules have changed. It's now 48 hours." And said, "Okay, uh, let's do the cardio vert." She says, "Well, there's a stroke risk." I'm, "Okay. Yeah, let's do it." \

Jay Nichol: Yeah. \

Travis Bader: She's like, "No, no, no. This is, you got a stroke risk, meaning maybe you'll never walk again. \Maybe you'll never talk again." I said, "Well, like, what's the percentage?" "That's a really good question," she says, "But I can't tell you." What? "Okay, well, can you give me a moment? I gotta get on AI, and I gotta find out what my risk is," right? She's gone again, and like it says 5% to 7% risk. Well, actually, I asked the wrong question. \It was actually under 1% within 48 hours, and I said, "Okay, yeah, let's go ahead and do this. I'll take that 5% to 7%." She's like, "No, we're not doing it now." Okay. So anyways, I've been on, um, beta blockers and, um, an anticoagulant- For three weeks you gotta be on it. So I end up going down [01:41:00] stateside. They're like, "Don't go across the border. \Medical won't cover you." Um, but, uh, I figured I'll roll those dice. Yep. And you know what? Their, their medical system is probably gonna see me a little bit sooner. Yeah. And, um, anyways, did that. Spent a week down there. Fished through Idaho and Montana. Oh. Some of the days, like one day I was like talking to my wife, she said, "We're gonna have to turn around." \I was like, "Why?" "Well, we're out of cell range, having a hard time focusing on things and, and my face is going numb." So I, uh, maybe it's- \

Jay Nichol: Not ideal. \

Travis Bader: Yeah. I don't know what's going on. Yeah. So, um, yeah. It's, uh, the heart rate thing is one of the things, once this is all done- \

Jay Nichol: Yeah ... \

Travis Bader: um, and I get the cardiovert and got going, I'm gonna do, uh, I'm gonna look at, uh, hitting you up for some, uh- \

Jay Nichol: Yeah \

Travis Bader: for some of those programs there. \

Jay Nichol: Of course. Anytime. Yeah. \

Travis Bader: Yeah. My, uh, grandfather made it to 56, which I thought was a ripe old age before his heart exploded and, and, uh, my brother 48, and, um, ma- made it that age. Of course, 48 now, [01:42:00] so I should probably keep an eye on these things. Um, yeah, just, just this podcast here, I think there's twice I felt like I was gonna pass out. \Um, but we can fake- Well, \

Jay Nichol: thanks for staying with me and- ... not passing out. \

Travis Bader: We can fake it till we make it, right? There \

Jay Nichol: we go. \

Travis Bader: Um, can't shortcut time in field, so I wrote that down. \

Jay Nichol: Yeah. I- did you ever see the movie Lawnmower Man, like way back in the day? \

Travis Bader: Long time ago, yeah. \

Jay Nichol: So in this movie, they had this way to, like, basically stick a needle in the back of a guy's head, like a port- \

Travis Bader: Hmm \

Jay Nichol: and they could just download information to him. It's, it was actually based off of a, a Stephen King short story. \

Travis Bader: Right. \

Jay Nichol: And I always thought about that movie when the internet started growing, 'cause that's kinda like what YouTube is. \

Travis Bader: It- It's \a \

Travis Bader: shortcut ... \

Jay Nichol: like, like it's a way to just fire hose information about any topic on earth that you want. \

Travis Bader: Yeah. \

Jay Nichol: And I [01:43:00] think, for the most part, it creates an illusion of learning. There's a big difference between knowledge transfer and skill development. \

Travis Bader: Sure. \

Jay Nichol: And you don't execute the same tasks to accomplish both of those things. You can transfer a lot of knowledge through books and talking and videos. You develop almost zero skills from watching a video, reading a book, or listening to a lecture. \And I think in today's day and age, people confuse the illu- the illusion of learning with the reality of skill development. \

Travis Bader: I agree. \

Jay Nichol: And, oh, it's almost like the smarter you are, the worse you suffer from this. \

Travis Bader: Yeah, and there's also a fear of being exposed as a fraud, so they- Yep ... won't double down on their skill development because they should know. \Yep. At least that's what they think. \

Jay Nichol: And if you asked somebody, said, "Listen, here's a spreadsheet. You tell me you love hunting. I want you to walk through your year, and, and I'm gonna give you a couple different [01:44:00] categories like, uh, scouting, shooting, watching YouTube, and I want you to tell me how many hours you're doing each of these things every year," the overwhelming percent of it is gonna be training in the gym, shooting ineffectively- Hmm \like going to the archery range and shooting 50 arrows standing 40 yards from the target on a non-windy day. Like, that teaches us nothing about how to actually kill an animal. And it's gonna be watching YouTube and listening to podcasts, is like 90% of what they're doing, and then they go on a single 10-day hunt once a year that they didn't even scout for. \Mm-hmm. And then they come home without nothing, and they go, "This doesn't make any sense. I spent all year researching gear, buying things, listening to podcasts, reading books. Why didn't I-" \

Travis Bader: E-scouting. \

Jay Nichol: Yeah. Yeah. E-scouting. Why didn't I kill anything? And it's like, 'cause you spent no time in the field. Uh, about three [01:45:00] years ago, I went through, like, a significant shift in how successful I was. \And I'm not saying this to be arrogant, but I'm at a point in my life now where if I don't come home with something, something went wrong. I failed somewhere. And I'm a- I'm also a, a... I'm gonna take a slight digression here There is a big difference between acknowledging a failure and being a failure. \

Travis Bader: Sure, yeah. \

Jay Nichol: And I'm a huge proponent of acknowledging failure. Like, I think when you come home from a hunt and nothing died, you need to sit down and examine why. And people are like, "Well, I had a great time, and we saw some new country." And it's like, no, you failed. Wasn't a camping trip. \

Travis Bader: Mm. \

Jay Nichol: You know? Wasn't a therapy session. \Your goal was to go out there- Wasn't a, wasn't a psych- you were, you had a tag in your pocket. Before you left, you were convinced something was gonna die. So if you get home and nothing died, what went [01:46:00] wrong? And I'm gonna fill you in. 99% of the time you went wrong. Yeah. You failed. You did not do something right somewhere along the way, and normally it was way before the hunt. \

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. \

Jay Nichol: The lack of scouting that people do is staggering to me. Sure. And I think sheep hunting is a big problem with this because everybody's so enamored with these big backcountry sheep hunts, but, like, nobody's driving up there to scout- Mm ... early. It's, it's, it's all they can do to get a week off in August or September to actually do the hunt. \Mm-hmm. I get it. I also-- people chase tags. They chase draw tags. They chase premium units in the States. They get the... They think that if they get the right tag they'll be able to kill something. And it's like we both live in the lower mainland. There's plenty of deer within two hours from both of our homes. \

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. \

Jay Nichol: And I finally just said, "I'm not gonna..." There's this, like, unicorn [01:47:00] my-mythology that, like, I'm gonna find some secret place or somebody's gonna give me some secret piece of information. It's like business. Mm. It does not exist. That's right. Just consistency exists. And so, and it was, it was a chicken and egg thing. \I did not decide to start spending an exorbitant amount of time in the field so I could kill things. I was just lucky that because of what I created my job to be, testing gear at the time and then later guiding, I had no choice. I had to spend time in the field to do my job. And then retrospectively, again, we've mentioned this multiple times during the podcast, I look back and I'm like, "Oh my God. \Why is all this stuff dying? Why am I... What happened?" The only thing that changed is that I started hunting the same areas again and again and again. \

Travis Bader: You get very familiar- \

Jay Nichol: Yep ... \

Travis Bader: with the movements, with the terrain, with the flora, fauna, all the rest. \

Jay Nichol: Yeah. I'm gonna-- I was on this mule deer hunt. [01:48:00] I had scouted. \I knew there was mule deer on a particular hill. I knew there was gonna be good bucks. We showed up at 2:30 in the afternoon, glassed for a couple hours, nothing. Had a nap, woke up around 5:00, had some food, glassed again from 6:00 to 8:00, nothing. Next morning, get up, it's dark. Glass until 6:30, nothing. By 6:45, I see my first buck. \Between 6:45 and 8:30 AM, I see 36 deer. \

Travis Bader: Hmm. \

Jay Nichol: 18 of them bucks, five of them shooters. By 8:45 AM, hill is clean. Hmm. And from 8:45 AM until almost before dark that night, I do not see a single other deer on that hill. So if you didn't happen to be sitting in front of that hill for that single hour and 45-minute period- \

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm \

Jay Nichol: you would think- \

Travis Bader: There's no deer ... \

Jay Nichol: there's no deer. \

Travis Bader: Yeah. \

Jay Nichol: And what you realize from guiding an area, when you're driving the same [01:49:00] logging roads and passing the same areas at different times of day again and again and again, you start to realize it's like, oh, there's pockets. And the only way to find these pockets, it's not e-scouting because they'll have the same food sources, they'll have the same aspect, they'll have the same cut blocks. \Some hills hold critters, some hills don't. The best explanation I've had is listening to this biologist who said animals do not suffer from curiosity the way human beings do. They don't look at that hill over there and think, "I wonder if it's nice over there." They think, "What, where I am right now is providing me what I need, so I have no reason to go anywhere else." \And until pressure or lack of resources or snow forces that animal from that area, they're never gonna leave. And so I just think some hills haven't had animals forced to go on them yet And the only way you find those pockets is just by being in the area again and again and [01:50:00] again. Yeah. And it's like, I say to people all the time, they're like, "Oh, I've got $2,000 to buy a spotting scope. \What should I buy?" I'll be like, "How many animals did you kill last year?" "Well, nothing." I said, "So what you're gonna do is you're gonna take that $2,000 and you're gonna give it to your wife, and you're gonna say, 'This is to pay for the six or seven unpaid days I'm gonna take off work this year- \

Travis Bader: Mm ... \

Jay Nichol: so that I can spend more time becoming a better hunter,' in addition to the up to vacation time that's already paid for during hunting season. \And you're gonna split that up over three weekends, and you're gonna go pre-scout whatever area it is, because those three weekends of scouting is gonna- \

Travis Bader: Massive ... \

Jay Nichol: way more- \

Travis Bader: Yeah ... \

Jay Nichol: than any spotting scope on the planet- \

Travis Bader: Massive ... \

Jay Nichol: will do for you." Um, and I just think, like, if you took those three things, becoming a versatile shooter, spending as much time in zone two as you can, and getting out in the field as much as is reasonable given your commitments, and you just said like, "For the next [01:51:00] 12 months, those are the three things that when I have extra time, money, or resources, I'm... \Those are the three buckets, and I'm gonna put it into one of those buckets," I guarantee- \

Travis Bader: Dividends ... \

Jay Nichol: you will kill more critters. Yeah. Like, it's just, you can't not. But, but, uh, but the market and the industry that we live in doesn't sell more products off of those three things. 100%. So no one talks about them 'cause they're not paid to talk about them. \

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. \

Jay Nichol: Yeah. \

Travis Bader: Yeah, you see that a lot. \

Jay Nichol: A lot. \

Travis Bader: Yeah, the, uh... And then of course, the mental side. Right. And I think your, your physicality is gonna help the mental side. The, um, the discipline of being a versatile shooter will build confidence, which is gonna help the mental side, and the time in the field, all of a sudden you've got confidence. \

Jay Nichol: Yeah. \

Travis Bader: And you just, all of those three things together will help shortcut that mental breakdown that so many people end up having in the field. \

Jay Nichol: 100%. \

Travis Bader: So you took a bit of a leap from [01:52:00] Mindful Hunter to Mindful Munitions. \

Jay Nichol: Yeah. \

Travis Bader: Tell me about this, 'cause I'm, I'm super curious about it. \

Jay Nichol: So right now as it stands, Mindful Hunter is the parent brand. \

Travis Bader: Okay. \

Jay Nichol: And under Mindful Hunter, we have Mindful Hunter content, we have Mindful Reviews, which is about to undergo a rebirth into, um, uh, Mindful Hunter Base Camp. We can get into that later. Uh, we have Mindful Hunter Outfitting, Forged in the Backcountry, and Mindful Munitions. \

Travis Bader: Mm. \

Jay Nichol: So let's start at the beginning. \The first thing that I actually created was Forged in the Backcountry. \

Travis Bader: Right. \

Jay Nichol: And I just, I thought it would be cool... I ca- I used to be a DJ. \

Travis Bader: Really? \

Jay Nichol: Yeah. Okay. And I st- I got my start in the hip hop scene. Okay. Like scratch battles, all that kinda stuff when I was in university. That's awesome. And so I knew a lot about hip hop culture, especially like streetwear. \Mm. Like Supreme, LRG, [01:53:00] all this kinda stuff, and I always found it interesting that there was... Unless you wanted to, like, wear brand wear or some type of influencer swag, there was no way to signal, "I'm a backcountry hunter." So I just wanted to create a T-shirt brand that would have, like, cool logos and allow people to wear a piece of clothing that would signal, "I'm a backcountry hunter," without wearing Sitka or KUIU- Right \or a Born and Raised Outdoors hat. \

Travis Bader: Right. \

Jay Nichol: And kinda flopped. \

Travis Bader: Why? \

Jay Nichol: You know, I don't know. I'm still confused by it. \

Travis Bader: Okay. \

Jay Nichol: To be honest with you- Yeah ... I think I may have overshot the aesthetic- ... of the Common Hunter. \

Travis Bader: Okay, fair enough. \

Jay Nichol: You know? Maybe it just, I just, the designs just didn't hit. Mm. But I'm a big Jim Collins fan. \Mm. And, like, the idea of failing fast, failing early, and taking notes, and pivoting. Yeah. Like, business is [01:54:00] just about creating an MVP and iterating as much as possible with as cus- as much customer discovery as possible until you find product market fit. Mm. Then you pour gas on the fire. And so don't... Be okay with killing your darlings, right? \Mm-hmm. No idea is too precious to not kill. So what happened was I actually went to create a hat, because I had this hat I loved. They stopped making it, so I went to create a, a waterproof, full-backed ball cap- Okay ... that I could wear in the rain that wouldn't show sweat stains. Those were, like, the three things that I was trying to accomplish, and in the process of creating this hat, I r- I got put in touch with an apparel manufacturer that was gonna allow me to make custom boxers. \One of the companies that I did a ton of consulting f- for when I owned my consulting company was Lululemon, and I worked with their merchandising team a lot. So I had this weird... And that's the fun thing about consulting, is that you become an expert in, like, a billion things that [01:55:00] you never cared about. \

Travis Bader: Sure. \

Jay Nichol: And so I knew a lot about apparel manufacturing, and I knew that nobody was making the boxers I wanted to wear for backcountry hunts- \

Travis Bader: Okay ... \

Jay Nichol: that were synthetic, not synthetic, that were not merino- \

Travis Bader: Mm ... \

Jay Nichol: would dry fast, would retain shape, and were extremely comfortable and supportive over a six to seven-day hunt. \

Travis Bader: Right. \

Jay Nichol: And so it was almost an accident that I made the boxers. Short cut, make the boxers, they blow up. Then this year I come out with socks. Socks end up being 10 times more popular than boxers. \

Travis Bader: Yeah, and a massive market for them, too. \

Jay Nichol: Huge. \

Travis Bader: Yeah. \

Jay Nichol: And so r- mid-November we've got coming, in addition to the crew socks and the boxers that are now there, the newer version of the boxers will be dropping. \I'm at the scale now where I can mill all my own custom fabric overseas. So I get to choose the materials, I get to choose the widths, the sizes. Like- Good for you ... it's wild. It's- \

Travis Bader: Yeah. \

Jay Nichol: Yeah. It's been a [01:56:00] long road. \

Travis Bader: Overnight success. \

Jay Nichol: No, exactly. Good for \

Travis Bader: you. \

Jay Nichol: Ankle socks are coming for the gym, and I've got a heavyweight winter over-the-calf version. \Those will all drop mid-November. That's Foraged In The Backcountry. For anybody who's curious, forgedinthebackcountry.com. Also, small plug, I'm giving away a Kowa 88 spotter. \

Travis Bader: Sweet. \

Jay Nichol: So every five bucks you spend at Foraged will get you one entry to win. Now, after Foraged, shortly after Foraged, I ended up getting an opportunity to buy an outfitting area in Alberta, and we could do an entire podcast on the lessons learned from outfitting. \But long story short, I now own an outfitting area in Alberta for archery mule deer and white tail. An outfitting area in British Columbia where I guide for black bear, mule deer, and mountain goats, and I have three ranches that I lease in Mexico where I guide for coues deer. \

Travis Bader: And if people wanna come on a guided hunt here, how would they [01:57:00] do that? \

Jay Nichol: [email protected]. \

Travis Bader: Perfect. \

Jay Nichol: Website to be built this off-season. You gotta love when your business is too busy being a business- Mm-hmm ... to actually build a website for the business. Hey, \

Travis Bader: that's okay. \

Jay Nichol: Yeah, it's okay. So then I launched Mindful Hunter, and I told you about that s- or sorry, Mindful Hunter Outfitting is the outfitting. \

Travis Bader: Right. \

Jay Nichol: And the boxers and everything had been doing okay, but they still weren't, like, retirement level success. Do you know what I mean? \

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. \

Jay Nichol: What happened with the outfitting is that it lent credibility to the entire ecosystem. \

Travis Bader: Interesting. It builds a moat around the entire thing- Yeah ... where other people can't come in and just copy your design because they don't have the, the background. \

Jay Nichol: Yeah. Well, and Jim Collins has this concept of a flywheel. Like every- Mm-hmm ... good business should have an inherent flywheel. \

Travis Bader: He was good to great, right? \

Jay Nichol: 100%. \

Travis Bader: Yeah. \

Jay Nichol: And so the concept of a business flywheel is that it is this device that you don't have to keep putting new energy or new capital in. [01:58:00] In my world, it's my reviews. \'Cause the more reviews I put out on YouTube, the bigger my audience gets, the more people who participate in my ecosystem. Now, with guiding, that created more opportunity to review gear. With the credibility comes more companies that wanna send you more stuff, free of any obligation to s- Like, I'm very clear with people. \Like- Mm-hmm ... I could tear this apart. And so now the whole thing is just on this self-sufficient circle. \

Travis Bader: Good for you. \

Jay Nichol: More gear, more reviews, more clients, more outfitting. And then what happened, I became obsessed with shooting. \

Travis Bader: I love to see that, by the way. That's, that's really- Thank you ... yeah. \

Jay Nichol: And again, it all comes back... \And here's the thing, when I was 40, I said, "I'm gonna stop caring about money, and I'm gonna start just spending more hours per day doing the things I love." Eight years later, I'm making more money than I ever did doing anything in any of my other careers. \

Travis Bader: Because? \

Jay Nichol: Because [01:59:00] I focused more time spending things I, spending time doing things I love. \

Travis Bader: That's something I preached over and over on this podcast, that- Yeah ... money is a natural byproduct of the service, the quality of the service or product that you provide. Yeah. So if you love it, you're gonna put more in. Just like you said, you're not gonna outwork the person- Who's playing ... who loves to do it. \Nope. Who's playing. \

Jay Nichol: And listen, I, I do think there's lots of room. Like, if you want my real advice for most people, get a good trade and create a life that will allow you to have the freedom to do the things you love while making good money, and then you, you can transition that into all kinds of other things. \I don't think everybody needs to go be a hunting creator just to spend time doing things they love. There's a lot of other very realistic ways to do that. \

Travis Bader: Yeah, but the same principle applies. \

Jay Nichol: 100%. \

Travis Bader: Both for money and for happiness. Yep, yep. Happiness will be a byproduct of- Progressing after a worthy ideal, something that you find worthy. \If you try and seek the happiness, it's always gonna be in front of you. You're always gonna be behind it. If you try and seek the money, my experience, [02:00:00] you're always gonna be behind it. \

Jay Nichol: Yeah, I agree. So then I become obsessed with shooting, and I instantly have to confront the fact that w- as with all gear, getting most stuff in Canada sucks. \

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. \

Jay Nichol: It's hard to get things across the border. There's a bunch of duties that get inappropriately applied. \

Travis Bader: Yeah. \

Jay Nichol: Shipping takes forever. It's a nightmare. And I'd always toyed with the idea of doing some kind of Canadian distribution, but because the unbiased reviews were such a hallmark of what I was doing, I never wanted to sacrifice that. \Finally, I got to the point where it's like, I've been doing this 10 years. Again, external validation, I don't need to prove the level of integrity I have to anybody else. And I was lucky enough that after doing this for all these years, I have all these phenomenal connections. \

Travis Bader: Yeah. \

Jay Nichol: And I've built these relationships with other men who own other businesses that trust me and know I have integrity because of the way I've conducted myself over the years So then starting almost [02:01:00] a year ago, I start formulating all these deals with companies like Unknown Munitions, EXO, uh, Backpacks, Full Frame Outdoors, Wiser Precision, AZAC, Salmon River Solutions, and come up with this concept to launch Mindful Munitions. \

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. \

Jay Nichol: Now, the goal is not to be a Europtic- Mm-hmm ... or a Cabela's. \

Travis Bader: Sure. \

Jay Nichol: I don't plan to be an exhaustive gear shop. The idea was to provide a concierge-level service to a niche demographic. \

Travis Bader: Mm. \

Jay Nichol: And if I have told people for years, "Listen, this is the gear I trust, this is the gear I use," why don't we take that gear and get it into Canada at an affordable rate and make it accessible for Canadians? \And you can now assume if it's on the store, it has my stamp of approval. Now, just because it's not doesn't mean it doesn't have my [02:02:00] stamp of approval, but I'm telling you, if you're looking for a tripod and you go on my site and you see a tripod is available, I'm telling you you can trust that tripod. \

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. \

Jay Nichol: And if you want to ask a question, you can phone or email and a hunter with over a decade of experience is gonna answer your question. Mm. It's not gonna be some 16-year-old pimple-faced kid that doesn't really... You remember when Home Depot first opened? \

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. \

Jay Nichol: And they had, like, plumbers working in the plumbing department. \Mm-hmm. And it was world-changing. We were blown away. \

Travis Bader: Yeah. \

Jay Nichol: And then somewhere over the last 10, 15 years, that just- \

Travis Bader: Completely gone ... \

Jay Nichol: they don't even know where the light bulbs are anymore. Like, it's wild. \

Travis Bader: Yep. \

Jay Nichol: Well, that's the kind of... That's what Mindful Munitions, like, the North Star that Mindful Munitions was built about, and we have a bunch of different phases. \Like, I'm still waiting for my business firearms license, but then we're gonna get into gun building. Eventually, we wanna get into custom ammo making. \

Travis Bader: How long have you been waiting on the BFL? \

Jay Nichol: I'm just waiting on my [02:03:00] site inspection right now. \

Travis Bader: Okay. \

Jay Nichol: And I'm in conversations with them, and I still have a thing or two that needs to be finished up at the shop, so the fact they haven't called, I'm kinda okay with. \

Travis Bader: Fair \

Jay Nichol: enough. They've actually been very good to communicate with. \

Travis Bader: Yeah. \

Jay Nichol: Not particularly- \

Travis Bader: Not speedy ... \

Jay Nichol: expeditious. No. No. \

Travis Bader: No. \

Jay Nichol: But I, I write an email, they get back to me. Yep. And they're like, "Yeah, couple weeks, we'll get back to you." So I, I g- I'll give them some credit there. \

Travis Bader: Yep. \

Jay Nichol: And there was a weird hang-up. \Apparently, the way I filled out some form created, like, a, a difference in charge of, like, $6. \

Travis Bader: Yeah. \

Jay Nichol: And so my account was just hanging up 'cause I'd paid 284 and not 292 or some weird- Mm-hmm. And they were like, "Oh yeah, if you just pay this $8 or $6 by credit card, we'll push your-" \

Travis Bader: Like, of \

Jay Nichol: course. "... app." I'm like- I'll be very- \"Oh, great. You couldn't have called?" Yeah. You know? Like, anyways So that's Mindful Munitions. Now for the Canadians, I'm actually giving away the exact same spotting scope. So for every five bucks you spend at Mindful Munitions, you also get one entry to win the Cowa 88 spotting scope. \

Travis Bader: It's an amazing spotting scope. \

Jay Nichol: I- in my opinion, it's the best [02:04:00] spotting scope you can buy for, for backcountry hunting. Some people might argue you could get away with a smaller one. \

Travis Bader: Mm. \

Jay Nichol: I would prefer to carry a little bit extra weight and have a little bit more viewing capabilities. \

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. \

Jay Nichol: But I am ... I might be more passionate about... Not that I'm more passionate about any one of these endeavors, but you're always thinking about scale. \You know, like if you asked me wh- funny, this whole conversation started with me kind of w- w- what is Mindful Hunter? Why did you start Mindful Hunter? \

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. \

Jay Nichol: Backcountry hunting allowed me to feel okay about myself as a man and to learn who I am as a man. Everything I have done with Mindful Hunter, I didn't even realize it at the time- \

Travis Bader: To \

Jay Nichol: share that experience for others \was just to help other men experience the same impact. \

Travis Bader: Mm. \

Jay Nichol: And I'm not saying I'm exclusive of women, but I, and I think in a [02:05:00] lot of ways there's lots of women voices out there to help. My main priority is men. Mm-hmm. And I think a lot of men could benefit from learning more about who they are by spending time in the backcountry. \And if you look at everything that exists in the ecosystem, in some way, shape, or to- or, or form, it's to help facilitate that. Now, the guiding is the pinnacle experience. That's where we're gonna go in there together, but Mindful Munitions is about outfitting you for that experience in a way that's effective and efficient. \Mm. Like, you don't have to buy the wrong thing three times to finally end up in the right thing. Sure. But if there's a North Star that drives this entire engine, it's like in today's society with all the things that we're struggling with internally, externally, family, work, society, how can the products and services that I create and the content that I share help more men get out into the backcountry and experience more success when they're [02:06:00] out there? \

Travis Bader: It's beautiful. That's a thing of beauty. Is there anything that we haven't talked about that we should be talking about? \

Jay Nichol: Uh, that's a phenomenal question, and I'm sure there's a worthwhile answer in there somewhere. \

Travis Bader: It'll happen when we press stop. \

Jay Nichol: 100%. But nothing, nothing springs to mind. One of the unfortunate drawbacks of being unsponsored is that I'm not a guy who gets invited on a lot of podcasts because I have a, a lot of strong opinions about a lot of creators and about a lot of podcasts, or a lot of, uh, creators and a lot of companies. \Mm. And most all of our industry c- is created through sponsorship, and as soon as you start calling people out for just lying on YouTube, there's a lot of guilty consciences floating around out there. So I think the one thing I want to express is I really appreciate you having me on. The thing that I think is funny, I don't think there's that much overlap between the Mindful... \Even though we're [02:07:00] both kinda doing similar things with similar goals of helping people spend time doing the things they love and becoming better- \

Travis Bader: Mm \

Jay Nichol: I don't think there's that much overlap between our Venn diagrams. So I was really excited for the opportunity to, to come on here, um, and have... Just 'cause I knew it would be a good conversation, for starters. \

Travis Bader: Oh, it's \

Jay Nichol: been amazing \

Travis Bader: conversation. \

Jay Nichol: Um, and just e- the exposure to your audience and all that stuff. Uh, you've done a lot of good for, uh, people in British Columbia and, and the industry itself, so deeply appreciate the opportunity to come on and chat. \

Travis Bader: Well, I appreciate that, and I also got a little something something here for you. \Oh. Look at this. Um- Okay ... uh, so do you carry optics with- \

Jay Nichol: I, I do not carry optics yet. \

Travis Bader: Well, I might have to make an introduction. My buddy- Okay ... Trevor over at ATI- Yep ... and they make tangent theta scopes which- \

Jay Nichol: Okay ... \

Travis Bader: so I, I did a podcast with an optical engineer by the name of Ilya Koshkin, and he calls himself- Well \

Jay Nichol: done \

Travis Bader: yeah, [02:08:00] the, the Dark Lord of Optics. \

Jay Nichol: Okay. \

Travis Bader: And he's like you, but Russian, and he's brutally honest, and he will- As \

Jay Nichol: most Russians are. \

Travis Bader: Yes, and he will rip apart, uh, optics because he knows them from an optical engineer standpoint, and he works on military grade, high-level stuff, and he says, "Trev, you know the best optics, best clarity you can find in the world? \It's Canadian." Like, "What are you talking about?" Never even heard of them. Armament technology. So I had to go over to, uh, Nova Scotia and do a podcast with, uh, ATI there, and they got tangent theta scopes, which are just top shelf, best of the best. Uh, and then they also realize that there's gonna be people out there that don't have $8,000 to drop on a scope. \

Jay Nichol: Yep. \

Travis Bader: And, uh, they've got their SAI line, and their SAI line, same company, same quality, same all the rest. \

Jay Nichol: Toyota and Lexus. \

Travis Bader: Same thing, right? Uh, anyways, they, they came out with these, uh, these red dots, and I... Do you... [02:09:00] Have you ever done turkey hunting? \

Jay Nichol: I have not. \

Travis Bader: Okay. So I, I can see this being on a, uh, a shotgun or very close range, uh, you know, for bear hunting, red dot speed. \Here you go. Mm-hmm. Give that guy a checkout, my buddy Trevor over at, uh, ATI. \

Jay Nichol: Thank you very much. Um- I deeply appreciate it. \

Travis Bader: Yeah, and- That's \

Jay Nichol: great ... \

Travis Bader: and, uh, torture test it. Put it, put it through its paces and see what you can do, and if, uh, if you want the intro there, I'll, uh, I'll do the intro and see if it's a good fit for, uh, for Mindful Media, should say. \

Jay Nichol: Well, thank you very much. I, I do. I greatly appreciate that. \

Travis Bader: Thank you so much for being on the Silvercore Podcast. \

Jay Nichol: My pleasure.