About this episode

BC's Firearm Violence Prevention Act took effect October 1, 2026, and Blair Hagen of Canada's National Firearms Association warns that most licensed owners have not read it. Under the act, paying a ticket for a minor infraction, such as an expired licence or a trigger lock that came off, counts as a guilty plea, and that plea can support a firearms prohibition and forfeiture of what was seized. On this Silvercore Podcast episode, Hagen returns to break it down, explain why he calls the SKS the Winchester 94 of today and believes it is the next target, and lay out what gun owners can do before the October 24 provincial election.

Travis Bader walks through how federal, provincial and municipal rules stack, and where air guns and airsoft fit.

Hagen gives his assessment of where BC's parties stand on firearms (every party leader was invited onto the show), breaks down the Supreme Court of Canada challenge to the 2020 Orders in Council, and explains why he thinks a win in court will take years to play out.

The second half turns to what one person can do. Travis makes the case that courts and politics only go so far, and that lasting change comes from culture: gun clubs, range days, a Canadian Schützenfest, and ordinary people using AI tools to research an issue and write to their MLA and MP with consistency. Hagen makes the case for joining whichever political party fits you and changing it from the inside.

Topics covered:

- What BC's Firearm Violence Prevention Act could mean for a licensed owner who pays a fine

- How federal, provincial and municipal firearms rules stack

- Two armed robberies behind a gun counter, and whether banning one make and model would have changed anything

- Where BC's parties stand on firearms, in Hagen's view

- Saskatchewan's answer to central storage: your own house

- Steel manning the case for gun bans, and firearms as a symbol of competency

- Why the SKS has become the next symbol in the debate

- The Supreme Court challenge to the 2020 Orders in Council

- Joining a political party and changing it from the inside

- Using AI to research an issue and write to your representatives

- Courts, politics and culture, and a Schützenfest for Canada

One rifle, one new law, and what one person can do about either.

Blair first joined the show on episode 188.

What BC's Firearm Violence Prevention Act actually changes:

Learn more about Canada's National Firearms Association:

Chapters

00:00 Intro, and a magazine publisher runs for council

03:14 BC's new Firearm Violence Prevention Act

05:39 Why licensed owners feel targeted

10:51 Two armed robberies and the make and model question

12:57 Small infractions under the new act

14:31 Federal, provincial and municipal rules, and air guns

18:56 Why property rights matter to people who don't own guns

21:48 Fear sells

28:48 The provincial election and every leader invited

32:33 Where the parties stand, in Hagen's view

40:03 Central storage, and Saskatchewan's answer

45:46 The debate reopens

48:19 The SKS as a symbol

49:25 Saturday night specials and banning what is registered

52:38 Steel manning the case for bans

56:29 Firearms and the fear of competency

59:40 Grandfathered, yet called too dangerous

1:00:54 A new SKS order, and the Winchester 94 of today

1:04:11 The Supreme Court challenge to the 2020 orders

1:07:55 What happens if gun owners win

1:12:05 What gun owners can do now

1:13:44 Join a party and change it from inside

1:17:20 One voice, and using AI to be heard

1:20:17 The NFA needs people on the legal side

1:22:15 Gun clubs, range days and normalcy

1:26:40 Personal agency

1:29:57 Courts, politics and culture

1:32:56 A Schützenfest for Canada

1:38:05 Acceptable reasons to own a firearm

1:40:55 Self-defence in Canada

Resources & partners

https://www.silvercore.ca/blog/bc-firearm-violence-prevention-act

Website: https://nfa.ca

Travis Bader: [00:00:00] When the president of the National Firearms Association calls and says he's worried Ottawa is coming for the SKS and maybe more, you make time. He spent 30 years in this fight, and he called because he wants to get in front of it. Welcome back to the Silvercore Podcast, Blair Hagen.

Blair Hagen: Pleasure to be here as always.

Travis Bader: Blair, so what is happening?

Blair Hagen: Well, there's a lot happening. Uh, I, I think in the last, uh, piece I did with you, it was a lot of, uh, general stuff, I mean, important stuff, but boy, is there a lot going on right now, and especially in BC, okay? As everybody knows, we've got a lot of stuff happening, an election, um, a lot of stuff I want to get into, I think, that we need to get into for the benefit of British Columbians who own [00:01:00] firearms- Hmm

because it's, uh, pretty serious But, uh, yeah. Um, I think, uh, one thing I do wanna mention is, uh, our friend Dan Fritter.

Travis Bader: Yes. I was chatting with him.

Blair Hagen: Right, the publisher of Caliber Magazine. Apparently he's, uh, running or will have run for, uh, Kelowna City Council.

Travis Bader: Uh-huh. I think, uh, Kelowna would be very well-served if, uh, if Dan's able to get in.

Blair Hagen: A- ab- absolutely. He's a level-headed guy. I mean, he has, uh, been part of that community for going on, what, 10 years now?

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Blair Hagen: Something like that.

Travis Bader: Yeah, he's bright, and he's fair. And he- He is ... he's the kind of person that you want in politics because he actually cares, and you can see that in all of his efforts that he put for- he puts forward.

Yes. And just in the way he talks and his actions.

Blair Hagen: Yeah. You know, he's been very successful in life, with business, that sort of thing, Caliber Magazine.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Blair Hagen: Um, you know, he's not a career politician or anything like that, that you get a lot of these days.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Blair Hagen: So yeah. It might

Travis Bader: [00:02:00] play against him, unfortunately.

Blair Hagen: I, I don't know.

I think there's an appetite for that today.

Travis Bader: Yeah. You know, I'm, I'm looking at some of the, uh... I think they have a lot of people on the bill in Kelowna there. Yeah. And I'm looking at some of them, and they're wakeboarding behind a, a boat. And like, "You should, you should vote for me," or you got the other guy who's like, "I don't even wanna be here, but I'm under 60."

Blair Hagen: Yeah.

Travis Bader: And, you know, I'm, I'm not sure. I've looked, took a little bit of a, of a look at his policy. I like his marketing. Yeah. I don't know if his policies quite align with what I think would, uh, uh... Not that I'm getting behind one or the other- Sure ... but just from a personal standpoint-

Blair Hagen: Yeah ...

Travis Bader: I would vote for Dan.

Blair Hagen: Yeah. No, absolutely. I mean, knowing Dan, uh, you know, um, knowing Caliber Magazine, which is, uh, one of, uh, Canada's premier gun magazines, I'm partial- One of. I'm partial to Canadian Farms Journal myself,

Travis Bader: but- Who puts that one out? I've heard of that before.

Blair Hagen: Oh, it's, it's a fine magazine. You should check it out.

Travis Bader: I, I should. I... Yes.

Blair Hagen: But Dan puts out a good magazine too, so, uh, good luck, Dan. Uh, hope to see you, uh, in, uh, a position like that in the future. We n- [00:03:00] we need more, uh, uh, people, uh, who understand the farms issue in all, uh, aspects of government, uh, you know, at city, municipal, provincial, federal. I mean, uh, if you care about this issue, get involved.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Blair Hagen: I think the first thing we should talk about here, and I, I, I know, uh, this is a concern of your, yours, because I have seen, uh, what Silvercore has put out on this, uh, that is the BC Firearms Act.

Travis Bader: Right.

Blair Hagen: And that just dropped, what was it, October 1st? Yep,

Travis Bader: October 1st.

Blair Hagen: Yeah. And, uh, I know Silvercore has, uh, put out a real-world explanation of, uh, the issues, uh, surrounding that.

I, I love that. Uh, that's absolutely what's necessary because if you actually look at the act itself, it's just-

Travis Bader: It's difficult. It's convoluted, and I had to go to five different resources in order to try and put that together. It's not just... It's not self-evident on the face of it, and there's so many blank areas that are still...

There's question marks. Yeah. And so I, I've put them over to the province. Right. We'll see what comes [00:04:00] back. I know others have put questions to the province, and they've got the response, "Ah, we're a little busy right now. Let's wait for the election before we get back to you."

Blair Hagen: Well, I think that, you know, the response is gonna be, "Well, we're, we're, we're, we'll let the courts sort it out."

You know?

Travis Bader: That... Yeah, and that's total BS. You can't enact laws like that and just say, "Oh, yeah, yeah, we don't... We haven't totally thought it out. It sounds good on paper because I think it's what people want. We'll let the courts deal with it. Sorry if you're tied up in that process- Yeah, exactly.

Blair Hagen: And- ...

Travis Bader: for the next six years of your life."

Blair Hagen: And get... Exactly. And hey, you know, if you're exonerated, good for you. Yeah, come on. I mean- Right ... it, it's not... This is not the way to legislate, but we all know why they legislate this way. So there, there are several things, and we're not... W- w- You know, we cannot get into everything, uh, associated with this now because we'd be here for, like, two or three podcasts.

But, uh, there are some things that people should, uh, know and realize, uh, that are coming. Uh, you know, if you find yourself, uh, in- involved w- with this, heaven forbid, charged, [00:05:00] you're, you gotta understand what could potentially happen to you. Um- What's your takeaway on this?

Travis Bader: On which one? The, the BC Firearms Violence Prevention Act, the FVPA, or the, the SKS being on the chopping block for- Well,

Blair Hagen: we'll, we'll get

Travis Bader: to-

so many years, or the-

Blair Hagen: We'll, we'll get to that later. But I think what we should talk about is the BC, uh, Firearms Act, Violence Pre- Prevention Act, and that's a misnomer because none of this has anything to do with preventing violence, gang violence, you know, the issues that we're all concerned with. This is directed at, uh, lawful firearms owners and the recreational use of firearms.

Travis Bader: That's right.

Blair Hagen: And, you know, full stop. Okay?

Travis Bader: It's, you know, i- it's, it's such a tough conversation to have, I find, because on one side you're preaching to the choir, and you're gonna have the firearms owners that say, "Why are they going after my firearms? I'm not a threat. Nobody I know is a threat. In fact, we go through mandatory training, cr- criminal record checks, reference checks."

Used to be five years. Goes back to [00:06:00] indefinitely now, your entire life, and it goes on on a daily basis. And if any of them mess up, that's it. They're gone. And so, you know, with great privilege, with great power comes great responsibility, to quote Spider-Man's uncle there.

Blair Hagen: Mm-hmm.

Travis Bader: Um, and every firearms owner I know takes it to that level.

They realize that I, I've got this privilege in Canada. Everyone likes to call firearms ownership- I- ... a privilege ... I

Blair Hagen: would give you an argument on that.

Travis Bader: Uh, and I'd, I'd love to hear it.

Blair Hagen: Okay.

Travis Bader: We, we've got this privilege, right? And I don't wanna lose it. And that's generally how it's viewed in Canada. Not a right, like they have in the States, even though, uh, I think a lot of people would say that Can- Canadians have a right.

Blair Hagen: I, w- I, I'd give you an argument on that. And I- We have, we have the original right, but we'll get into that another time.

Travis Bader: Okay. So that's how firearms owners comport themselves.

Blair Hagen: Yes.

Travis Bader: And they feel like, and you know this, and they feel targeted over and over again when something happens in the [00:07:00] media.

Blair Hagen: Yes.

Travis Bader: Let's say there's a, uh, a firearm that's been used nefariously. Uh, the Tumbler Ridge shooting.

Blair Hagen: Yes.

Travis Bader: Absolutely horrific. Absolutely... Uh, I mean, anybody, anybody getting behind this saying- Yeah ... can see it for what it is. Sure. And they say, "Jesus, I don't like this. What can I do to be able to prevent this in the future?"

And unfortunately, on the political spectrum, b- because it's not an easy answer-

Blair Hagen: No ...

Travis Bader: they'll try and find that easy road. They'll go after that TikTok attention span, and they'll say, "Ah, yes, we'll just ban all those guns. We'll ban the guns that he was using. We'll ban the guns that, uh, he wasn't using. That, that'll stop it.

Next?"

Blair Hagen: Yeah, e- e- exactly, and the problem is, um- It's like you say, it's easy to do that. These people are law-abiding. They're licensed. A lot of them hold registrations. Um, so we, we know where, who they are and where those guns are. We can target that- Hmm ... because, you know, we can make an argument that, [00:08:00] hey, the, the mere presence of these people or those firearms is a danger to public safety, and that's not proven.

Not proven at all, not statistically. It's, it's nonsense. But because it's a known quantity, uh, they, they have that data, they can use it to target people, and that's very dangerous and has been very dangerous in this country, especially recently- Hmm ... since 2020 with the orders in council, that sort of thing.

But also in the past as well. Every piece of firearms, uh, legislation that has come down the line in, I, I wanna say the last 50 years, has done it on that pre- premise. Hmm. Okay? Um, we can't really target criminals because, uh, you know, we, we have a rehabilitative, uh, uh, legal system in Canada. We, we, we don't punish people.

We, we don't, uh, want to, uh, incarcerate people for purposes of public safety. We wanna help people. If, you know, i- if you're an offender, there's gotta be a reason that you're an offender, and we want to rehabilitate you and, [00:09:00] uh, introduce you back into society as quickly as possible. I mean, this is the attitude of the government and the, uh- Oh

and the, uh, certainly the, uh, correctional system. So when issues like this come up, what can we do? Well, we have a whole list of people who are legally allowed to own firearms, and in many cases, we have a list of firearms that they own.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Blair Hagen: So if we can target that and, uh, assure Canadians who, you know, have no knowledge or, or, or, or, or concern with this issue, uh, maybe that'll show that we're doing something.

And it really comes down to that, "Hey, we're doing something about this." And a lot of people in the public will go, "Well, you know, let's give it a try. You know, if it doesn't work, then we know." Unfortunately, that affects the rights and the property of a lot of Canadians. And, uh, I know Canadians have been very, uh, you know, uh, cooperative in the pa- in, in the past with this.

But, uh, since it's become apparent that this is a civil disarmament agenda and has nothing to do with public safety, [00:10:00] can't be anymore.

Travis Bader: I think people should ask, "Okay, you're doing something. Great, I got it. The politicians were out there doing something. What are you trying to do? Transparently, what is it that you're trying to do, and how do those actions affect that outcome-

Blair Hagen: Yeah

Travis Bader: if you're, if you're trying to get there?" Because if you work your way backwards off a lot of these things, unfortunately- Firearms are a political tool- Yeah ... and, and it's an emotional object. Yes. It carries a lot of emotional weight, and far be it from me to talk to somebody who's been negatively impacted by firearms to try and say, "Oh, no, firearms are great.

Firearms are this." I get it. It's gonna have an emotional effect on one side or the other, but it shouldn't be, that emotion shouldn't be what's driving- Policy and legislation which is wholly ineffective to achieving the end goal that's stated

Blair Hagen: I, and I agree, and I've been negatively affected- I- ... by firearms.

Travis Bader: Twice, right?

Blair Hagen: T- twice, yes. Right.

Travis Bader: Working in a gun store.

Blair Hagen: Y- yes, y- [00:11:00] you know, through two armed robberies, and it's not fun having gun, gun shoved in your face.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Blair Hagen: And, you know, watching your life pass before your eyes. Um, but, uh- But

Travis Bader: at what point did you say, "Man, if we only banned that make and model of firearm that was pointed in my face, that would've never have happened"?

Blair Hagen: Uh, at no point. Uh, you know, I guess- Right ... I, I, I guess my, my, my attitudes have been, you know, d- you know, too polluted by the gun lobby, so, you know, I'm a lost cause. So-

Travis Bader: But, but the conversation in, um, in Canada- Yep ... and North America is, is very often driven by that emotional factor.

Blair Hagen: I, and, and I think that's what the BC government is trying to do here.

We have a, a very, very bad gang violence pro- problem in this province, and it's, it's spread out of Vancouver. It's in every part of the province now. Uh, you know, uh, the BC government, there's a lot of people there who are id e- ideologically committed to this issue. They don't like guns. They, they don't think, uh, uh, British Columbians or Canadians should have them.

And if they can [00:12:00] take measures to take guns off of people, never mind f- the reason, um, they, they feel any gun off the street, regardless of the circumstances, is, uh, is a step forward. And they don't take issues like rights, freedoms, and property into consideration here, and that's, that's why this, this BC Firearms Act is, is so dangerous because it's wide open, uh, for, uh, uh, i- it's wide open for abuse, and it's wide open for, uh, the, uh, unnecessary seizure of property.

And there's a couple of things here that are very, very serious, uh, that I n- I think we need to get into, and it, it, it comes down to, "Hey, look, face it. Uh, there's a lot of people out there, you know, who try to do the right thing, uh, have the best of intentions but will ultimately, uh, commit infractions." Mm.

Now, obviously, those are gonna be the minor infractions, right? Sure. They're not gonna be the major infractions that affect, you know, life, property, that sort of thing, or get into issues like criminality.

Travis Bader: You, you talk about, like, firearms infractions, like a trigger lock fell [00:13:00] off or a-

Blair Hagen: Yeah. P- I forgot this.

I didn't do that. I didn't under- Or a license expired or- I didn't, I didn't understand the regulation, license expired. Sure. That's a very, very, uh, important one. Um, and, uh, i- in the past, there have been, you know, uh, regulations enacted to correct that, okay? Well, guess what? You didn't do the right thing this time.

You know, you know it. And, uh, you, you are gonna take steps in the future to make sure you do. But in the meantime, we gotta give you a fine.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Blair Hagen: Okay? And that, why are we giving you a fine? Because that's a reminder, okay? That's a reminder that you messed up this time, you had to pay for it, and if you don't want to pay for it again in the future, uh, govern yourself accordingly.

Okay? And you know what? Fair enough. Fair enough. Okay? But, uh, under the new BC Firearms Act, uh, the very act of doing so could, uh, result in a couple of serious things. Uh, things like, uh, seizure and forfeiture of your gun.

Travis Bader: That's right.

Blair Hagen: [00:14:00] And, uh, also the effect it has on your driver's license.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Blair Hagen: And I think that's the biggest thing, uh, that affects most people, because most people, you drive to work, it's part of your livelihood, it's part of, uh, what you need to do.

And, uh, in, in many instances, under the new act, um, by, uh, being found guilty of an offense and paying the fine-

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm ...

Blair Hagen: you, uh, basically, uh, forfeit your property and receive a, uh, f- uh, a firearms prohibition.

Travis Bader: Yeah, 'cause it opens you up. So we've got three levels of government in Canada. We've got our federal or provincial, and mu- municipal governments.

Blair Hagen: Right.

Travis Bader: So federal government says, "Here's what the laws are," right? "Here's what you, uh, what, what you can't do." Right. It's not so much what you can do, but it's, like, here's all the things that, that you can't do. And let's use, like, driving as an example. And they say, "Well, h- here, here's a federal speed limit."

And now the province, they can't go around and say, "Well, if the federal speed limit was, let's say, [00:15:00] 120, uh, kilometers an hour, but in our area you can do 150." Now, the province can put further restrictions on, but generally speaking, they don't go the other way.

Blair Hagen: Yeah.

Travis Bader: Uh, so they say, "Well, if you're, if you're driving on our highways, it's only 100."

And the mu- municipality might say, "Okay, on our side streets you're doing 50," right? Yeah. And each one can restrict it a little bit further. Um, in some cases you're finding places where the provincial government is enacting things opposite to what the federal government's enacting.

Blair Hagen: Right.

Travis Bader: Like, one that's always made me scratch my head a little bit is you can't have a loaded firearm in a vehicle.

That's a federal, federal rule, federal law, but in British Columbia they have exemptions if you're, let's say, a disabled hunter and you want to- Right ... hunt from a vehicle. Okay. So I don't understand how it goes backwards. I figure after the election I'm gonna actually ask that question, see if I can figure that one out.

But now you've got a provincial, uh, uh, regulation, which if you violate and then you pay your fine, you've just committed a [00:16:00] firearms offense, which the federal side can turn around and say, "Well, that's, now you're coming with a firearms prohibition." 'Cause what people don't, a lot of people don't realize, they say, "Well, it's, it's under 500 feet per second, 5.7 joules of energy- Yeah

so it's not a firearm." Well, hold on. That's a regulated firearm. Regulated firearms require a firearms license. You can still have a firearm, anything capable of discharging a projectile, cause death, grievous bodily harm, right? Includes a receiver. Right. That's, and that can include air guns under that amount, and you find yourself in that same blanket category.

So like you just said there, you pay your fine provincially, well, you've now haven't gone and contested. You, you haven't gone and challenged the process. You say, "Oh, okay, I guess I messed up. I'll pay the fine." Whoops. Now you could find yourself having a complete prohibition.

Blair Hagen: Exactly. And, um, I, I don't think a lot of people understand it because obviously this, uh, you know, this, uh, act was not, uh, widely communicated.

It was not, uh, widely, uh, [00:17:00] um... It, it, they did not consult widely on this. Mm. I mean, this is, uh, ba- basically a product of bureaucrats. Sure. Okay? Bureaucrats with an agenda. I hate to say it, but I, you know, I, I will say it. And, uh, people got to understand that. You know, you, you gotta- I don't have to say this to firearms owners because they already do it, okay?

The vast majority of them. You gotta think about everything that you do, and I know you're doing that right now, but you're gonna have to do it more because of this Firearms Act, which is not targeting, uh, gang violence. It's not targeting criminal gangs. It's targeting you. So, um, I would widely encourage people to look at the Silvercore explanation of this because it is the best thing we have right now.

Uh, as we go forward, you know, precedent will be set. Sure. Uh, unfortunately, people are gonna be charged. Yeah. Okay? And, uh, they're gonna suffer the effects on it, but, uh, that, that was the goal here. It was to, [00:18:00] uh, enable, uh, firearms forfeiture, prohibition, that sort of thing. The fewer so-called legal firearms owners there are, the fewer so-called legal firearms there are in circulation, the better as far as the- these people are concerned.

And also, its effects on things like you just said, like, uh, air guns, uh, paintball.

Travis Bader: Yeah, Airsoft.

Blair Hagen: Airsoft.

Travis Bader: Right.

Blair Hagen: I mean, they're basically treating all of these things as firearms now.

Travis Bader: Sure.

Blair Hagen: And I, I, you know, I-

Travis Bader: Well, they've always been a firearm, but they've been exemptions, right? Yeah. There's, you've regulated and non-regulated.

Like, what I'm trying to do, because I know a lot of people listening here are gonna be, I'm gonna do air brackets here, the initiated, the gun people. Sure. And they're like, "I know this, Travis. I already know this." But if we talk about this in a way where, 'cause there's a lot of our audience actually, they're into the outdoors.

Sure. We've got alpinists, skiers, we've got adventurers, and firearms aren't their thing.

Blair Hagen: Yeah.

Travis Bader: But they're, I'm sure, rightly concerned about [00:19:00] their own property rights. Certainly. And they might not care. Okay, someone loses their firearms, what does that mo- how does that bother me? How does it affect me? Well, he, he

Blair Hagen: probably deserved it, right?

Travis Bader: Sure. Yeah. Like, when there, where there's smoke, there's fire, right? Yeah. Okay. Maybe. Maybe in some cases, but quite often we find in firearms-related issues, um, it's not a where there's smoke, there's fire. It's either a, uh, misinterpretation of the law, which takes years for people to figure out, and then turns out the person did nothing wrong, or it's more nefarious.

Blair Hagen: Exactly.

Travis Bader: Um, but it also, if you start setting precedent with property rights and you just go after the easy ones, right? It, it's kinda like, you know, everyone k- knows the States. They, they say, "Well, I've- we've got a right to, uh, free speech in the States, right?"

Blair Hagen: Yeah.

Travis Bader: Okay. Well, with that right, it also means there's gonna be the right that people are gonna say things that might offend you.

Exactly. That you might not agree with. But you have to protect that right if you wanna have free speech. [00:20:00] Firearms might be something somebody might not necessarily agree with. Fundamentally, it's just not part of their, their makeup. Sure. They don't, they don't like it. But if you don't protect that right and they can take that property, what other property can they take from you?

Blair Hagen: I, I-

Travis Bader: Larry, you tell

Blair Hagen: me. I, I always like to say it's like the canary in the coal mine.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Blair Hagen: Okay? Um, well, like, you know, firearms, I don't know about that. I mean, they're dangerous. People can get hurt, that sort of thing. Why do people need them to go put holes in paper? You know, maybe we should have laws or, you know, maybe people shouldn't have firearms at all.

I, I don't understand the issue. I never knew anybody who owned firearms. But when, when it comes down to it, this is a freedom and property issue. Mm-hmm. Okay? If they can do this to-

Travis Bader: Under the guise of public safety. It really is And everyone has a hard time saying, "Well, of course I want safety."

Blair Hagen: We all do.

Come on.

Travis Bader: Well, what vehicles can I own? Well, under the guise of public safety. Well, where can I travel? Well, under the guise of public safety, we're gonna just restrict your travel.

Blair Hagen: Exactly. Well- I mean, where, where does it start? Where [00:21:00] does, where does it stop? I

Travis Bader: mean, I think- And it, and it sounds tinfoil hat.

Like, I got a tinfoil hat sitting back here. And I've never had to wear it yet,

Blair Hagen: but... Oh my God, you do. No, but I mean, I... And it's not just you and me. I hear this, uh, I hear this more and more talking to people. Obviously in my role in my job, I talk to a lot of people, uh, about issues like this. And, uh, there are more and more people talking about it in the same terms.

And I think we're, I think we're seeing it in the national debate too. Mm. Okay? There's a lot more people coming out and saying, "No, no, no, no. We don't buy your assertions for public safety. We don't buy your assertions that some guns are more dangerous than others for some reason. We don't buy that, okay?

And therefore, we're not gonna support your efforts to, uh, you know, prohibit and confiscate property." And I think that's why the government's agenda is failing so badly today.

Travis Bader: I think, you know, the old adage, sex sells. Well, they've discovered fear sells even better. And if they can create fear in people, they can manipulate opinion.

Yes. And they can [00:22:00] manipulate masses.

Blair Hagen: But it works both ways, okay? Be- and especially since 2020. Okay? Um- A lot of people sort of woke up, you know, when b- you know, a- and it was a scary time, obviously, and govern- governments took draconian steps

Travis Bader: People are afraid of what they don't know.

Blair Hagen: Exactly. They, they-

Travis Bader: We didn't know what was happening in 2020

Blair Hagen: and governments took draconian steps to try and address it. I think that a lot of people are taking a look at now say, "That was not appropriate. That trampled people's rights, um, and, uh, affected them very negatively for no proven reason." But a lot of people s- thought, "If this is real, if this is, uh, has the potential to, uh, undermine society- Yeah

undermine, uh, law and order, how do I protect myself?" And certainly a lot of people at that time got into firearms.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Blair Hagen: Uh, got firearms licenses if they didn't already have them, uh, and started to buy guns and ammunition because it was fear. And, uh, I, I, I know [00:23:00] the gun industry and I know firearms owners get a lot of, uh, flack over this.

"Well, you're selling p- uh, fear. You're, you're selling fear that people need guns to protect themselves." But a lot of people looked at the issues that were sort of surrounded in what happened in 2020, and then looked at more general issues that are affecting our society now. I mean, this is not the same Canada it was 56 years ago.

Travis Bader: No. Now, I've, and I've said this before on the podcast, I don't think, I, I, I'm not gonna quite get that tinfoil hat on yet because I don't think there is some overarching cabal of, uh, manipulators and organizers that were like, "We're gonna introduce this, we're gonna introduce that, and we're gonna control everything."

I, I think some people in a position of power and leadership were well-intentioned, and they say, "We don't know what's going on, and we sure don't wanna be caught with our pants down." I'm, I'm speaking, let's say, the COVID h- uh- Yeah ... in COVID time, and we wanna make sure, like, if this really is bad, um- And we didn't act when other [00:24:00] people were acting.

So there's a lot of monkey see, monkey do, and try and, try and, uh, virtue- But- But there were individuals, and there always will be, people who will use that for their own advantage.

Blair Hagen: You don't attack certain principles upon which our country and our society is founded on, and that's exactly what they did.

They didn't care.

Travis Bader: Right. It's been, it's been an ongoing process of, uh, the whole public safety debate. Yeah. Of, of whole fear. Because if you're afraid, then that means you'll give us money, you'll listen, you'll... We can retain power. Yeah. We will protect you. We're your safety. We're the government. We're here to help you, right?

Sure. And I think, I think people... You're right. I think a lot of people are starting to wake up and, uh, ask questions. I'm wondering if those people can look at every issue and remove their bias from it. If they have a bias towards firearms, look at the firearms issue and say, "How is fear being [00:25:00] used to manipulate me and my opinion?"

Blair Hagen: This, this issue has been evolving for many years. Sure. Okay? And I would say, i- in my, my experience, and my experience with it is, is 30 years. That's- Mm-hmm ... how I've been involved. Um- Y- you know, uh, besides being younger and being a, a kid or a young- a young adult, that sort of thing. So the last 30 years, uh, of the firearms issue, and it, it, it has evolved, and it continues to evolve, and I really see that.

I really see a lot more, uh, critical thinking, uh, a lot of more, uh, critical consideration of things that used to be, hey, it's, you know, mom and apple pie, gun control in Canada. We have gun control in Canada. Yeah. Not like the States. They don't have gun control. Even though they do. They do.

Travis Bader: 100% they do.

Blair Hagen: 100%, in some places even worse than Canada.

Mm-hmm. But, uh, yeah. Uh, and y- you didn't really question that. You know, it's like, yeah, no, it's a hassle, or yeah, you know-

Travis Bader: But I'm Canadian.

Blair Hagen: Yeah, but we make these concessions for public safety, and you know what? It didn't pan out that way, did it?

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Blair Hagen: Okay? So I think I, I [00:26:00] see a lot more people talking in those terms.

And you know what? Uh, certainly with, uh, uh, immigrants, recent immigrants, you know. Uh, they come to the country to enjoy the same rights and freedoms that we do, that we celebrate.

Travis Bader: Sure.

Blair Hagen: And but they're coming from countries, uh, that didn't enjoy, uh, the same, uh, privileges that we had growing up. Mm. Okay? You know, very, very volatile places of the world where, you know, crime, uh, you know, dic- dictatorial governments.

They l- they lived under that. Mm. They experienced that, and they said, "I, you know ... I, I don't see a way out here. I am going to go to a, a place like Canada where I can live in freedom."

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Blair Hagen: And, uh, I, I hear that a lot. Uh, it's just sort of like, "I don't like what's happening now, and it reminds me too much of where I came from, and something has to be done to stop it."

And so I, I really do think that, uh, certainly in the public, and they always say that governments are, what, five, 10 years b- uh, uh, behind what the public is actually thinking. You

Travis Bader: know? So, so you think that's gonna start changing. You see the, uh, the pendulum

Blair Hagen: swinging. I, I, uh, I ... [00:27:00] The pendulum has been swinging for a while now.

Sure. Uh, the problem we have in Canada is governments, you know? But even governments are changing. I mean, if you look at what's happened since, since the advent of the OICs, you know. Um, Alberta- Saskatchewan-

Travis Bader: Mm ...

Blair Hagen: Manitoba, Ontario, hopefully BC after the election, all coming out against, uh, the, uh, also Yukon.

Yukon just introdu- i- is introducing a firearms act. I thought that was very interesting.

Travis Bader: Yeah, they've got a new acting CFO for, uh, Yukon, Northwest Territories, um- Yeah ...

Blair Hagen: yeah. But, but s- but standing in opposition to the, the federal agenda i- which is very healthy. So yeah, it's, it's been evolving, and it too, it's too bad it has to, uh, uh, evolve in the face of some very, very serious threats to rights, freedoms, and property that's coming out of Ottawa, and continues.

I mean, I know we've had a change of government. Um, the, uh, the Carney government is supposed to be different. Uh, I don't think it is. But, [00:28:00] uh-

Travis Bader: Well, it's, again, it's, they, they won on fear, and that was the whole fear manipulation. Yeah. Uh, it's, if it wasn't for Trump, right? Then that whole fear factor. And then we've got a provincial government here in British Columbia who's running on...

Now, that's a federal thing, the-

Blair Hagen: Yeah ...

Travis Bader: Trump and tariffs and all the rest, but he's running on that fear. And I think, I think some people are just gonna be afraid. But I think a lot of people are realizing, like, that, "Look, what, should I really be fearful? Like, I, I'm having a hard time af- affording groceries."

Or, like in- Yeah ... British Columbia here, we went from, um, having a surplus to our number three most, uh, expensive line item- Yeah ... that we have after education and healthcare is just servicing the debt.

Blair Hagen: Ex- exactly. So BC Firearms Act, very bad news for firearms owners. And, uh, yes, we are in el- in election now.

Mm. Okay? And, uh, it seems the main issue is he's, uh, [00:29:00] uh, Mr. Eby is not running against, uh, you know, the Conservative Party. He's running against Donald Trump.

Travis Bader: Right.

Blair Hagen: And I, I, I think British Columbians are smarter than that.

Travis Bader: Well, I think people are s- there's always gonna be different factions. Yeah. But I think a lot of people are waking up.

But I, I, I see the fear side. Yeah. But I also see the reduction in personal agency, and I've talked about this- Oh, yes ... for many, for many years. Don't protect yourself, call the police, they'll protect you. Otherwise, you'll get charged. You're gonna be in trouble for protecting yourself.

Blair Hagen: Right.

Travis Bader: Like, there's, there's fundamental rights and freedoms that people have.

Um, you can't do it. Don't worry, we'll take care of you. We'll, we'll- Right ... we'll use your money and we'll implement another process here, and that'll take care of it. You just, just stay there. Yeah. And-

Blair Hagen: These are all sacrifices that we have to make for- For

Travis Bader: public safety ...

Blair Hagen: for, for common good, public safety, and a better tomorrow.

Travis Bader: So that's one big one that I think people have to realize. When you started this off and you talked about Dan Fritter- Yeah ... that's personal [00:30:00] agency. That's one individual who is intelligent and passionate, and he's got, he, he's got a plan in mind for how he can make-

Blair Hagen: Exactly ...

Travis Bader: Kelowna, his, his local area better.

Blair Hagen: Yeah.

Travis Bader: Every single one of the people listening to this, to one degree or another, has a level of personal agency. That's right. They might not have the same reach, but they can affect positive change in their area. And when people start giving up their personal agency f- in exchange for, um, safety. Yeah. Was it Jefferson?

Those who give up their own rights and freedoms in exchange for safety deserve neither.

Blair Hagen: Yep.

Travis Bader: Right? Um- True words. Extremely true words

Blair Hagen: E- e- e- especially right now.

Travis Bader: Right.

Blair Hagen: Okay, and, uh, again, I, you know, I've- I'm optimistic about this. Uh, I've s- I'm seeing it happening, so I'm very optimistic. But we are in a provincial election, and I know you put out a call for the, uh, the leaders of the parties- Yeah

to come on Silvercore Podcast- Yes ... and talk about their, their, uh, policies, their outlooks, [00:31:00] that, that, that sort of thing. One did.

Travis Bader: One. Only one. And you know what? I was within one hour of putting it out. Yeah. I got a response back, "Yep, I'm on." Not, "What are we gonna talk about?" Not what... It was, "Yep, I'm on."

Blair Hagen: Yeah.

Travis Bader: I had one other, uh, Eleanor Sterko said, um, uh, they wanted to record, "Can you have a date this week?" Unfortunately, I didn't have a date in that, uh, frame.

Blair Hagen: Right.

Travis Bader: And then a couple more emails, and it's gone dark.

Blair Hagen: Yeah.

Travis Bader: Uh, NDP, uh, Eby says, uh, politely declined. Um, and, and you know what? I'm, I'm gonna treat all of them just as fair, ask the same types of questions- Sure

put the same things forward to them because I'm, I'm not a political guy. I- and I wanna learn. I wanna learn my little part that I can do to be able to help.

Blair Hagen: Yeah.

Travis Bader: And then, um, uh, the other parties, just haven't heard back.

Blair Hagen: Yeah, yeah. But still, people wanna know.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Blair Hagen: Okay, so where, where do the parties stand in, in, in terms of, uh, firearms policy, uh, in, in British Columbia in this election?

[00:32:00] Okay, well, Dallas Brodie, uh, OneBC, came on your podcast- That's right ... and, and, and, and did give, uh, uh, a fairly comprehensive ex- explanation.

Travis Bader: Right.

Blair Hagen: Uh, the, uh, the main parties, NDP, BC Conservatives have not, unfortunately. Uh, but I, I know people wanna know, and I guess that's kinda why I'm here. That's kind of my job is to advise people, uh, on firearms policy of, uh, you know, provincial, uh, you know...

I don't care what it is, city, municipal, provincial- Hmm ... federal, obviously. Uh, so I will do that, okay?

Travis Bader: Please.

Blair Hagen: Uh, well, the BC NDP, unfortunately I would have to give them an F. Uh, in terms of, uh, their treatment of the firearms issue in British Columbia, as everyone knows, they did not come out and oppose, uh, federal, uh, civil s- disarmament agenda.

They did not oppose the OICs. They endorsed the OICs. Mm. Uh, when it became obvious that, uh, the, uh, f- federal liberal [00:33:00] program was very, very unpopular and failing, uh, they did back off and say, "Well, we, we, we support the intent, but, well, we're not going to, uh, actively participate or force law enforcement agencies to take part in this.

We know it's controversial." Yeah. But, uh, the fact of the matter is, uh, they, uh, they did not do what they had to do to protect the rights, freedoms, and property for British Columbians, and I suspect that that is largely based on a ideological agenda.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Blair Hagen: Okay? I- I- Everybody knows. I mean, there's a lot of woke people in the NDP- Mm

who don't particularly like firearms or the people who own them. So I think that's gone a long way towards shaping policy in this government, okay? I, I, I, I don't think they really value, certainly, uh, uh, people in northern BC, uh, our c- our proud culture, you know, of, of hunting, fishing, firearms ownership in this- Mm

province. [00:34:00] I, I think that's kind of a, kind of way down on the list for them. Uh, there's a lot more issues that, uh, take precedence, and, uh, I think, uh, if you are l- looking at voting for the NDP in this provincial election, you should look elsewhere.

Travis Bader: I think, uh, the best predictor of future performance is past performance.

Blair Hagen: Yes, indeed. And, uh, d- you know, they certainly dropped the ball on this e- if they, if they even had the ball in the first place. Mm-hmm. Okay? So yeah, uh, BC Firearms Act was kind of l- uh, the, uh, the, uh, frosting on the cake for this.

Travis Bader: Uh-huh.

Blair Hagen: Uh-huh. So, uh, that's where we sort of stand with them. Um, BC Conservatives.

Um, uh, I obviously have ha- had a lot of dealings with BC Conservatives, uh, a lot of meetings with, uh, uh, various people in the party, uh, party leaders, uh, MLAs, that sort of thing. Mm. And, uh, have a [00:35:00] very reasonable idea of where they stand on the firearms issue.

Travis Bader: Okay.

Blair Hagen: Uh, I would be remiss if I didn't remind people that, uh, Sheldon Clare, the MLA for Prince George-North Cariboo, is former president of Canada's National Farmers Association.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Blair Hagen: So, uh, if anybody understands the firearms issue, he does.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Blair Hagen: Okay. Um, generally, uh, positive on, uh, firearms issues. Uh, the i- issues like, uh, rights, freedoms, property especially, because they, they do see firearms as property.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Blair Hagen: And, uh, I think their opposition to the federal agenda is, is, uh, legitimate.

Travis Bader: Okay.

Blair Hagen: Uh, I think they, uh, if they form government, uh, they will, uh, join the other provinces in officially opposing, uh, the federal, uh, confiscation agenda on firearms.

Travis Bader: That'd be nice to see.

Blair Hagen: Okay.

Travis Bader: That's a hell of a lot of money being wasted on something that- As usual ... will affect zero change.

Blair Hagen: Oh, uh, absolutely.

I mean, it's, it's long gun registry, uh, [00:36:00] you know, point, 2.0. Mm-hmm. I mean, with, but with far, uh, more serious ramifications. Um, so generally speaking, I would say they're good. Uh, they have been a little light on official policy. I mean, it's great to have meetings with, uh, these people, and, you know, I, I, I- Sure

really, really value that. They've, they've, uh, they've said a lot of, uh, really good and forthright things. Uh-

Travis Bader: It's hard to talk definitively if they don't have official policy

Blair Hagen: out. Yeah. E- exactly. And, you know, I... You know, things happen. I mean, it's been very, very volatile- Mm ... in British Columbia recently, and, uh, you know, maybe that had something to do with it.

Okay, fine. Uh, but my experience has been, generally speaking, uh, based on what I know and the people I know in the party, uh, I would say they, they are, are, uh, generally positive on the firearms issue. Uh, I hope if they form government, uh, they will form, uh, policy quickly on this because, you know, things are changing all the time.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Blair Hagen: Um, I feel that they will if, uh, Sheldon Clare has anything to say [00:37:00] about it.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Blair Hagen: Um, but, uh-

Travis Bader: It's never been my experience that any government, like you had said, will put the firearms at the forefront as something they wanna move quickly on-

Blair Hagen: Yeah ...

Travis Bader: because that makes for a very easy leverage point at the next election.

Blair Hagen: And you

Travis Bader: know what? "We're just about to do

Blair Hagen: it." And you know what? Firearms owners know that. Mm-hmm. They, they notice things like that. Mm-hmm. It's like, "You said you were gonna do this, and you haven't really done anything, have you?" Yeah. "And now we're coming up on the election, and you trot something out, and it's, you know, it's just not the answer."

So I, I, I don't know. I mean- Mm ... I can't predict it based on what, what I've, what, what I, I've heard, I've experienced, that sort of thing. You know- It, it, that's fine. You, you know, uh, you, you have generally a good understanding of the idea, and you generally seem to have the best interest of British Columbians at heart.

Good for you. Mm. But s- let's see how you perform as government.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Blair Hagen: Um, Eleanor Sterko, uh, Centre Party, I [00:38:00] don't, I haven't seen anything on firearms from them. Okay. I don't know where, where she stands on it. I, I'm, I'm not really, I'm not really knowledgeable enough to, uh, uh, comment on that.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Blair Hagen: Uh, she was part of, uh, the BC Conservative Party at one point, so I, I, I would assume that she's generally-

Travis Bader: Has conservative values

Blair Hagen: yeah, uh, generally positive, uh, in terms of, uh, firearms ownership. But, uh, you know, it's- She was

Travis Bader: RCMP, I believe.

Blair Hagen: That's not always a good indicator.

Travis Bader: No. Um, it can play in a couple different ways.

Blair Hagen: Yes, it can.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Blair Hagen: Um, but, uh, I, I can't really comment any further than that. Um, but, uh, I saw your interview with Dallas Brodie.

Travis Bader: Okay.

Blair Hagen: And, uh, OneBC. And of course, Dallas Brodie was a BC Conservative MLA un- until she was expelled from the party. That was unfortunate. The, uh, the whole affair was unfortunate.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Blair Hagen: But, uh, yeah, um, I think she was honest in your interview with her that, look, I ... Apparently she is a gun person. [00:39:00]

Travis Bader: Well, she's been, she's got her license.

Blair Hagen: She got a license.

Travis Bader: She's been through the Silvercore training.

Blair Hagen: Uh, purchased firearms- Yeah ... and I think, uh, uh, she explained that w- uh, was, a lot of that was due to what was happening in 2020.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Blair Hagen: Um, but was, uh, a little light on, uh, understanding, uh, some of the political issues involved with firearms ownership.

Uh, very, very strong on, obviously, on things like rights, freedoms, and property. Um, how could a, you know, a small C conservative not be?

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Blair Hagen: But, uh, you know, a little light on, uh, understanding, uh, uh, you know, some, some of the, uh, issues that certainly we're facing now. You know- I, I don't hold that against her

Travis Bader: no, neither do I, because- Yeah ... I don't, I don't need a political leader to know all the ins and out of firearms, but I, I need them to have enough common sense to be able to have people on board who can advise appropriately.

Blair Hagen: And, and, and to know that, hey, something's wrong here.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Blair Hagen: And, uh, I, I wanna do something to address that, and do the right thing-

Travis Bader: Right

Blair Hagen: uh, based [00:40:00] on these principles. And I think her principles came out, so that was a good thing.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Blair Hagen: Uh, one thing I was a little concerned about was, uh, when she talked about things like central storage- Mm-hmm.

Travis Bader: Well, ag- again, I think that just might be light on the, uh, on the concepts A-

Blair Hagen: a- and you know I understand that, but, uh, uh, when you're talking about, and, and obviously, I mean, you, you understand these issues, when you're talking about central storage, well, central storage in order to protect your property.

You, you know- You, you, you, you want that, right? Mm-hmm. And it's, well, it's not that simple, okay? No,

Travis Bader: it isn't.

Blair Hagen: And we can- It doesn't work that way ... find a way of, you know, taking them someplace and storing them maybe at Silvercore.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Blair Hagen: Uh, yeah, it's a little more complicated than that, right?

Travis Bader: Yeah, that was the first I ever heard about it.

If anyone's listening, there was no pre- or post-conversations on any of- ... any of that. But I think that was sort of on, on the, uh-

Blair Hagen: But, but- ...

Travis Bader: on the spot, sort of, uh-

Blair Hagen: E- ex- exactly. But we've heard this before, right?

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Blair Hagen: Um, Saskatchewan.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Blair Hagen: And, uh, when, uh, certainly when we in National Farms [00:41:00] Association first got wind of what they were con- contemplating doing, and it's like, well, that's not a solution to this, okay?

You wanna, you wanna do central storage of, uh, of affected OIC firearms while, uh, this is battled out politically. You know, w- you know, once you lose your, your gun, you're not gonna get it back. So

Travis Bader: if people- I think people get, uh, mired in the fight, and then they start looking for ways out of the fight without actually just taking a one big step back and say, "Why are we fighting?"

Yeah. Like, what, what is it, what is it we're trying to actually achieve?

Blair Hagen: But Saskatchewan did it in a very interesting way.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

Blair Hagen: Okay? So i- we're going, "Saskatchewan, what are you doing here? If you put a, if you actually... If this came to fruition, all of these guns would be in warehouses somewhere, and, uh, at the end of the day people would lose their guns- Hmm

because..." Uh, but then, uh, I gotta say somebody was thinking outside the box.

Travis Bader: That's what we're looking for, right?

Blair Hagen: Exactly. And then it came out, "Yeah, yeah, we're gonna pro- uh, provide for central storage." Where is this central [00:42:00] storage gonna be? It's gonna be at your house.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Blair Hagen: We're gonna authorize you to store the firearm.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Blair Hagen: So I don't lose it. Correct. And it was, i- it was amazing. It was like- ... why didn't I think of that?

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Blair Hagen: Because, well, obviously I'm, uh, you know, I'm thinking about the, uh, negative ramifications- Yeah ... of all of these proposals, right? So, oh, my God, if they go and do this, this is what's going to happen, right?

But I, I really gotta give it to Saskatchewan for coming up with, like, this, this, this beautiful ... I, I, I wouldn't actually call it a solution, but a, a, a, a, a beautiful way of addressing a, uh, an issue that is pertinent to the situation that we find ourselves in now.

Travis Bader: Negotiating agreement without giving in.

That old book, Getting the Yes,

Blair Hagen: right? E- e- exactly. And, and- You

Travis Bader: want a yes? Yeah, we can get there.

Blair Hagen: Yeah. And I, and I feel that Dallas Brodie would be, you know, de- you know, definitely i- interested in, in, in that sort of approach. Yeah. I mean, you know, not understanding the issue, you know, it's an [00:43:00] ever-evolving process.

I'm still learning things that I didn't know. Mm-hmm. Right? And certainly for- As

Travis Bader: we all should be.

Blair Hagen: Yeah, exactly. And, uh, for a politician, you know, uh, uh, of her stripe not to know these things or not understand these issues, that's okay. Um, uh, she's got an open mind, uh, so that's a good thing. So, uh, but I think what the takeaway people should have on this is we have very, very good options in British Columbia.

You know, the present provincial government is, is not a friend of, uh, people who believe in- Yeah ... uh, the things that we believe in: rights, freedoms, property, that sort of thing. Uh, they are f- uh, far more ide- ideologically committed to the civil disarmament agenda. They are far less likely to, uh, take, uh, things like ri- uh, rights, freedoms, and property into, uh, c- uh, consideration when d- uh, addressing things like public safety.

And this, I think the BC Firearms Act is, is solid evince- evidence of that. Yeah. [00:44:00] BC Conservatives seem to be, uh, uh, very, very, uh, educated on the issue. Uh, good people in the party who understand the issue, firearms owners. There's firearms owners in every party.

Travis Bader: Yes, there are.

Blair Hagen: Even in the NDP.

Travis Bader: Yes, there are.

Blair Hagen: Okay? And I often wonder why. Why don't you make it more of an issue in the NDP? You know how this affects people, but it's like, "Well, we don't wanna rock the boat, you know. We'll, we'll, we'll look out for you."

Travis Bader: Well, you need, you need leaders with courage. Exactly. You need people with courage. And I think that might be the underlying crux of everything that we're dealing with, is laws and regulations are being implemented based on fear and emotion.

People are making decisions based on fear, and you need people to stand up and be able to say the uncomfortable thing- Be open to reasonable persuasion- Yeah. Mm-hmm ... but be based in something that makes sense, that there's logic behind it, and a plan that actually will affect change as opposed to- Yeah

yeah, this'll look good and get us elected.

Blair Hagen: Yeah. And I think BC, uh, BCers understand that now. [00:45:00] Um, so-

Travis Bader: I hope so.

Blair Hagen: E- e- exactly. So we-

Travis Bader: I'm not, I'm not sure I share your, uh, your optimism on that one.

Blair Hagen: Well, I, yeah, I talk to a lot of people.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

Blair Hagen: But, uh, yeah. So we have, uh, uh, two parties. The, uh, uh, BC Conservative Party, OneBC, who understand this is a very, uh, serious issue, understand the, uh, the, the basic issues in- i- involved in it, and, uh, I, I think wanna do, uh, good things, uh, to address it.

Uh, Center Party, I don't know. They haven't said anything. Hmm. Um, some of the other minor, minor parties, but I think we're, you know, uh, obviously it's a BC Conservative, NDP contest.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

Blair Hagen: So I think that's kind of where it stands now.

Travis Bader: Okay. Okay. And you had, uh, you had a couple other points you wanted to talk about as well.

Blair Hagen: Uh, let's see. Yes. Uh- One thing that a lot of people may have noticed recently, and I think, uh, uh, s- uh, s- especially today, and it seemed to break today or the [00:46:00] last couple of days, uh, the, uh, Tumbler Ridge tragedy.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Blair Hagen: Uh, more information has started to come out. Canadian authorities have been very, very, uh, v- very, very, uh, lacking in communication with the public on it for very, for well, frankly, their own reasons.

Travis Bader: Sure.

Blair Hagen: Uh, but, uh, a report did come from, uh, the FBI-

Travis Bader: Yeah ...

Blair Hagen: on what exactly happened, and there was an American connection to it.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Blair Hagen: Uh, and they basically put out more information that had, uh, previously been, uh, available in Canada.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Blair Hagen: Uh, and of course, that's reignited the debate. And of course, uh, the, uh, civil disarmament lobby has jumped all over it because, uh, this is not a public safety issue.

This is not a m- mental health issue for them. This is a, a ban guns issue for them. Mm-hmm. This is a, this is an opportunity for a gun grab, and if they don't exploit it now, they may never get an opportunity again, or certainly, [00:47:00] uh, not for many years. Um-

Travis Bader: Well, I hope their opportunities are, uh, are few and far between.

Blair Hagen: Yeah, exactly. But what re- what has really struck me the way it sort of, uh, come down here, and we do have more information now on what happened and, and, and some of the issues that, uh, that, uh, precipitated this, this tragedy. And, you know, we, we don't get a lot of these in Canada, thank God. Um-

Travis Bader: Nor in the United States.

Blair Hagen: Nor in the United States. It is much- I mean, a, a lot of people, a lot of people like to point there and say, "I don't want that, what, what happens there to happen here." Well, guess what? It does. I mean, eh, just to a lesser extent because there are fewer Canadians.

Travis Bader: I mean, not to diminish the tragedy. Not at all.

Not to di- not to diminish anyone affected and those affected. I was looking as I was preparing this morning, the Rand Corporation did a study on mass public shootings, and they're the less than one half of 1% of shootings in the United States.

Blair Hagen: Yeah. [00:48:00]

Travis Bader: They're tragic. They're sensational. And other studies that, uh, I was looking up would point to fame-seeking being the motivator in some of these shootings.

Blair Hagen: Yeah.

Travis Bader: And we just feed right into it by making it the thing that everyone talks about- Yeah,

Blair Hagen: yeah ...

Travis Bader: over and over again.

Blair Hagen: Yeah, if you watch CNN, you think it happens every day, you know? Right. Uh, a- and, uh, there are agendas at play here. There are politics at play here, and that's largely what it's based on. But as it affects the, the issue in Canada today, um- And it, it, it is centralized on that gun grab.

Mm-hmm. How big a gun grab can we get, get going on here? And so anyways, Canadian media, Canadian mainstream media, uh, have jumped on again, uh, certainly number one, uh, the SKS rifle. And ever since the orders in council got going, I mean, that was the big question. Because the- Right ... you know, this is the most, uh, commonly-owned, what you would call [00:49:00] a, uh, uh, a military, uh, uh, style semi-automatic rifle.

I mean, it's, it's a Cold War relic. It's an antique now.

Travis Bader: But- They're cheap, or at least they were.

Blair Hagen: Yeah. But, yeah. At least they were. But, uh, uh, it, it be- it becomes a symbol for, uh, uh, the, uh, civil disarmament lobby, okay? If we can get that gun, then we can show the world that we, we here in Canada, uh, take this stuff seriously.

Travis Bader: Well, they're always gonna be a symbol. It used to be the AR-15, right? That was the symbol.

Blair Hagen: Yeah.

Travis Bader: And now it's, "Okay, we'll move to the SKS." Back in the day, like, people who are younger might not, um- Might, might not, uh, know about it, but they realized that short barrel 25 and 32 caliber handguns, 105 millimeter or less, and tho- those are prohibited unless- Yeah

unless you've got it, and you've owned it before, then you're grandfathered or- Unless,

Blair Hagen: unless you're licensed and registered and grandfathered, yeah.

Travis Bader: Or you've inherited it, or you're in a competitive shooting [00:50:00] sport. And they all, all these little exemptions in here, and they... Actually, if they look at the law, it says 25 and 32, not .25 and .32- Yeah

32. I don't know why no one's pointed out, I haven't seen anyone point that one out. But that came out, and they say, "Well, these are Saturday night specials, these little guns." All

Blair Hagen: of them are.

Travis Bader: Right. I mean, and then that was a term that was used for a cheap handgun that's used at the local liquor store to rob the- Yeah

bank, whatever it is, and then they ditch it, and then they move on.

Blair Hagen: Sat- Saturday night special was the assault-style rif- uh, assault-style term of the 1980s.

Travis Bader: That's right. And then, and it all goes to different- And so people are like, "Well, look at these crime guns. We're gonna-" Yeah "... get rid of them." Well, those other people who owned them, they said, "Well, hold on a second."

At that time, of course, those handguns were registered.

Blair Hagen: Yeah.

Travis Bader: And these cheaper, more affordable handguns represented the mass majority of what they had [00:51:00] as registered firearms on their paper.

Blair Hagen: W- What, what they, what, what they wanted to do, what they decided to do was, "We wanna ban half the handguns in Canada."

Right. "How do we

Travis Bader: do that?" What better way to eliminate the majority of the- Yeah ... guns that we know where they are, 'cause they're registered.

Blair Hagen: Right.

Travis Bader: So you have the two sides. Well, it's a Saturday night special, and it's gonna stop this-

Blair Hagen: It's not suitable for target shooting.

Travis Bader: And then you got the other side- It's so true.

that says, well, this is a big chunk they can take out of easily identifiable- Yeah ... handguns. And some people say, "Well, better go back and get that tinfoil hat."

Blair Hagen: Oh, yeah.

Travis Bader: Well, I don't know. The best predictor of future performance is past performance. We've seen it time and time again. I would say that you're right.

What better way to ban half of the guns out there than just by swiping those one off. Right now, when you talk about the SKS, it is the most common hunting rifle used by indigenous groups all across Canada. Yes. It, it's, uh, ammo's cheap. It's a cheap gun.

Blair Hagen: It, [00:52:00] it, it has been imported in surplus quantities since the early 1980s.

Uh, it, it's, it's just, uh, you know, in, in Canadian gun culture, it's bec- it's become an icon, a symbol. It's become that common firearm that most of us own, that sort of thing. Right. Okay? And again, uh, you know, the civil disarmament lobby looks at this ideologically because, uh, uh, they, this is a culture that they want to destroy, okay?

Everybody we're talking to today, everything that we experience in our daily lives, they want to remove that from Canadian society.

Travis Bader: I, I agree based

Blair Hagen: on their

Travis Bader: actions.

Blair Hagen: End of story. End of

Travis Bader: story. Why do you think that is? Like, let- let's, let's play devil's advocate a little bit. Let- let's steel man this argument.

Blair Hagen: Why do I think that is? Well, I, I, I don't. Uh-

Travis Bader: It's hard. It's hard. Like, this is not an easy process.

Blair Hagen: Can I borrow your tinfoil hat?

Travis Bader: Absolutely.

Blair Hagen: No, no, I was only kidding. There you go. I was only kidding.

Travis Bader: You're putting it on.

Blair Hagen: Okay.

Travis Bader: There you go.

Blair Hagen: All right. Um, so-

Travis Bader: It's the [00:53:00] first time I've actually been able to bring it into the, uh, the screen here.

Blair Hagen: Yeah, okay. All right. Got one of my own. There you

Travis Bader: go.

Blair Hagen: Uh, no, seriously, um, w- why do I think they wanna do it? It, it, it is an ideological, um... It, it's a religion for them, okay? It's like st- it's like stamping out sin. Well, everybody wants to stamp out sin. Look at what it does to our society, all that awful stuff that happens.

So if we can do things like, you know, uh, you know, ban this substance here and ban that substance there and, you know, ma- make a law about this. I mean, uh, make a law against bad words.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

Blair Hagen: Don't, don't say bad words, uh, uh, against people.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

Blair Hagen: Okay? You know, you can think, you can think what you wanna think, and if it comes out the wrong way, well, you know, we're gonna have to punish you.

Now, obviously, uh, you know, people with ill intent, uh, are going to, uh, you know, uh, abuse their, uh, abuse their right of free- freedom of expression. But we have laws to address that. We have a whole criminal code that addresses that sort of thing, you know? You [00:54:00] targeted a, you target a specific group and call for violence or some sort of negative action against them, that's, that's actionable.

That's, there's, that is provided for in the criminal code. But why don't we pass a few more laws just to, you know, restrict people and govern people and kind of, you know, change things so people don't feel so bad and don't have to suffer, you know, um, you know, uh, frustration, embarrassment, that sort of thing.

It's just the nice thing to do, right? And maybe it'll reduce that. Now- And it's the same thing with, uh, with firearms. And, uh- Well- I, I'm willing to go, you know, some people will say, "I'm willing to give up, give, give up some of my rights if, uh, you know, it'll, if it, if it'll make people safer or if it'll make society safer or, or, or, or that sort of thing."

I

Travis Bader: think everybody is, but prove it. Pr- does it actually make police safer?

Blair Hagen: Oh. Yeah, it, it does it, but okay, let us pass these laws and we'll prove it.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Blair Hagen: Now it's the law. Now what are you going to do? And I think with, certainly with [00:55:00] firearms in Canada, they have done that, and it has been proven that firearms laws targeting, targeting, uh, law-abiding people, uh, I always have to come back and, and, and use that term, uh, licensed firearms owners operating within the law who are always, uh, take the brunt of these laws and regulations because I think, I, we can agree now, I think it's w- widely agreed that, uh, none of these laws have any effect on the criminal misuse of firearms or criminals.

Okay? I mean, all of the emphasis-

Travis Bader: I mean- ...

Blair Hagen: is

Travis Bader: on- There's enough studies out there. There's enough, the chiefs of police, the different police departments- Yeah ... like, "We're not getting behind this. It's not-" Right ... "effecting a change. Why would we waste our manpower and our money and our budget to p- go after something that isn't the root cause?"

Now, what would you say if it's like a religion for them- Yes ... and we're gonna go, let's say us and them, um, what would you say to the, to the thems? Let's say it's like guns are a religion to us.

Blair Hagen: I think it's a little more [00:56:00] complicated than that. I mean, I, I, you know, I can, I could understand that, that assertion.

I really could

Travis Bader: From an outside perspective.

Blair Hagen: From, from an outside perspective, yeah, I, I, I, I could understand why somebody would say that. But boy, is it way more complicated than that. I mean, it's based on history, it's based on technology, it's based on culture, and all of it is different, you know, given the particular country that you're talking about.

I mean, and, and I, I've just covered the basics there. Okay?

Travis Bader: I think on both sides, firearms represent a, uh, an idea of competency And I think a lot of gun people might say, "Nah, nah, nah." But if, if you take a step back and you look at where the fear comes from-

Blair Hagen: Yeah ...

Travis Bader: I think there's a level of fear, power, control, and I think it's- comes from a level of perceived competency.

Mm. And one side says they're gonna be a much more competent, uh, threat if they have firearms, and firearms [00:57:00] owners will say, "Well, I, I want this gun. It looks really cool. I mean, it does the same thing as another gun," because of the feeling of, um, competency that it can imbue upon, and it, uh, I'll be able to shoot my targets better or whatever it might be.

But I think- And this is- ... that's where the fear comes in.

Blair Hagen: Yeah, and this is the whole, uh, controversy over modern sporting rifles.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Blair Hagen: Okay? Um,

Travis Bader: it- no- It's, you're too competent.

Blair Hagen: Uh, well, no, but- Oh, really? Oh, so you, you, you feel that I'm gonna be too competent and, uh, yeah, and it's a big part of it. It's like, uh, uh, they suspect every Ca- uh, every Canadian who lawfully owns a firearm, yeah, they do believe that we're a danger to public safety, okay?

Uh, the civil disarmament lobby, the government of Canada, we're the danger.

Travis Bader: No, you're not the danger. The firearm's the danger, and at any point you could become the danger, but the firearm over there, what happens if somebody unauthorized gets ahold of it? We just can't have that out there. And so I'm, I'm gonna play back and forth a little bit here- Okay.

Yeah ... because I think it's important that people- Sure ... [00:58:00] listen, I, I, I know where I stand 'cause I spend a great deal of time thinking about this. Yep. I think I know where you stand- Sure ... 'cause you- Yeah ... spend a great deal of time thinking about this. But I, I don't think most people who casually look at it-

Blair Hagen: Yeah

Travis Bader: go to that extent, and I, and I don't know, I'm not entirely certain that those who would wish to take the firearms have steel-manned their argument because I think if they did, they'd come to a conclusion that's, that's very different from the approach you're taking.

Blair Hagen: Sh- sure. But, I mean, it's not based on that in the first place.

It is not based on public safety. This is an ideological agenda. It's a religion, okay? And there's a lot of components to, to that original, and the way- There's money. Certainly, and the way they wanna shape societies, okay? And, uh, how do you do that? You do the, you largely do that f- uh, through, uh, law, uh, legislation, which affects the culture.

Mm. Okay? And of course, uh, it's a generational thing. I mean, if the, uh, next generation did not, uh, experience the rights and [00:59:00] freedoms of the previous generation or the generation before that or the generation before that, how can they know what they've lost?

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Blair Hagen: Okay? Um, there are practical problems with that, and I think they're experiencing, experiencing that now.

Mm. Okay? When you take, y- this is the biggest gun grab in Canadian history, okay? We've had other gun grabs in the past, minor ones, early 1990s- But they were lower numbers of firearms. "Oh, we're just gonna do these because they're, they're, they're too dangerous to, uh, to, to be owned." Mm-hmm. And in some cases, they did things like licensing and registration and grandfathering for those firearms, but they were gun grabs of a lesser degree than what we have now.

Travis Bader: And think about that. I, I'd- I'm just gonna... I know you've thought about it-

Blair Hagen: Yeah ...

Travis Bader: but I'm gonna ask the audience to think about that. These guns are evil. They're gonna cause problems. But you can keep it in your safe because you've had it before. But, you know, new people come in and you can't have it, but we still got all these guns floating around out there 'cause they're evil.

Blair Hagen: Yeah.

Travis Bader: The, the same with the OIC [01:00:00] guns. They've just been sitting in people's safes the entire time.

Blair Hagen: Exactly, and, uh, back to the controversy of the modern sporting rifle. How many AR-15s are or were used in offenses in Canada?

Travis Bader: Let me close my eyes and see what number I see.

Blair Hagen: I, I, I, I'm sure there were at least one or two over the last 20 years.

There were high-profile, uh, incidents of that happening. And of course, anything that looks, uh, anything that looks like an AR-15, well, boy, boy, that's, uh ... It's like you said before, I mean, guns are sexy. Sex sells, right? That's it. So if you can put that on the evening news and create a, a big issue. Well, how many of these firearms are, are actually been used in offenses like this?

Well, not that many, but it could happen.

Travis Bader: W- was it Nietzsche who said that morality has an aesthetic? Like, you step on a spider, and that's good. You just saved everyone here. You step on a butterfly, and you're an evil person.

Blair Hagen: E- ex- exactly. Right? I mean, and, and that's actually a, a, a good analogy. Okay? But [01:01:00] again, it's, it's wrapped up in, in, in things like culture, society, uh, forming culture, forming societies, that sort of thing.

And the narratives that are coming out now, which are very disturbing, I mean, around the SKS rifle. Can you imagine if the, uh, a new OIC dropped affecting the SKS rifle? Can you imagine what would, uh, the results for that can be? I have, because I've considered it.

Travis Bader: Okay. I, I can imagine, uh, a lot of non-compliance on a non-restricted firearm.

Blair Hagen: But they already have that.

Travis Bader: Right.

Blair Hagen: Okay?

Travis Bader: They, they already have a lot of non-compliance.

Blair Hagen: E- even with, uh, you know, even the voluntary, you know, p- uh, uh, portion of the program, which fell flat on its face. Mm-hmm. And they learned that, hey, these people aren't so willing to give these, these things up. But, I mean, uh, a firearm, which is in a, is, uh, present in such m- numbers in Canada, like the SKS rifle, I mean, it, it is literally the Winchester 94 of today.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

Blair Hagen: Okay? I mean, it's just the do-all rifle.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Blair Hagen: For ... I have this rifle [01:02:00] because, uh, it was, uh, it, it was, it was relatively cheap to buy. Right. The ammunition was available. I can do all kinds of completely legal and legitimate things with it. Right. And, uh, therefore I own it. And- I

Travis Bader: remember my first one I bought from Lever Arms.

Blair Hagen: Yeah.

Travis Bader: Back in the day, from Alan Lever. Uh, and, and I think it was 50 bucks when I- Yeah ... uh, paid for it.

Blair Hagen: I think I bought my first one from, uh, Tom Bongalas.

Travis Bader: Oh, yes.

Blair Hagen: Yeah, Castle Armor.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Blair Hagen: Yeah. But, uh, yeah, no, I mean, it's, it's just adding to a problem that you're, you're, you're still not ... And, and plus, how is that going to, uh, improve the situation nationally, politically?

Because you've already got the majority of provinces of Canada saying, "Look, we're not down with this." Hmm. You know, "We're not, we're, we're not going to assist you." Majority of law enforcement agencies saying- We don't support this. You want our involvement, we don't have the logistics or manpower to do this, okay?

So how are you going to... They cannot collect all of the firearms that they've already targeted. How are they gonna collect every SKS rifle in Canada? Mm-hmm. They can't, [01:03:00] and they know it. But again, it comes back to politics, because in certain quarters it would look very good.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Blair Hagen: Right? But they're not concerned about the ramifications on Canadians or Canada.

They're just concern- concerned about their narrow ideological agenda, their religion. They just wanna be able to say, "We did it."

Travis Bader: And a lot of times it's not so much ... It ... Sure, I, I, I will ascribe to the, uh, the narrow ideological agenda, but I can't paint everybody with that brush. Uh, I think some of them also play into, "Man, if we take this approach and our opposition says the opposite, look at how bad they're gonna look," right?

Yeah. "They're not gonna have the SLO, the social license to operate- Yeah, yeah ... that we currently operate under," right? Uh, we will look like we're doing the good thing, and they're just gonna be looking terrible, right?

Blair Hagen: Sure. Yeah. I, I, I don't they, I don't think they have that today. I, I, I think there's a lot of- What, their social license?

No. And I think that by evidence of the fact that provincial governments are not, uh, on board with this, [01:04:00] because they're faced with the, the realities of it, okay?

Travis Bader: I, I think they're, federally, I think they're looking for a way to get out, right? A, a way to back. And we might just be finding in the, uh, upcoming court case.

Blair Hagen: Yeah. Oh, yes, uh, I did want to address that. Thank you for bringing that up. Yeah, as, uh, most people who certainly watch your pod- podcast know that there is a Supreme Court challenge to the Orders in Council, um, coming up in November. And, uh, this was, uh, this was, uh, started by the CCFR, uh, who are the, uh, prin- principal litigant on this, and, uh, uh, have been joined by a lot of, uh, different groups, uh, individuals as interveners.

Um- And N- N- NFA was not, uh, in on this at the beginning. We, we had just gotten off the, uh, the, uh, uh, the other court challenge to the OICs, which, which were not successful.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Blair Hagen: We, we, we were not successful in our arguments. Uh, that particular court challenge failed, and we're- at that point in time, we're thinking, "Do we wanna start [01:05:00] investing in another court challenge?"

And it w- at that time, it was like, "No, we don't have the money to do this, and frankly, court challenges are not the way to, uh, uh, to, uh, change firearms laws in Canada- Well- ... generally speaking."

Travis Bader: I remember at the time when the CCFR, uh, started it, there was a lot of, a number of videos coming out. "We don't think this is the right way to go, but, you know, you're the members, and so we're- Yeah

gonna go forward with this." And, um, but I, I think they- Ev- ev- ... shared the same sentiment.

Blair Hagen: Yeah. Ev- every individual, every organization has to make its own choice. That's

Travis Bader: right.

Blair Hagen: And it, and it's based on your own criteria.

Travis Bader: Yep.

Blair Hagen: Great, fine, good. But we had to sit, sit back and go, "Look, we put a lot of money into that case, and, uh, our arguments were not successful.

We gotta sit back and think of another strategy." Mm. Uh, CCFR started the case, and, uh, okay. Well, you- we're just not prepared to intervene at this time. We'll see where it goes. And then, uh, others joined in, and then f- finally, uh, and you remember this very well [01:06:00] because you were part of it, uh, we be- became a- aware of a Vancouver lawyer named Jason Gratal.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Blair Hagen: Uh, former, uh, head of the BC Civil Liberties Union.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Blair Hagen: And, uh, I remember he approached us and said, "Look, you, you've, you've gotta hear this guy out, okay? He's got a, he's got a excellent argument on this. It's a winning argument, and if you guys are considering intervening, uh, this is the guy you should be talking to."

Travis Bader: Jason's extremely smart. Yeah. And he's extremely principled, and sometimes frustratingly so 'cause he'll spend a lot of time steel-manning the other side, and we'd look at like, "You're giving him too much credit," but he's, he's mentally adept enough to be able to look at it from all the different angles.

You guys have got a winner on your hands here.

Blair Hagen: Yeah, and, uh, he, uh... And that was around the time of our AGM in Vancouver. That's right. And, and we had an opportunity to say, "Hey, come to the AGM and, and, and make your case." And, uh, he did, and, uh, the, the board of directors of [01:07:00] Canada's National Farms Association saw their way clear to- Take 'em on and become intervenors.

And we are intervenors now. Uh, again, I think we have the best argument. I'm not trying to knock the oth- other organizations for what they're doing.

Travis Bader: I, I'm biased. Yeah. I'm biased because I know Jason's work- Yeah ... and I know Jason. And yes, I do think you have one hell of an argument

Blair Hagen: there. Yeah. Uh, it- everybody is working towards the same goal- Mm-hmm

and, and deserves credit for that.

Travis Bader: Yes.

Blair Hagen: But it, it, it took, it took the right timing, it took, uh, the right lawyer, and it took the right argument to get us on board. And, uh, that's sort of the way NFA's always been. I mean, we don't, we don't spend our, our me- our members' money f- f- f- f- mm, excuse me, fri- frivolously.

Uh, we're not looking for e- every court case that comes along. I mean, if we did, we'd be broke in a week, right?

Travis Bader: The court isn't the way to be able to win this-

Blair Hagen: No ...

Travis Bader: in the majority of ways, but when an opportunity like this comes up, I think you guys have made the right move here.

Blair Hagen: E- e- especially at the Supreme Court- Yes

which is Canada's highest court. Uh, if a [01:08:00] firearms case is being heard at Canada's highest court, uh, you have to take that seriously. Mm. And, and we did, and, uh, we're, we're very, very hopeful. Um, f- a lot of people are thinking that, hey, I mean, um, if firearms owners win at the Supreme Court, great, all the OICs are thrown out, we go back to the way it was.

No, that's not the way it works. Mm. Uh, if i- even if we do win, uh, there is going to be, uh- S- several years of working this out, okay? It's not just like everything goes back to the way it was. Mm. Uh, the government's gonna have to make some decisions. If they lose, I think they will be looking at legislation.

I think that legislation will, uh, seek to incorporate, uh, a lot of what, uh, the orders in council do into the legislation. And of course, if legislation passes, it's law. And this has happened before. It happened in the early 1990s, okay? Where, uh, governments, uh, pa- uh, prohibited a lot of farms through OIC, okay?

Uh, like today. [01:09:00] But within a couple of years, that government had introduced legislation, rolled the- Mm ... the orders in council into the legislation. It became law, and at that point in time, it's a done deal.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Blair Hagen: They knew they were on shaky legal ground.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Blair Hagen: Okay? Uh, w- can we legislate through order in council?

Well, we wanna do something about this. We wanna ban these guns. We wanna do something about it, okay? '

Travis Bader: Cause we made a promise. Because-

Blair Hagen: We made, we made a promise, and it was popular with this- Mm ... s- this, uh, you know, vocal minority. Mm-hmm. Okay? Um, but it's like, is this the ultimate solution? No. I, I think the lawyers at, the, the government lawyers at that time knew that, "Look, we can do this, but it's going to be vulnerable to legal attack."

Because essentially, what you're doing here is you're legislating through order in council.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Blair Hagen: And that's not the way law is made in Canada.

Travis Bader: No.

Blair Hagen: Okay? We have, we have a parliament.

Travis Bader: We- That's not the way laws should be made in Canada.

Blair Hagen: [01:10:00] I, well, I think, uh, in earlier times, that was the case that was made.

This is not the way laws are made in Canada. Yeah, you can do this- Mm ... but, uh, you're legally vulnerable- Mm ... on this, right? So you better be thinking about legislation. Good. We are. Uh, and that's what they did. And similarly today, um, I don't know if they thought this through. I kinda think they didn't with these orders in council.

I think ... Don't get me started on the Trudeau government because, I mean, it was just literally, you know-

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm ...

Blair Hagen: people running around with their, you know, like chickens with their heads cut off. So I don't think they considered or cared. You know, it's like- You like the clown? Yeah. I think what- You get the

Travis Bader: circus.

Blair Hagen: Yeah, exactly. Um- But th- uh, this government, I don't know. I, I know they've got a real big problem with this i- I know they know they have a real big problem with this issue. I mean, they don't care th- they don't care about the effects on Canadians, you know? It's like, "Oh, oh, really? I mean, you know, you don't know where you stand legally.

Big deal. You're not our people. We don't care." But when it comes to, you know, the courts, I think they take [01:11:00] that a little more seriously. So my prediction would be, I mean, if firearms owners, uh, win at Supreme Court, we're gonna be looking at a period where nothing really changes. I mean, they will have to e- extend, uh, amnesties for possession of these things.

They did that anyway.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Blair Hagen: And they're gonna have to continue to do that because there is no way that they're going to be able to, uh, force a collection- Mm ... of all of the guns affected by OIC. And that's what, what they'll have to do w- while, while they, uh, d- developed and attempt to enact legislation, and that's gonna take like, you know, a year or a couple of years.

And who knows what Canada looks like two years from now. Mm. We don't, we, we d- we don't know.

Travis Bader: Well, that, that doesn't sound like the most positive outlook.

Blair Hagen: Well, I mean, it's reality. But guess what? At least you keep your gun.

Travis Bader: Hmm. For

Blair Hagen: the next few years. And that's the most important th- y- and that's the most important thing because once they're gone, they're gone.

And, you know, I've talked to lots of people from other countries where they did this, and it's like, "Well, no, I had to take it and hand it in," and it was [01:12:00] gone, and it was all over. Done deal. As long as you have your gun, it's still your property.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

So aside from that court case, what else do you... What else does the NFA feel people can do?

Blair Hagen: Oh, my God. I, and, and I get this question all of the time. Of course. And I always, you know, in certain ways I love it because I always get to come back and say, uh, in a lot of cases, the people I'm talking to are already doing it.

'Cause people will come up, uh, come up to me at, uh, gun shows and events and say, "What, what can I be doing right now?" Mm-hmm. And I'll say, "Well, you could be doing this." "I'm already doing that." "Okay, great. Well, you could do this, too." "I'm already doing that."

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Blair Hagen: Um, and, and it's so gratifying after so many years of, of being involved in this and seeing really bad legislation, real bad politics, that sort of thing, that, that people n- in, in the numbers that are out there who, who are educated, know what to do, [01:13:00] and are doing it, um- It, it's just has to continue.

And the most important thing right now is, is, uh, uh, be, uh, politically aware. And if you can be, be politically active. Um, understand what's going on with the law because obviously that's gonna benefit you. You don't want to be out somewhere doing something and not understand the, uh, legal or regulatory ramifications of that, even more so in BC with the BC Firearms Act,

Travis Bader: right?

Yeah. Whoops, rules changed, didn't realize it.

Blair Hagen: Yeah. That's on

Travis Bader: you. I'll just plead ignorance 'cause we all know that's a good excuse.

Blair Hagen: And you, and you can't do that because- Mm-hmm ... you know, w- if you're a firearms owner, the onus is on you. Mm-hmm. It's not on ... The, the onus isn't on them to explain it to you.

Mm-hmm. The onus is on you to, to figure out what's going on.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Blair Hagen: So number one, that's the first thing anybody, anybody who owns a gun should be doing. Number two, be politically active. Join a political party. You know, and it, the political party of, that's closest to your political stripe, and it doesn't matter [01:14:00] what you, what that party is.

You know, if, if you are a dyed-in-the-wool liberal, by all means, join that party, but make firearms an, an issue. And you're gonna have to put up with a ton of crap because people are gonna be calling you out and calling you names and trying to make you feel, um, you know, insignificant or out of the mainstream, that sort of thing.

Um, but it has to be done. You, you gotta step up, and you gotta change the nature and the culture of that party or else it's going to continue. You know, I thought, uh ... I, yeah, I used to think that after long gun registry failed so badly, okay, the li- the liberals, they, they learned their, their lesson. They're not gonna do th- They're not gonna try to do this again.

And, uh, then they were out of power for quite a few years- Mm-hmm ... as you, as you, uh, are aware, and a whole new generation of them came up and went right back at it, that they didn't learn the, uh, uh, from the failures of the past. And frankly, I don't think they cared either. So regardless of w- where you stand politically, [01:15:00] get

If you're a firearms owner, if you care about this issue, get involved and let that party know how you feel about this. We have been wrong on guns We have to stop doing this. It didn't work, and it targeted the wrong people. And it's the same with the NDP, okay? I know there's a lot of NDPers, especially in BC, who own firearms, who care about it as probably as much as we do, okay?

But you gotta get involved with that party because the people who are in control now are working against your rights, your freedoms, and your culture. And if you're willing to say, "Well, I'm, I'm prepared to do that for the, for, for the common good," um, you're part of the problem, because this is a legitimate part of Canadian society, Canadian culture, and also, uh, the culture of British Columbia.

And, uh, it's all of our duty to protect that. Uh, and, and the same thing with the conservative parties as well, even though generally speaking, I mean, they're, they're, they're sort of, uh, more aligned- Mm ... [01:16:00] uh, you know, uh, philosoph- philosophically. A lot of gun owners are conservatives, I mean, on, not just on this issue, but others.

Mm. Um, that has to be, uh, kept up, okay? Because there was a, a, a point in time in this country where that wasn't the case, where the conservative party was not the pro-gun party. It was an anti-gun party, and we suffered because of that. Mm. But, uh, politics changed. A lot of firearms owners, people who care about this issue, got involved politically- That's right

and we changed, we changed the political culture of this country. It's gotta continue, and I, I know we can do it if, if people step up.

Travis Bader: And I like that approach. It's not vote one party, vote the other party. It's vote the one that aligns with you. But-

Blair Hagen: Yeah

Travis Bader: In the way that, and I talk about it before, the social license to operate.

Yeah. People have these ideas of what's permissible or what's not, and that's based typically on the zeitgeist. What- Yeah ... what's everybody, where's the wind blowing? And that maybe that's the thing I should jump [01:17:00] on, 'cause that's what everyone feels strongly about. Right. I think it's blown far enough in one direction that people are starting to realize, like, come on.

I, if I can't afford groceries, I can't afford a place to live, and I, my property rights are, are in question. My, my-

Blair Hagen: My, my kids are not gonna enjoy the same lifestyle that I did growing up.

Travis Bader: Right. I- it's, that social license starts to shift. And when, when people look at it, I, I quite often hear, "What can I do?

I'm just one voice. What can I do? I mean, I don't even know politics." Yeah. "I know I don't like this, but I don't know politics." Well, you know what I would recommend? Hey,

Blair Hagen: hey, you know what?

Travis Bader: What?

Blair Hagen: That was me.

Travis Bader: Yeah. I remember. I remember when you started in the NFA. Yeah. I, I'd been going to the, uh, the Circle Arm Collect and Gun Shows- Yeah

the HAC shows since I've been four years old. Yeah. Five years old, and, uh, I remember when you started, and you, you're at the table, and you're figuring things out, and you're, you're... I remember that. Yeah. Um, and look where you are now.

Blair Hagen: [01:18:00] I, I, I... That was literally me. And, um, but, I mean, it, it was a serious enough situation that I had to make life choices.

Travis Bader: Yeah, but people also say, "But I'm not Blair," right? And, and they'll look, and they'll glorify these people. I, I see people doing it to me. "Well, Trav, sure you can do that, but what can I do?"

Blair Hagen: Hey, hey, you know what?

Travis Bader: I'm no damn different.

Blair Hagen: You know what? Blair is nothing special.

Travis Bader: That's-

Blair Hagen: Okay?

Travis Bader: 100%. I mean- We're all,

Blair Hagen: we're- We're, we're all just regular people.

Travis Bader: Okay? But you know what people can do, for those who don't know, is they can get ChatGPT.

Blair Hagen: Yep.

Travis Bader: Claude. Uh, what- whatever AI program. Set up a project folder and say, "This is something that's concerning to me. I wanna learn more about it." Yeah. And they can start pro- plugging all the stuff in there, and then they say, uh, "Red team this."

Yeah. "Steel man my argument. Can you red team and take..." And, like, it'll start picking holes in where you're at, and you... And maybe it'll change your mind. Yeah. But if it doesn't, and you say- Well, here's what I think is an approach forward. Can you red [01:19:00] team that approach? And then you can say, "Can you take a look at my MPs- Yep

my MLAs?"

Blair Hagen: Exactly. If you're familiar with that technology and, and, and technology, some-

Travis Bader: You don't even really have to be familiar. Some- It's gotten easier

Blair Hagen: and easier ... some technology, by all means- You- ... utilize, utilize that technology.

Travis Bader: If you can use Google- Yeah ... you can use AI to ask these things and set up a project folder.

Yeah. And all of a sudden, you have a voice. Not only that, but you have consistency in how you speak, and you have continuity. Right. An email comes back and says, "Oh, I'd like to learn a little bit more." Right. "What do you mean?" "Oh, okay. Oh, I forget. Where was it? It was, like, three months ago I sent them the, uh, the email."

Blair Hagen: A- a- and you know what? Especially ... God, I hate saying this. The younger people I talk to- ... are, are, are doing that in so many ways. Old man Hagan. And it j- a- and it just, it, it, and it just comes naturally, right? Which I, I, I suppose I gotta say is, is fantastic. And, but, but, I mean, yeah, I mean, if you care about this issue, if you care about this right and [01:20:00] freedom, uh, that is one of the ways you can do it.

But I, I, I think you, uh ... But if your talents are, are falling in, in another way, I mean, if, if you're, y- your expertise-

You're

Travis Bader: afraid of AI. You're afraid of the technology.

Get that tin foil hat on.

Blair Hagen: Um, no, seriously. But I mean, if you're ... y- where your, your strengths lie, I mean, if, if you're interested in the legal aspect of it- Yeah ... man, oh man. I mean, and that is, as you know, this is a big part of the firearms, uh, issue in Canada, is the legal aspect of it. I s- I spent Every day talking to people right across Canada trying to explain what's going on legally.

Because we get calls at NFA and they g- and they get referred to me, and it's like, uh, "I've been charged with this," or, "I don't understand this law or regulation"- Yeah ... or, "This thing is happening. My guns have been seized," that sort of thing, "What do I do? What do I do?" And if you are interested in that part of it, man, give me a call because we need you.

Uh, we need to be able to [01:21:00] explain in real world terms what, uh, what the laws and regulations entail and, and w- how, uh, we can help people. Because I'm only one guy. I mean, and-

Travis Bader: Well, I have some thoughts on that. Okay. And I think the audience probably knows where I'm gonna go. Yeah. But you and I, we can talk after and on, on ways to, uh- Of

Blair Hagen: course

Travis Bader: but I, I strongly, like the legal aspect, I

Blair Hagen: isn't- Also politically. I mean, i- if, if you are a firearms owner, you care about this issue, and you've sorta looked at politics, I mean, we talked about Dan Fr- uh, Dan Fritter earlier. Mm-hmm. He's a guy who did exactly that, okay? I, I know what's- I understand the firearms issue, and I wanna do something good for my community.

I'll get politically involved. He did. We'd love to help you, okay? And, uh, y- you don't have to have a lot of experience. There's a lot of people running in this election, this, in this province, who don't have a lot of experience but wanna represent their communities. And you know what? That's good enough. Uh, government set bureaucracies to actually e- enact p- enact policy, that sort of thing.

You're [01:22:00] there to represent your community. If you're a firearms owner, if you care about this issue, hey, don't feel shy. "Oh, they're not gonna vote for me because I'm a gun owner." That's been proven to be false in the past right across the country. This is not a stigma. In a lot of cases, it's an asset.

Travis Bader: I think, uh, the other part is, like we've got social media, and we've never been so disconnected.

They call it social, but everyone's sitting alone on their own-

Blair Hagen: Oh, I know. I mean, I, I, I remember the early days of the internet and how useful f- uh, it was for organizing firearms owners.

Travis Bader: Sure.

Blair Hagen: And, uh, but, you know, the way it's devel- it, it has developed in really weird ways. Yeah.

Travis Bader: But I also know, I've had mayors and judges and, uh, peop- dentists and doctors and- They all own firearms.

Yeah. Right? The, they're, they walk among us, right? I think if people just got involved in their communities- Yeah ... with their local gun clubs, with their organizations, and we shift the conversation from complaining and [01:23:00] griping about-

Blair Hagen: Ex- exactly. This

Travis Bader: would- ... to let's just go have some fun, and, uh, let's use what we have, get together, have a dinner, go out to the range, if we're into hunting and sport shooting or whatever it might be- Absolutely

or collecting, and exposing others to the normalcy of it all. Because I think for a long time it was all behind closed doors. It's like, "Well, I don't want to tell anybody 'cause I don't want to offend." Well,

Blair Hagen: let's- That, that was the attitude of, uh, the 1970s.

Travis Bader: That's right.

Blair Hagen: And that, that was the little- And

Travis Bader: I think that's why we got here.

Blair Hagen: Yeah. And that, that was a little before my time- Mm ... thank God. But, uh, yeah, no, it was very much like if we just lie low- Yeah ... and, uh, don't make this an issue the way it is in the, uh, excited states, uh, eventually they'll just go away and they'll leave us alone. Didn't happen. Yeah. Didn't work that way, right?

Travis Bader: Now you don't have to be from my cold, dead hands. You don't have to be standing up and wearing this tinfoil hat that I made with, that everyone will view you as, but-

Blair Hagen: But, but you can stand up for Canadian rights, freedoms-

Travis Bader: Right. You, you can- ...

Blair Hagen: and values ...

Travis Bader: right. And you can start pointing out when there are [01:24:00] fear-based politics, and when things don't make sense, and ask-

Blair Hagen: And it happens with every issue, right?

Travis Bader: Every issue.

Blair Hagen: And why, why not firearms? And it is happening with firearms by evidence that the, uh, the government's agenda is failing so badly.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Blair Hagen: So I, you know, it's, it's like we're talking about what can we do, and it sounds like it's already going on, doesn't it?

Travis Bader: Well, I think, I think the more people realize that they aren't alone, that it's okay to talk about-

Blair Hagen: And, and you know what?

I can understand that 'cause I talk to those people because, you know, uh, w- we're part of a community. Mm-hmm. You know, we've known each other for a long time. We know lots of people in the community, but there are people out there who, hey, they're just getting started in this, and they don't have a family background in this, or they don't have friends who got them in it.

You know, I'm just one guy- Yep ... and I've decided that this is interesting to me. I'd like to become involved. Yeah, by all means. We're here.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Blair Hagen: You're, you're here. Yeah. They can contact you. Yeah. They can contact me. Uh, go to your local gun club. Uh, there's all kinds of internet for- uh, or forums on, on this stuff, um, where you can- If that's your thing, yeah

where, where you [01:25:00] can, uh, become involved, and, uh, we're more than happy to help you, and, and educate you, and guide you, and mentor you, and all that good stuff. Yeah. So don't feel alone 'cause you're not alone.

Travis Bader: Well, people look at hockey as Canada's national sport. Really, it's lacrosse, I think is the, uh-

Blair Hagen: Really?

Travis Bader: Uh, originally, yeah. Like, that's Canada's national sport. Originally, yeah. Well, I think still it's, lacrosse is Canada's national sport. Huh. But everyone's, thinks of Canada and hockey.

Blair Hagen: Yeah.

Travis Bader: Everyone, everyone and their dog plays hockey in Canada, or at least has been exposed to it one way or another.

Blair Hagen: Yeah.

Travis Bader: More people use firearms. More people are competitive shooters or p- uh- Absolutely ... go into the range than hockey. You're not alone, and it's, it's not this isolated thing of people in the dark.

Blair Hagen: Yeah.

Travis Bader: It's a perfectly legitimate thing.

Blair Hagen: Absolutely.

Travis Bader: And I think that's the approach that people have to start

Blair Hagen: taking.

And it's part of the culture. Uh, despite what the, what the current federal government or, or some provincial governments might think or might want to see end in this country- ... because there is a concerted effort to do that, it is part of Canadian [01:26:00] culture.

Travis Bader: I saw this American, and they're, this was on social media, and they're like, "Hold on.

If your prime minister in Canada is saying you're preparing for a war- ... with the largest army in the world, why are you taking away everyone's guns?"

Blair Hagen: I, I, I know, right? And they were actually talking about a- they had some cockamamie plan, "Well, we'll, we'll arm 30, 30,000 bureaucrats to- That's right ... you know, resist the American invasion."

I mean, you p- are you people that out to lunch? Oh, my God.

Travis Bader: Yes. Um, anything else we should be talking about?

Blair Hagen: Oh, boy. Well, looking at my l- little list here. No, I think I've covered everything that I wanna talk about. What do you wanna talk about?

Travis Bader: Oh my God. Look at all the stuff I got here. Um, mainly I was, I was...

My biggest thing that I wanted to get across to everybody is the level of personal agency that everybody has. Yeah. You're one person. I'm one person, but I've decided to talk. You've decided to talk. I,

Blair Hagen: I, I don't know, maybe it's a generational thing, maybe it's a family thing. 'Cause I know [01:27:00] there's a lot of people who have different experiences than we had, okay?

Mm-hmm. And maybe don't understand the, uh, um, don't understand the concept of personal agency the same way we do.

Travis Bader: Well, I think that a lot, a lot of effort has been put in to trying to remove that from people- Yeah ... to let people think that they don't have that-

Blair Hagen: Yeah ...

Travis Bader: uh, when in fact they do, and they can affect change positively in their own life, in the lives of their friends and families around them- Yeah

even on a small scale. And I think the only thing necessary for evil to succeed is for good people to sit back and do nothing.

Blair Hagen: A- a- and y- you know what, that, that's, that's certainly the history of this country. Mm. I mean, personal agency, people who had an idea or had an issue, uh, or, or had a goal and wanted to do something about it.

And, uh, I, I, I would say, you know, certainly in the early, early formative years of this country, I think, uh, most people thought that way- Mm ... to one extent or another, and you sort of used that to guide you through life. But [01:28:00] today, I, I- I think

Travis Bader: it's starting to come back. I, I think- Yeah ... AI is enabling people the ability to have a voice.

Blair Hagen: Okay.

Travis Bader: People who have, let's say... So I've talked, I got ADHD, I got all these different ideas.

Blair Hagen: Yeah.

Travis Bader: I can't affect all of them, but you know what? I can affect a lot more now. I, I'm making several different programs at the moment, right? Yeah. I'm not a programmer, but I ask AI how to do it, right?

Blair Hagen: Sure.

Travis Bader: I think we are getting more resources that allow us to be more effective in our day-to-day life if we point it in the right direction.

Right. And you can start looking and say, "Well, actually, yeah, I can do something." Yeah. I'm, I'm... Why is, why is that person's voice being heard more than my voice when I think I've got a better opinion and, or a- E- e- ... a better solution?

Blair Hagen: E- e- exactly. I mean, uh, it's your right, and I would say it's, it's your duty.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Blair Hagen: Uh, it's, uh, it's, it's a civic right and duty- Mm ... to do that. If you see something's wrong, i- if you see something that's, uh, that you're concerned about in your community, in your province, your country.

Travis Bader: You know, that takes pride though, and that takes pride [01:29:00] in where you're from, and that's the other thing that's been- Yeah

eroded for such a long time, and I see that coming back. I see that it was eroded very aggressively, because if you can re- Pre- pretty much

Blair Hagen: so, yeah.

Travis Bader: Yeah. If you can reduce, uh, pride in where you're at, then what are you fighting for, right?

Blair Hagen: Yeah, e- e- exactly, and it's like, if you can... Or, or if you can, uh, uh, i- if you can capture pride, this is what Canadian pride looks like, and if you don't subscribe to this, uh, y- you, you're out of the norm.

You, you don't count.

Travis Bader: Yeah, that's right. No. You gotta, you have gotta be hyper inclusive- E-

Blair Hagen: exactly ...

Travis Bader: which means excluding those who aren't. I mean, the, the natural byproduct of a lot of these things- Sure ... if you take it to the furthest degree, is the opposite of what you're looking at.

Blair Hagen: Yeah, exactly. Pri- you know, uh, Ottawa does not dictate what Canadian pride is.

Travis Bader: That's right.

Blair Hagen: Okay? It, it's Canadians who do that.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Blair Hagen: So, absolutely, and, and I think you're right. I think it is happening. Uh, I, I accept that technology is enhancing it.

Travis Bader: I, I, I just know that the, yes, the laws are [01:30:00] important. Yes- Yeah ... some battles need to be fought in court, but even the best airtight battle, when you go to court, as the lawyers will tell you, you've got an 80% chance of winning.

Blair Hagen: And uh, I've been there, and I've done that.

Travis Bader: That's right.

Blair Hagen: Okay.

Travis Bader: Yes, I believe the political side is important, but politics can be fickle. I mean- S-

Blair Hagen: uh, what, what do they say? Politics fo- follows cult- culture.

Travis Bader: That's right. Yeah. I think the culture is the biggest thing that needs to change. Yeah. Like, people need to just be strong representatives.

Blair Hagen: And, and has, and has changed, and uh, I, I, I would say- Is changing ... I would say, uh, yeah, certainly, and after the failure of long gun registry in Canada, uh, and, uh, legislation that finally ended it in, uh, 2012, um- Uh, our community flourished.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Blair Hagen: I mean, 2012 to, I, I, I wanna say 2015, uh, 2016, and even after, I mean, even after, uh, the, uh, the, the election of, uh, of Justin Trudeau, we had a flourishing community.

Travis Bader: Uh- You know what else brought people together?

Blair Hagen: Yeah.

Travis Bader: Shared adversity. [01:31:00] COVID.

Blair Hagen: A- a- absolutely. But after, after 2020, things started to get weird. Mm. Okay? Yes. And now we're living in a new world. Mm-hmm. Okay? But, I mean, during that time, uh, uh, Canadian, uh, firearms culture flourished because, um, we had, we had enacted firearms law reform.

Uh, we had, uh, a flourishing of, uh, shooting activities, competitions, uh, you know, uh, things like collecting, even with the adversity that we had, uh, uh, faced from the past. Mm. And it, it, it flourished, and it's still there, and it, it has been negatively affected by what we have been facing since 2020, especially with the OICs.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Blair Hagen: Uh, and other legislation, Bill C-21, uh, the handgun freeze, that sort of thing. Mm-hmm. Uh, no new competitors. That's... Sorry, sorry, uh, uh, Canadians. You cannot compete in your chose- chosen sport anymore. Well, why? I'm not a danger to public safety. We have a licensing system in Canada. Isn't s- that supposed to take care of it?

Nope. Nope. You're not allowed to own a handgun. [01:32:00] And this is supposed to stop crime. Come on.

Travis Bader: Huh. Um, interesting. I'm going to have to check back on my notes about that one as well. But, um-

Blair Hagen: Yeah ...

Travis Bader: in the same way that, uh, central storage can be an individual's-

Blair Hagen: Yep ...

Travis Bader: uh, house, uh, recognized competitive shooting- Yep

is something that there's a level of control that the industry can also take over. I mean, there's- Certainly ... there's a couple places that are, um, currently recognized, but there's nothing stopping-

Blair Hagen: I, I, I'm aware of that, but it, it's, it's in a very, very limited way. It is. And it's very narrowly interpreted.

And, uh- I agree ... in, in, in terms of the continued development of Canadian shooting sports, uh, it, it, it's not going to have, uh, the effect, uh, s- uh, it's certainly not going to, uh, gonna have the opportunities that we had before.

Travis Bader: Well- Yes, and- ... uh, what, what I'm gonna say is I'll plant the [01:33:00] seed in the listeners, the people out there, to approach these issues in a similar fashion because negotiating an agreement, getting to yes without giving in, right?

There's- Certainly. Have you ever been to a Schützenfest, or have you heard of a Schützenfest?

Blair Hagen: I know what a Schützenfest is, yes.

Travis Bader: I'd love to go to a German Schützenfest. Yeah. And the whole city gets involved, and they've got- Yeah ... uh, uh, well, what are those? Pretzels and, uh- Yeah ... bratwurst, and the beer comes out afterwards, and it's- Yeah

a, uh, annual event of great pride that these cities- Yeah, yeah ... and counties will take part in. And they'll, it's a marksmanship competition, and they parade everyone down the street, and it becomes a part of the social fabric.

Blair Hagen: Right.

Travis Bader: Um, I'd love to organize a Schützenfest in, in Canada, actually. And I wonder if, uh, people who, um- I wonder if there's other people out there who'd wanna do that.

I wonder if some of these things could be a recognized activity.

Blair Hagen: I, I, I wouldn't be amazed if there wasn't.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Blair Hagen: And hey, I mean, [01:34:00] there's, you know, a lot of Canadians of Eur- European origin who probably experienced, experienced that, and would like to experience that again here.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Blair Hagen: Okay? So yeah, absolutely.

And, uh, yeah, it, it can-

Travis Bader: I'm not saying it's a solution, but-

Blair Hagen: It can definitely be woven into Canadian culture, okay?

Travis Bader: From the social side, it brings exposure.

Blair Hagen: I, I, and, and I think, you know, at, at one point in time in, in this country, it was like that. I mean, not like the Schützenfest, but I mean, the gun club was one of the, the central focuses of- Sure

of, of the, uh, you know, the town or the area. You know-

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm ...

Blair Hagen: you know, we're, we're, we're go- what- we're what are we doing? Potluck at the gun club, you know- Right ... that sort of thing, right?

Travis Bader: I, I think there's an opportunity for that kind of a culture to be, uh, if- Yeah ... if people are aware of it and they know that it's out there, and if there's a, an appetite for it.

Blair Hagen: Yeah.

Travis Bader: More and more, I'm, I'm watching our generations want to be connected and starting to put the phones down and looking for the IRL, the in real life, uh, activities.

Blair Hagen: Yeah, yeah. By all means, I mean, you know, uh, we understand why you need your phone and how you use a, [01:35:00] use your f- phone, but I mean, don't, don't make it your whole life, right?

There's, there's actual people out there that you can talk to, that you can experience.

Travis Bader: Well, I'll, uh, I'll, I'll throw those things out there. If people want to, uh, contact me about crazy ideas, uh, or organizing events like this, I'm, I'm happy. I got lots of ideas-

Blair Hagen: Yeah,

Travis Bader: yeah ... as does the NFA.

Blair Hagen: Yeah. Uh, w- we're a l- a little bit more limited by our mandate, obviously, but- Of,

Travis Bader: of course

Blair Hagen: yeah.

Travis Bader: Okay. Well, they can contact the NFA for, uh- Yeah ... legal advice, and, uh, you

Blair Hagen: know, direction. Legal advice, political advice, direction. Uh, if you wanna get involved with a great organization, I mean, everybody looks, uh, stateside and, you know, uh, the way firearms rights are viewed there and the organizations that have, uh, uh, at least at the federal level, uh, uh, prevented a lot of really, really bad legislation.

Um, it, it is what it takes. You have to be politically active. Mm. You have to be legally active. Uh, y- you know, uh, the, uh, the gun debate and the gun politics of the United States of America have been imported into Canada by [01:36:00] the, uh, Liberal Party and the civil disarmament lobby. It wasn't us, okay? I mean, the, you know, Canada- at one point in time, you know, Canadians were kinda going, "Yeah, why do you guys need to be so strident about this?"

Travis Bader: Mm.

Blair Hagen: And now we know, you know, uh, w- uh, through very, very bitter experience-

Travis Bader: Mm ...

Blair Hagen: which will not be forgotten.

Travis Bader: Anything else we should talk about that we haven't?

Blair Hagen: I don't know. I can't think of anything

Travis Bader: I think there's been a lot in here. I've gone on a couple good tangents- Yeah ... that people can, uh, pull me back on, or hey, maybe they, maybe they agree.

Uh, like I, I strongly believe that if you wanna make a pol- a political change, you gotta make it easy for the politician, and if the social license behind that shows that it's not gonna be... It's gonna be politically expedient for them to acquiesce to your-

Blair Hagen: And, and you know what's happening right now. My God.

Look at, look at, look at the provincial parties. We, we have, you know, uh, certainly two nominally pro-gun parties. Mm. Look at it federally, okay? You [01:37:00] know, we have a conservative party, uh, of today which embraces, uh, you know, the rights and freedoms that, that, uh, that we, that we celebrate, okay? It wasn't always like that.

Travis Bader: And I think rights and freedoms are the way to approach it too because-

Blair Hagen: Yeah ...

Travis Bader: uh, the gun can be rather divisive, but when you start making it make sense into people's- Yeah ... worlds who have no interest in firearms- Yeah ... which is the mass, l- the, the- Uh,

Blair Hagen: and- ... majority of people ... and you know what? I understand that, and if y- y- you know, uh, you don't like guns, you don't want them in your life, fine.

I understand that. I don't have a problem with that. But when you start, uh, uh- Saying that you

Travis Bader: can't have them ...

Blair Hagen: ad- ad- vo- advocating for legislative agendas that disarm people and seize their, uh, seize their lawfully acquired property, then I'm sorry, we've gotta part ways.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Blair Hagen: You know? It's, it's just that simple.

It's based on, it's based on principles. I don't think Canadians, uh, believe that at the core. I think a lot of people think, you know, "All right, you know, let's just try it and see if it works." That was the argument back in the day. If it doesn't work, then we know, but a lot of Canadians suffered [01:38:00] because of that, people who had no business being targeted by gun laws.

Travis Bader: Yeah, I think a lot of the Canadians look at what's acceptable. Right. What's an acceptable firearm? Well, what would you use a firearm for? Well, only sport shooting and hunting. So those are your acceptable things that you can do with it.

Blair Hagen: Well, no, not, not so much anymore. Uh, uh- Well, a lot ... now increasingly, increasingly self-defense.

Travis Bader: So we'll, we'll talk about acceptable, and we'll, we'll draw this out a little bit bigger.

Blair Hagen: Okay.

Travis Bader: So what, what's acceptable? It's gonna be, um, sport shooting and hunting, right? All right. So for the longest time, that's what everyone was getting their license for. '

Blair Hagen: Kay.

Travis Bader: How many times, I've been doing the course since 1994-

Blair Hagen: Yeah

Travis Bader: people come through, "Well, I want it for self-defense," right?

Blair Hagen: Yeah, yeah.

Travis Bader: Oh, you can't say that. Get,

Blair Hagen: get the, get, get the, get the same thing in

Travis Bader: the store. You could, you had to leave your arms there. Yeah. "Well, we can't do... Well, you're supposed to say it's for this, or you're supposed to say it's for that," but th- those are the socially acceptable things you [01:39:00] can use it for.

Sure. And, and then the people take that argument further and say, "Well, what kind of firearm is acceptable for, for hunting?"

Blair Hagen: Yeah.

Travis Bader: Surely, uh, you only need so many rounds. Surely it can't be too powerful. B- but that conflates an argument. Yeah. It's like saying, what's an acceptable vehicle for driving? Well, are we saying practical or- acceptable because I might have a, a, a F1 race car that will get me to the grocery store and back, but it's not practical I- I-

Blair Hagen: you know, if you wanna commute to work in a Lamborghini, I- that's perfectly fine with me.

Go for it. You know, that's, that's your business.

Travis Bader: But with the fear-based politics that I've been seeing- Yeah ... growing more and more, and the, the general fear that's sown through social media-

Blair Hagen: Yeah ...

Travis Bader: um- Again ... self-defense has become a more readily acceptable A reason for people to own firearms

Blair Hagen: Yeah. A- and that, that attitude was adopted back, uh, in, in a different Canada, okay- Hmm

when Canada was a [01:40:00] relatively safe society, when we, we didn't have the problems that we're facing today, and most Canadians had similar values. It's different now, and in some ways it's better, and in some ways it's worse, okay?

Travis Bader: I'd still say we're relatively safe. We're a relatively safe place to live.

Blair Hagen: Well, that, yeah, in, in some ways I agree with you, and in some ways-

Travis Bader: Sure

Blair Hagen: uh, I, I don't, okay? I mean, it really is b- is based on your experience, okay? Mm-hmm. I d- I don't wanna, you know, uh, talk down or, or, or downplay the, you know, the benefits of Canada and Canadian society.

Travis Bader: Sure.

Blair Hagen: We, we, we both enjoy that, okay? I'm not saying that, uh, you know, there's rampant crime in the streets and that, and that sort of thing.

And, you know, people who use the United States as some s- some kind of, you know, uh, uh, uh, whipping boy for this, it, it, it's not like that in all places, okay? There are dangerous parts of Canada, there are dangerous parts of the United States, and there are normal parts of both, both countries, okay? But-

Travis Bader: But the idea of denying an individual the ability to protect themselves or their family- [01:41:00]

Blair Hagen: I think that's-

regardless ... I think that's been called into question lately.

Travis Bader: That's right.

Blair Hagen: And we have had some very good legal precedents set. A- a- as a result of it, we've had incidents where people who have been forced to defend themselves- Mm-hmm ... have been exonerated. Hmm. Did not face, uh, criminal charges, did not face firearms prohibitions.

Although certainly, uh, you know, previously in Canada, that was the usual thing. "Well, uh, you know, it's un- it's too bad that you, uh, had to shoot that guy who broke in and tried to attack your family, but we're gonna have to charge you."

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. "

Blair Hagen: With, with, with what?" "Well, you know, we're, we're just required to."

And, and a lot of Crowns would, would approach it on that basis. It's like it, y- you know, in the United States where a distri- distri- a district, uh, attorney would take a look at the case and go, "Well, this is a clear case of self-defense. I'm not, I'm not gonna pursue this." Mm-hmm. In Canada, Crowns would go, "Well, you know, it, it, it looks like it's self-defense, but I think we're obligated to, uh, lay a charge here just to show that we don't want to encourage vigil-" Right

"vigilantism."

Travis Bader: They [01:42:00] don't want the optics of self-defense being

Blair Hagen: accepted. You know, we're, we're, you know, uh, we'll probably lose. You know, he'll probably get off, but I think we should do it just to show that we're serious about these things. I think that's starting to change a bit. I

Travis Bader: agree. I'm seeing that, too.

Blair Hagen: Yeah.

Travis Bader: Okay, Blair, I think, uh, unless there's anything else that you wanted to say.

Blair Hagen: Oh, I- We- ... I'm about talked out.

Travis Bader: Well, I really appreciate you bringing this up and being on the podcast, and I know, uh, it won't be long before you're on again, I'm sure. Oh. Thank you.

Blair Hagen: My pleasure. Any time. We're, I, we're real close here.

Travis Bader: Yes, we are.

Blair Hagen: You know, I can sh- just shoot on, uh, over any time, uh, you got a subject or a topic or an issue that, uh, you wanna cover with Canada's National Farmers Association.

Travis Bader: Absolutely always welcome. Thank you.

Blair Hagen: All right. Thank [01:43:00] you.